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    <title type="text">Sam Harris.org Reader Forum</title>
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    <id>tag:samharris.org,2012:12:18</id>


    <entry>
      <title>Pretty Excited! Book is On The Way!</title>
      <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://www.samharris.org/forum/viewthread/17076/" />      
      <id>tag:samharris.org,2012:forum/viewthread/.17076</id>
      <published>2012-12-18T12:56:25Z</published>
      <updated>0</updated>
      <author><name>hereweare</name></author>
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      <![CDATA[
        <p>I am pretty excited. I have to watch what I spend closely. However, I was in a &#8220;use it or lose it&#8221; situation with a few dollars. So, I  treated myself to a Sam Harris book &#8220;Letter to a Christian Nation&#8221;&nbsp; </p>

<p>I am not affiliated with the following people, but cheap used books are available at AbeBooks . com &nbsp; </p>

<p>Type in &#8220;Sam Harris&#8221; as a phrase in the search bar. </p>

<p>Anyone know other real cheap sources of used Sam Harris books? </p>



<p>&nbsp;</p>
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    </entry>

    <entry>
      <title>the law of evolution</title>
      <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://www.samharris.org/forum/viewthread/15703/" />      
      <id>tag:samharris.org,2011:forum/viewthread/.15703</id>
      <published>2011-04-02T10:36:21Z</published>
      <updated>0</updated>
      <author><name>sanai</name></author>
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      <![CDATA[
        <p>In Swedish some scientific theories are called law, and some simply theory. For instance the theory of gravity is called the law of gravity but theory of evolution is called, as in English, a theory. </p>

<p>How about changing the name from theory of evolution to the &#8220;law of evolution&#8221;? It sounds more powerful, unquestionable and  I think that we have for a long  time reached a level of certainty about the validity of the theory so that it is justifiable to call it a law of science.</p>

<p>I thought of this when watching a couple of years old lecture by Professor Dawkins where he speaks about consciousness raising and the importance of the correct use of language when speaking about a catholic child vs child of catholic parents where the latter would be the correct term since the child does not know what he/she prefers and thus is being labeled.</p>

<p>Although this move will not by any means win the battle I think when new people would come across the term it would  give evolution a higher stature.</p>

<p>I think that psychologically it is easy to dismiss something like &#8220;just a theory&#8221; but to dismiss a law, at least in my mind seems a bit harder. </p>

<p>What do you think?</p>
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    </entry>

    <entry>
      <title>Please help answers these two criticisms about Letter to a Christian Nation</title>
      <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://www.samharris.org/forum/viewthread/15629/" />      
      <id>tag:samharris.org,2011:forum/viewthread/.15629</id>
      <published>2011-03-02T19:55:25Z</published>
      <updated>0</updated>
      <author><name>benharper31415</name></author>
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      <![CDATA[
        <p>Hi, I&#8217;m a huge fan of Harris and am currently arguing about his book (Letter to a Christian Nation) with some Christian friends of mine.&nbsp; I would appreciate your help with the following two criticisms:</p>

<p>1)</p>

<p>On p. 20, Harris writes (regarding the ten commandments), &#8220;The first four of these ... have nothing to do&#8230;with morality.&#8221;&nbsp; Although the first four commandments do not concern our relationship with other human beings, they do concern our relationship with ourselves and god. But certainly our relationship with ourselves (and God, if you already believe Christianity) will impact our relationships with others.&nbsp; </p>

<p>2)</p>

<p>On p. 76, Harris writes/quotes, “If there is a God, he has an inordinate fondness for Beetles [as there are now 350,000 known species of beetles].&nbsp; One would have hope that an observation this devastating would have closed the book on creationism for all time.&#8221;&nbsp; Could someone please make his argument much more explicit for my sake.&nbsp; My Christian friends aren’t buying it, and I’m not selling it well <img src="smile.gif" width="19" height="19" alt="smile" style="border:0;" /></p>

<p>I really appreciate any help you might give me.</p>
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    </entry>

    <entry>
      <title>Pope Benedict &amp;amp; the Church</title>
      <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://www.samharris.org/forum/viewthread/15549/" />      
      <id>tag:samharris.org,2011:forum/viewthread/.15549</id>
      <published>2011-02-01T17:06:40Z</published>
      <updated>0</updated>
      <author><name>Delboy1212</name></author>
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      <![CDATA[
        <p>What do you think motivated the Pope and the Catholic Church in general to cover up the sex abuse scandal?</p>

<p>Do you think it was simply embarrassment? Reputation?</p>

<p>Maybe they thought it would all go away if it was all swept under the rug.</p>

<p>Does this say something about how dangerous religion is itself? That its &#8220;squeky clean&#8221; image must come before the truth.</p>
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    </entry>

    <entry>
      <title>Empirical Morality</title>
      <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://www.samharris.org/forum/viewthread/15507/" />      
      <id>tag:samharris.org,2011:forum/viewthread/.15507</id>
      <published>2011-01-19T15:39:18Z</published>
      <updated>0</updated>
      <author><name>Avdhut</name></author>
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      <![CDATA[
        <p>Came across this discussion in the forum and would like to introduce my reply as a topic for discussion.<br />
It comes after &#8216;...clouds of reason.&#8217;</p>

<p>Thank you</p>

<p><br />
<i></p>

<blockquote><div class="quote_author">waltercat - 17 February 2009 08:41 PM</div><blockquote><p><b>If God does not exist, objective moral values do not exist</b> (1a)<br />
Objective moral values do exist<br />
Therefore, God Exists</p>
</blockquote>

<p>The above is an argument.&nbsp; It has two premises and a conclusion.&nbsp; The first premise is: &#8220;If God does not exist, objective moral values do not exist.&#8221;&nbsp; The second premise is &#8220;Objective moral values do exist.&#8221; and the conclusion is &#8220;God exists.&#8221;</p>

<p>The conclusion does validly follow from the premises via the rule of Modus Tollens (more on this later, if needed), not Modus Ponens.</p>

<p>More to the point, though the above argument does have (1a) as a premise, it is crucial to recognize that (1a) is not the same as the argument in which (1a) occurs.&nbsp; Obvious, right?&nbsp; The above argument contains much more information than (1a) by itself.</p>

<p>Why is this important? For many reasons. Perhaps the most important is that a person can believe that (1a) is true and yet believe that the second premise and the conclusion are both false.&nbsp; That is, believing that (1a) is true does not commit one to believing that either the second premise or the conclusion are true.</p>

<p>Here is an analogy:</p>

<p>Premise <i>i</i>:&nbsp; If there is life on Mars, then we are not alone in the universe.<br />
Premise <i>ii</i>: There is life on Mars.<br />
Conclusion: We are not alone in the universe.</p>

<p>I can believe Premise <i>i</i> and still maintain that Premise <i>ii</i> and the conclusion are both false.&nbsp; Right?</p>

<p>Another example:</p>

<p>Premise <i>i</i>: If there is life on Mars, then we are not alone in the universe.<br />
Premise <i>iii</i>: We ARE alone in the universe.<br />
Conclusion:&nbsp; There is no life on Mars.</p>

<p>Again, I can believe that Premise <i>i</i> is true and still maintain that Premise <i>iii</i> is false and the conclusion is false.&nbsp; </p>

<p><br />
So, it is crucial to distinguish between a conditional statement and an argument in which the conditional statement occurs as a premise.&nbsp; You have been confusing the conditional statement (1a) with an argument in which it occurs.</p>
</blockquote><p></i></p>

<p><b>To dispel the &#8216;clouds of reason&#8217;...</b></p>

<p>God exists in so far as the word &#8216;God&#8217; came form the mind of mankind in a bid to understand one&#8217;s relationship to everything. In that respect God is a concept and exists as such. In respect to the deeper significance of why the concept originated, the closest we can come to that is to conceptualise the highest aspirations of mankind, there it comes down to choice and freewill, and an understanding of evolution, the apparent order in chaos. So the decision has to be made, WHAT is God !? In it&#8217;s subtlest form, (and perhaps most chaotic for the mind/ego to accept ) God IS&#8230;simple as that ([hypothesis] Ref: Isreal - Hebrew Trans: God-Fighting; the name given to Jacob by &#8216;God&#8217; upon his wrestling with his conscience ), but in so far as how mankind conducts himself for the best possible outcome for the most individuals (all men being created essentially equal), &#8216;God&#8217;, or the ultimate Go[o]d, is truth and love&#8230;and we all know that absolute truth is inconcievable ( beyond concept ) so there&#8217;s one thing left to work with, and for that one needs to know oneself, beyond emotions, and intellect&#8230;it&#8217;s about how people FEEL nad what is the feeling most conducive to achieving the truth ( what is TRUE being that which has the right aim ), and how should that aim be achieved. THAT was what the word &#8216;Religion&#8217; was first used for, the search for one&#8217;s self.</p>

<p>The debate really need to move beyond &#8216;sides&#8217; and differences to what there is in common witnin all of us and how we are going to utilise that commonality to achieve what we NEED, and we have to WANT that if there is going to be any &#8216;real&#8217; progress. For that we have to make the right choices using what little freedom we have to choose, based upon experience. It takes courage and the willingness to live by example, REGARDLESS of the opinions of others. Evolution has provided us with all we require in that respect, most notably the ability to make compassionate decisions with respect to our affairs with one another. </p>

<p>Religion as an aspiration became estranged the moment Socrates was condemned by the Athenian elite who saw him as a threat to their paedophilia, cronyism, and unwilingness to extend themselves beyond the concepts of expression of ape-like aggression and debauchery. </p>

<p>In order to evolve in a benign manner we need to make the right choices. For that we have to go beyond what we think to what we feel, and there is empiricism in that, governed by the autonomous nervous system, where our emotions/sympathetic and intellect/parasympathetic meet.</p>
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    </entry>

    <entry>
      <title>Another letter from a Christian</title>
      <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://www.samharris.org/forum/viewthread/15156/" />      
      <id>tag:samharris.org,2010:forum/viewthread/.15156</id>
      <published>2010-09-08T18:52:08Z</published>
      <updated>0</updated>
      <author><name>juliajael</name></author>
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      <![CDATA[
        <p>Hi forum folks. After having read Mr. Harris&#8217; book, I wrote up a reply without thinking that he would probably never read it. Your eyes and feedback are just as valuable as Mr. Harris&#8217;, so I submit it here without changes. Peace.</p>

<p><br />
Dear Mr. Harris,</p>

<p>My name is Julia and I’m a recent college graduate living in British Columbia. This summer I read your book Letter to a Christian Nation. No doubt receiving replies to it is now, for you, old news. Nevertheless, I feel compelled to write. </p>

<p>I made many long drafts of this letter that began by enumerating all the points on which I agree with you. The idea was that if you were made to realize that there are Christians who believe, as you do, that (for instance) Christian politicians ought not to try to legislate Christian values – by, for example, resisting the promulgation of an HPV vaccination on the grounds that HPV deters premarital sex, or by fighting tooth and nail the institution of gay marriage – you might be caused to acknowledge (or at least consider) the existence of Christians worthy of your intellectual respect. </p>

<p>Because a respectable, wholesome, holistic intellectual credibility is the one characteristic that you believe it impossible to attribute to anyone who calls him or herself a Christian. Your Letter is scathing. Contemplating theological questions is “a hilarious, terrifying, unconscionable waste of time,” period. (66) You treat all religious beliefs as they were simply obviously false. Muslim beliefs are foolish to you, and you bank on Christians having the same intuition, hoping in the end to show them that they can be no more assured of their own religious beliefs than Muslims can be of theirs. (“...every devout Muslim has the same reasons for being a Muslim that you have for being a Christian&#8230;[But] isn’t it obvious that Muslims are fooling themselves?” (6-7)) </p>

<p>No, it is not obvious. It is not at all obvious, and this line of argument is all but begging fundamentalist Christians to forsake critical thinking and any effort to reasonable judgement. I, for one, am convinced that Muslims are mistaken, but I don’t leap to the conclusion that therefore they’re all loonies. I suspect that many of them believe certain details about the life and identity of Muhammad and the nature of the Koran on the basis of what you and I would both consider to be good reasons in ordinary circumstances: the testimony of trusted family and friends, and historical accounts of the life of Muhammad, for example. This does not change the fact that they hold false beliefs, but it’s worse than a waste of paper – because it encourages closed-minded irrationality – to simply treat Islam as a joke.</p>

<p>You paint a picture of Christians as morally impoverished, prioritizing a political agenda that causes more suffering than it does good. Yes, there are Christians who fit your description. But surely you must realize that yet others have a totally different interpretation of what it means to be a follower of Christ? An interpretation that is notably lacking the American-fundamentalist urgency of integrating church and state, but nevertheless an interpretation that agrees with that of the authors of the gospels: that Jesus is God, was sent by God to reconcile God to men, performed miracles, laid down his life, and took it up again three days after he was crucified.</p>

<p>There are millions such as these who will feel your Letter is not addressed to them; that you talk past them; that your arguments fail to penetrate the heart of Christianity. These Christians are prepared to agree with much of what you say. They are not your enemies. And yet you alienate them by presuming them idiots.&nbsp; </p>

<p>I am ready to agree with you that extreme cruelty and devastating harm has been carried out by Christians in the name of Christ. Christianity’s history has some dark and nasty chapters, and it would be heedless for contemporary Christians to forget these entirely. But it is just as short-sighted to judge Christ’s teachings based on someone else’s interpretation of them – which is what we are doing if dismiss Christianity because of the evil that purports itself to be committed in its name. As you yourself point out, “even if atheism led straight to moral chaos, this would not suggest that the doctrine of Christianity is true.” (46)</p>

<p>I am ready to agree with you that many of the commandments found in the Old Testament do not agree with our moral intuitions. Reason and Conscience are the best tools we have with respect to the pursuit of morality, and we should guard them against a blind adherence to dogma. That said, it is foolishness to reject the Bible in its entirety merely because it contains accounts of deeds that we find morally questionable. As you know, the Bible is a complex book containing many genres, and written over a span of thousands of years by many authors from regions and cultures dissimilar from our own. Different parts have been written for different purposes. Just like any other historical document, the Bible is a text the reading of which requires discernment, interpretation, and relevant historical and cultural contextual knowledge to fully understand the import and intent, and thus its relevance for us today. This does not mean that it can’t contain either contain historical truths or actual revelation from God.</p>

<p>But in addition to these things, I also believe Jesus’ life, death, and resurrection to be vital to the ultimate flourishing of our souls. Who Jesus is matters. Whether we believe Jesus is who he said he was matters. Not only because our beliefs about this influence what metaphysical/spiritual beliefs we end up holding, but because they also matter to the condition of our souls. I know you understand this. Perhaps for us Christians to believe such things doesn’t bother you as long as we keep our noses out of politics&#8230; but I rather think not. There exist millions of non-fundamental, non-liberal Christians who love Jesus and strive to live their lives for him. We find the gospels compelling, convincing, believable. Please start there.<br />
Sincerely Yours,</p>

<p>Julia Neufeld<br />
Victoria BC</p>
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    </entry>

    <entry>
      <title>A Filipino Priest Tries to Refute Harris</title>
      <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://www.samharris.org/forum/viewthread/14637/" />      
      <id>tag:samharris.org,2010:forum/viewthread/.14637</id>
      <published>2010-03-20T08:19:37Z</published>
      <updated>0</updated>
      <author><name>pinoy_atheist</name></author>
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      <![CDATA[
        <p>I&#8217;ve found an article in a Philippine broadsheet called Manila Standard,&nbsp; a response on Sam Harris&#8217; book &#8220;A letter to a Christian nation&#8221; and it is writer by a man of faith.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.samharris.org/?URL=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.manilastandardtoday.com%2FinsideOpinion.htm%3Ff%3D2010%2Fmarch%2F8%2Franhilioaquino.isx%26d%3D2010%2Fmarch%2F8">A letter to Sam Harris by Fr. Ranhilio Callangan Aquino</a></p>
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    </entry>

    <entry>
      <title>If Biology was Math in the U.S.A. (United States Asylum)</title>
      <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://www.samharris.org/forum/viewthread/12854/" />      
      <id>tag:samharris.org,2009:forum/viewthread/.12854</id>
      <published>2009-07-09T20:12:19Z</published>
      <updated>0</updated>
      <author><name>unsmoked</name></author>
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      <![CDATA[
        <p>In the U.S.A. a child goes to school and learns that 2+2=4.&nbsp; He shares this knowledge at home and is told, &#8220;No.&nbsp; 2+2=5.&#8221;<br />
To support this, the parents take the child to Sunday school and the Sunday school teacher confirms the assertion that 2+2=5.</p>

<p>Convinced that 2+2=5, this child would not advance to second grade <i>if this was a country with true separation of church and state.</i>&nbsp; If the child was unable to learn the truth they would be placed in a special school for the retarded.</p>

<p>As it is, children who are retarded by religious upbringing are allowed to graduate from high school.&nbsp; Sam Harris has reminded us that some of these people go on to college for the sole purpose of obtaining &#8216;credentials&#8217; so that, as <i>academic authorities</i>, they can refute and confound scientific knowledge.&nbsp; In the U.S. such people are actually in demand as lobbyists or advisors to administrations like G.W. Bush&#8217;s, coal companies, oil companies, tobacco companies, intelligent design proponents, opponents of stem cell research, developers who want to convince the public that unchecked growth is progress, that the melting of polar ice is cyclic and natural, and so on.&nbsp; </p>

<p>Sam Harris writes in his &#8216;Letter to a Christian Nation&#8217; -</p>

<p>&#8220;. . . more than half our neighbors believe that the . . . first members of our species were fashioned out of dirt and divine breath, in a garden with a talking snake, by the hand of an invisible God.</p>

<p>&#8220;Among developed nations, America stands alone in these convictions.&nbsp; Our country now appears, as at no other time in her history, like a lumbering, bellicose, dim-witted giant.&nbsp; Anyone who cares about the fate of civilization would do well to recognize that the combination of great power and great stupidity is simply terrifying, even to one&#8217;s friends.&#8221;</p>
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    <entry>
      <title>An up&#45;and&#45;coming Muslim Europe&#63;</title>
      <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://www.samharris.org/forum/viewthread/12539/" />      
      <id>tag:samharris.org,2009:forum/viewthread/.12539</id>
      <published>2009-06-01T17:54:13Z</published>
      <updated>0</updated>
      <author><name>unsmoked</name></author>
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        <p>&#8220;Let us briefly consider where our discordant reigious certainties are leading us on a global scale.&nbsp; The earth is now home to about 1.4 billion Muslims, many of whom believe that one day you and I will either convert to Islam, live in subjugation to a Muslim caliphate, or be put to death for our unbelief.&nbsp; </p>

<p>Islam is now the fastest-growing religion in Europe.&nbsp; The birthrate among European Muslims is three times that of their non-Muslim neighbors.&nbsp; If current trends continue, France will be a majority-Muslim country in twenty-five years - and that is if immigration were to stop tomorrow.&nbsp; </p>

<p>Throughout Europe, Muslim communities often show little inclination to acquire the secular and civil values of their host countries, and yet they exploit these values to the utmost, demanding tolerance for their misogyny, their anti-Semitism, and the religious hatred that is regularly preached in their mosques.&nbsp; Forced marriages, honor killings, punitive gang rapes, and a homicidal loathing of homosexuals are now features of an otherwise secular Europe, courtesy of Islam.&nbsp; </p>

<p>Political correctness and the fear of racism have made many Europeans reluctant to oppose the terrifying religious commitments of the extremists in their midst.&nbsp; With a few exceptions, the only public figures who have had the courage to speak honestly about the threat that Islam now poses to European society seem to be fascists.&nbsp; This does not bode well for the future of civilization.&#8221; </p>

<p>Sam Harris - &#8216;LETTER TO A CHRISTIAN NATION&#8217; - pages 83, 84, 85</p>
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    <entry>
      <title>A Letter to Forum Christians</title>
      <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://www.samharris.org/forum/viewthread/11837/" />      
      <id>tag:samharris.org,2009:forum/viewthread/.11837</id>
      <published>2009-03-01T21:06:11Z</published>
      <updated>0</updated>
      <author><name>unsmoked</name></author>
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      <![CDATA[
        <p>Dear Christian Forum Member,</p>

<p>&#8220;I have no doubt that your acceptance of Christ coincided with some very positive changes in your life.&nbsp; Perhaps you now love other people in a way that you never imagined possible.&nbsp; You may even experience feelings of bliss while praying. </p>

<p>I don&#8217;t wish to denigrate any of these experiences.&nbsp; I would point out, however, that billions of other human beings, in every time and place, have had similar experiences - but they had them while thinking about Krishna, or Allah, or the Buddha, while making art or music, or while contemplating the beauty of Nature.</p>

<p>There is no question that it is possible for people to have profoundly transformative experiences.&nbsp; And there is no question that it is possible for them to misinterpret these experiences, and to further delude themselves about the nature of reality.&nbsp; You are, of course, right to believe that there is more to life than simply understanding the structure and contents of the universe,&nbsp; But this does not make unjustified (and unjustifiable) claims about its structure and contents any more respectable.&#8221;</p>

<p>Sincerely, Sam Harris<br />
(page 89, Letter to a Christian Nation)</p>
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