Race Riots in Australia
Posted: 12 December 2005 09:21 AM   [ Ignore ]  
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I'm sure most of you would have already read about the riots that have happened in Sydney over the weekend. There are many factors that contributed to it: the gang-rapes in 2001 wherein the perpetrators were Lebanese youth looking for 'white girls', harrasment of white women at beaches by Lebanese; Aussie shock-jockeys encouraging the riots; the instigation from white-supremist groups etc. The bashing of two white Australian lifeguards by Lebanese gangs was the straw that broke the camel's back, sp to speak.

It was a sad day for Australia because the riots targetted anybody who looked like they were from Middle-Eastern descent. It also turned somewhat anti-Islamic. Innocent bystanders were bashed, girls had their headscarves torn off, some were chased; One rioter had written on him, "Save the 'Nulla (referring to Cronulla where the beach was in dispute), F**k Allah!' There were 5000 drunken hooligans, most of them acting no better than the Lebanese who bashed the lifeguards.  The retaliation by the Arab community was just as sickening but to be expected.

Here's a google news search for further reading.

Now, as this forum deals with issues of faith, I think it is interesting the extent to which a Muslim community can really integrate within its host nation, particularly a liberal-democratic nation, given a few of the cultural tenants of Islam.

There are a few issues that strike me as worthy of more attention.

1. Muslims' attitudes towards women in the West. After the gang-rapes in 2001, there were reports saying that some Muslim clerics apportioned some of the blame onto the hapless victims on account of their suggestive dress. How can there be real integration when many Muslims think that Western women are 'sluts' or 'whores' because they have the freedom to dress as they please?

2. The Islamic ban on alcohol consumption and the halal food requirement. It is part of Australia's culture to have a few drinks after work with your mates or to have a barbecue on the weekend etc. How can Muslim people really integrate when they do not, or cannot join in with the working class on so many fronts? Sure, they can sit and not drink or have halal food specially prepared for them, but the very religiosity of such people have them already distanced from the majority of Australian people who are inherently sceptical towards religion. It is unlikely they will be invited very often.

3. The belief that Muslims are superior to disbelievers. The Qur'an, as we know, tells us in many places the inferiority of the disbeliever. The moderates play this part down but it's always going to be psychologically present, so long as one has faith in Allah.

These are just a few points I wanted to get off my chest. I'm beginning to think that integration of Muslims into Western liberal democracies (or just about anywhere really) is doomed to fail. Islam has too many cultural restraints, from dress, to food, to attitudes etc. that prevent them from being truly immersed into the culture of their adopted homes, and the bonds of faith and Arab culture are too strong for most Muslims to break free from. I look at France and Australia and I wonder how long it's going to be for these types of riots to propel themselves elsewhere. 'Tis a tad unsettling. What do other people here think about Muslim integration? Can it ever be succesful?

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Posted: 12 December 2005 11:21 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]  
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I don’t think this a problem that is exclusive to Islam.  It is a problem for anyone who adheres to a black and white reading of their religious texts.  Ultra-orthodox Jews and lot’s of fundamentalist Christian groups in America simply create isloated communities within the larger culture.  They don’t integrate much, but they typically aren’t very violent either.  But, they’ve had lot’s of practice in navigating the tides in which they swim against.  For new immigrants, this may be more difficult, and violence may indeed be a result.  Again, I have Muslim, Jewish, and Christian friends, but none of them takes every word written in their holy books as literal.  They can all take a drink, eat bacon, dance, sing, wear hip-huggers, listen to Eminem, and still help the less fortunate among us.  They have integrated their chosen spiritual paths with the communities in which they live and because they have thrown off the rigid thou shalts and thou shalt nots, they are productive and happy and they don’t feel the need to kill, hurt or convert those that have chosen a different way.

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Posted: 12 December 2005 12:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]  
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dfhusky, what have you to fear from Christians?

LOL, obviously, you’ve errored in your previous post. Might want to exclude Christians when discussing oppression. However, do include Christianity when discussing liberty.

Thank you.

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Posted: 12 December 2005 01:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]  
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What about the territorial behavior of the locals (established australian’s probably can trace their migrant roots to somewhere overseas) I’m sure they recon its their bloody beach. ..and visitor ‘must’ obey their social rules….its public property remember.

Nope its not the “muslims” ...it takes two to tango mate.
What about the pissheads who bash and rape ...this thread is sounding very racist imo. Who cares who started it! All sides are to blame now…

lorenzum where are you from…. do you recall the very different social attitudes of the past era migrants? I think your focus on Islam is way too extreme. The catholics had similar attitudes decades ago. Anything thats ‘different’ is viewed suspiciously. Have you read the domestic violence stats lately…or the rape victims stats….? Have a look to see what’s going on before called it “islam’..

So yeah…I think that people of any nation can live together - its not like all Arabs are evil bastards is it.

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Posted: 12 December 2005 01:57 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]  
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As usual Champ, I have no fucking idea what you are talking about.  Where did I say I was afraid of Christians, as if they were all the same.  Jesus, quit being such a simp!  Are you claiming that the Amish are well integrated into American culture?  Or how about fundamentalist Mormons who still practice polygamy?  That’s who I was talking about.  And did I say anything about denying them the liberty to practice their religion?  No, I didn’t.  I don’t think they should be able to marry multiple young girls, though.  Do you?  That’s isn’t what this post was talking about in the first place.

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Posted: 12 December 2005 02:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]  
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Come on, Chump, read End Of Faith (or ANY history for that matter).  Christians are what they are today because SECULARISM has editted their (your) religion.  What liberty was there when heretics were burned alive?

Via Darwinian-styled evolution and survival techniques (whether done consciously or not), Christianity has adopted SECULAR ideas in order to stay afloat.  It’s as plain as the nose on your face.

Even the Muslims are starting to figure this out: The Mecca Declaration from this month’s Mecca Conference is vowing to stamp out extremist thought .  Now THERE’S something to celebrate.  Based on what I’ve heard and read of Mr. Harris, he was more than skeptical something like this would happen from the previously unheard of moderate Muslims.  That’s not to say the world is now saved from jihad, but for ANY group of Muslims to tap the brakes when it comes to extremist thoughts HAS to be a victory in all of our books.

Really, this Mecca Dec. is kind of the same story of the Christians awakening from their Inquisition Orgy: they started justifying the killing of their own faithful!!  Do THAT too much and you start running out of faithful.  Not only because you’re killing them, but because your leaving behind all their grieving friends and family.  Maybe this Mecca Dec. is the first sign that this jihadist/martyrdom crap has run its course.  (If I believed in Him) God I hope so.

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Posted: 13 December 2005 01:06 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]  
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Check out this article in the Detroit Free Press:

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051128/NEWS05/511280338/1073/YAK

I looked this up because I used to live in the Detroit area and had the impression that many Muslims have lived there for a very long time and have done quite well. There’s no discrimination against them in terms of education or jobs, many have become at least upper middle class, and they’re integrated into the neighborhoods. There are Muslim doctors, professors, politicians, the whole range of possible occupations including ordinary workers, and nobody thinks twice about whether they’re Muslim or not. Detroit and the surrounding area has the largest population of Arabs outside the Middle East. I’m sure it helps that many of them moved there around WW I, so there’s a long tradition of integration, but newcomers also seem to be well received and to be getting along very well with everyone else. Detroit’s a city with a long history of race riots and general bigotry, but not against Arabs.

So yes, there’s hope that Muslim populations can be accepted within Western societies.

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Posted: 13 December 2005 08:20 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]  
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I wish I could be optimistic about this situation, but it is very hard to be when Islam is so different than any other religion on the planet.  We knock the Christians a lot, and they probably deserve it, but they aren’t strapping bombs to their bodies – yet, at least not in this country anyway.

Moslems only have three ways to deal with infidels, according to the Qu’ran, no other options are allowed.  They may subjugate and tax them; convert them; or kill them!

Many of the darker aberrations of Christianity have been due to certain interpretations of certain passages in the bible.  The three options are spelled out in the Qu’ran, and have but one interpretation.  How the hell can we or any civilized country allow these people in our midst and offer them free practice of their religion?

IMHO, there will be many more outbreaks of violence such as the recent riots in France and Sydney.  How could there not be?

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Posted: 13 December 2005 02:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]  
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[quote author=“snakechic”]What about the territorial behavior of the locals (established australian’s probably can trace their migrant roots to somewhere overseas) I’m sure they recon its their bloody beach. ..and visitor ‘must’ obey their social rules….its public property remember.

You are right, the locals have a history of pride in ‘their’ beach. The majority of the people there are Anglo-Saxon in origin. In the 60s, the local beach fights were against the Westies (working class types from the West side) and the Surfies (local surfers). The problem today is different in that these Lebanese gangs have for too long disrespected Australian culture. The beach is a huge part of Aussie culture and it has always been an open place for families and all to enjoy. For the last few years however, these Lebanese gangs have regularly hassled people on the beach and subjected the women to abuse and insult. When they bashed the lifeguards, people who volunteer to help and protect people on the beach, that was too much. The Aussies got pissed off and made a stand. I disagree with the violence used against innocent bystanders, and the racial rhetoric, but I do think something had to change. Too bad the decision was left up to bigots and idiots.

[quote author=“snakechic”]Nope its not the “muslims” ...it takes two to tango mate.
What about the pissheads who bash and rape ...this thread is sounding very racist imo. Who cares who started it! All sides are to blame now…

Believe me, I’m the last person on earth who would be a racist, nor do I think racism can be defined by looking at the sociological problems Islam has in the West - which is all I’m doing. They are merely perceptions from what I know about Islam and what I know from Western culture.

The “pissheads” who used violence and racism the other day are totally blameworthy - but that was a reaction, not a cause.

This thread is not about pointing fingers at who was to blame, but whether integration of Muslims into western societies can really be achieved.

lorenzum where are you from…. do you recall the very different social attitudes of the past era migrants? I think your focus on Islam is way too extreme. The catholics had similar attitudes decades ago. Anything thats ‘different’ is viewed suspiciously. Have you read the domestic violence stats lately…or the rape victims stats….? Have a look to see what’s going on before called it “islam’..

I cannot tell you where I am from but I have spent most of my life in Australia. I do not think my focus on Islam is too extreme simply because I know that there are alot of things in Islam, which if taken to the fundamental level, produce great problems between ‘believers’ and ‘kafirs’. Thankfully, the extremists in Islam are a minority. Furthermore, the Lebanese gangs are most probably very irreligious - I know the types. They’ll smoke, steal, bash, abuse etc while neglecting all their prayers and Islamic duties. They are however, a product of their parents’ and country’s cultural beliefs that have not been sufficiently tamed for Western societies. I’m wondering if that’s the problem.

So yeah…I think that people of any nation can live together - its not like all Arabs are evil bastards is it.

Of course not all Arabs are “evil bastards”. Some of the nicest people I’ve met in my life were Arabs. But I do think Islam has some very anti-social strains going through it which make it difficult for Muslims to integrate to the same level of success of people of other backgrounds. That’s my whole point.

[quote author=“hampsteadpete”]Moslems only have three ways to deal with infidels, according to the Qu’ran, no other options are allowed. They may subjugate and tax them; convert them; or kill them!

This part of Islam is often misunderstood. These are the rules that apply only when an Islamic State has the power to do such a thing. They do not have any relevance to Muslims unless and until they are in such a state. For Muslims residing in the West, because they are weaker in strength and numbers, the best form of spreading Islam is through da’wah - preaching, exhortation and being an example of Islam by trying to live a good Islamic life. The threat above is what may await us if Bin Laden and his ilk ever get their way, and strength to do it. The terrorist killings we see in the West (and elsewhere) today are all steps towards achieving that State. We have nothing to fear in that respect until that has been achieved, and even then, a necessary amount of strength to achieve it successfully is required before such an offensive jihad will take place. So these rules of subjugation needn’t worry us from the Muslims living in the West - they don’t apply.

[quote author=“MJ”]Check out this article in the Detroit Free Press:

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051128/NEWS05/511280338/1073/YAK

Thanks MJ. I suppose it can happen. Might take a few more generations though and some forward thinking from the progressive elements. Fundamentalist Islam though will always be a hindrance. I don’t think that can be avoided.

Some good points raised by dfhusky too.

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Posted: 14 December 2005 03:59 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]  
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I was in Australia last year and had a good time.

I have mixed feelings about the riots. I was raised a Christian and was taught to turn the other cheek.  But many times this turns you into a doormat for continuous abuse.  One day I had enough, and like little Ralphy in the movie “A Christmas Story” I went medieval on my bully, kick the crap out of him.  After that he left me alone.  The Australians have been taking abuse from Muslims since the Bali bombings.  And the sad truth is Muslims view us westerners as weak, because we don’t riot after events like 9-11, Bali or the riots in Paris.  Instead, we westerners are told that we, the victims, must learn to be more tolerant of Islam.
Muslims on the other hand will riot about everything.
The irony of the riots, is that the Muslim street will developed some respect for western street, that while our government may talk tolerance and multiculturalism, its citizens are not going to be like sleep to the slaughter. Ultimately you can’t reason will bullies, they only understand force, power and fear.

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Posted: 15 December 2005 08:55 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]  
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Thanks for the post. I didn’t read any thing racist into it. You were just pointing out an obvious example of the way that religion divides us. That was a major theme in EOF.
I agree with your point that Muslims don’t assimilate well. I think Sam spent a whole chapter pointing that out.
When I saw a story about the roits in Aus. I was thinking the same thing. In fact watching the news the other night I was struck by how many stories centered around people of different religions fighting with one another. One in particular caught my attention. An Iraqi voter was being interviewed and she said that they would vote for the canidate that represented her faith. The other story that I found frightening was the report that the Iranian president gave a speach where he denied the holocost ever happened. Nothing is scarier than a world leader with irrational beliefs.

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