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The War on Traditional Values
Posted: 29 May 2008 08:17 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]  
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[quote author=“TheChampion”] Bruce, your logic incites pity from those Christians who have heard this faulty logic being spread around before. If I got an army and one of those soldiers does something wrong, do I negate the results of the entire army? For example, in San Diego last week there was a murdered soldier found in San Clemente and the culprit turned out to be another soldier from Camp Penelton near San Diego. Using your logic, people would be criticizing the army. But sound reasoning and critical thinking skills were applied by the media and others and the soldier in question was demonized while the armies reputation remained intact.

Champ, the church is not the military. The church is supposed to be the salt of the earth. You used the same faulty logic you object to when you argued that Hollywood is destroying traditional values. Hollywood is a small percentage of the nation, just as the soldier you mentioned is a small percentage of the army. But the church is the body of Christ, and is supposed to be pure and spotless. Jesus himself said that when the salt has lost its savor, it is useless. It is the church that is charged with being salt and light, not Hollywood. 

[quote author=“TheChampion”]Conversly speaking, here you go on spouting off (and you are a believer??? I might need to recaculate my thoughts on you) about a 1 percent issue in the church at large.

You are resorting to ad hominem attacks rather early in this exchange. As I have clearly stated and continue to state, I believe in the same Jesus that you believe in - the Jesus that is portrayed in the Gospels. I don’t question your faith, and you have no right to question mine.

[quote author=“TheChampion”]For every one pastor who scandalously brings reproach on the church, there are 1200 pastors out there preaching the gospel, praying for the sick, overseeing proverty outreaches and so on and so on. Bruce, you ought to be ashamed of yourself using fautly numeric logic to advance a useless point regarding the church. Judgement does begin at the house of God and it probably begins with he who raises his hand against God’s annointed. I would be praying for forgiveness if I were you, my friend, ;-) ;-)

If Hollywood is important in this war on values, how much more important are the actions of church leaders?  I’m including myself in this assessment of the church, Champ. I pray for forgiveness every day. I am not raising my hand against the Lord’s anointed - I have no intention of harming the body of Christ. But a disease has to be diagnosed before it can be cured. One source of the disease is that church leaders, on both the left and the right, have been too quick to align themselves with political positions. Politics are inherently corrupt from a spiritual standpoint, and pastors who dabble in that realm infect the body of Christ with that disease. Our commission is to make disciples, not get involved in politics. Separation of church and state is good for both the church and the state. If we went about doing good like Jesus, there would be less justification for the rest of the world to criticize us. As it is, the criticism is justified.

[quote author=“TheChampion”]But to expound further, and hitting the core issue from your message, you want me to describe the “traditional values.” Folks, ladies and germs, err, gentlemen, it is a sad day in American when one has to describe those universal values which has served this country so well for so long. It makes one apprehensive for the future, knowing that traditional values are based on the 10 commandments and people who do not follow the 10 commandments will find themselves on the wrong side of the ball when it comes to the Lord.

I continue to be amazed at Christians who invoke the Torah as the standard by which everyone should live. We Christians can’t even live by it ourselves, so why expect non-believers to? It didn’t work for ancient Israel, and it won’t work for us. That is why there is a New Covenant in Jesus. Love, forgiveness and faith trump the law any day.

By the way, isn’t it true that the 10 Commandments condemn adultery, but do not mention homosexuality?  So, if you want to condemn homosexuality, you have to go to one of the other 613 or so commandments. But if you want to go by the Torah, you can’t pick and choose. So if you want the Torah’s homosexual laws to be the standard for society, you also have to take the food and clothing laws, as well.  So, have you eaten any bacon or shrimp recently? Or are you wearing any cotton/polyester blends? Shame on you. Furthermore, have you done any physical labor from Friday at sundown to Saturday at sundown? You broke the Sabbath and should be stoned. (The Sabbath hasn’t changed to Sunday, by the way.) Have you coveted or lusted? You broke some more commandments. Why do you want to put everyone back under the Torah when Jesus came to fulfill it and free people from its curse? I simply do not understand.

[quote author=“TheChampion”]Humble thyselves before the Lord and seek his face before the day of the Lord arrives, that terrible day when God’s wrath will be revealed.

Indeed. What must I (or anyone else) do to be saved? Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. The 10 Commandments and the Religious Right (or Left) can’t help you.

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Posted: 30 May 2008 08:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]  
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Bruce Burleson - 29 May 2008 12:17 PM

Champ, the church is not the military. The church is supposed to be the salt of the earth. You used the same faulty logic you object to when you argued that Hollywood is destroying traditional values. Hollywood is a small percentage of the nation, just as the soldier you mentioned is a small percentage of the army. But the church is the body of Christ, and is supposed to be pure and spotless. Jesus himself said that when the salt has lost its savor, it is useless. It is the church that is charged with being salt and light, not Hollywood.

Bruce, to disregard the effect hollywood has had on our culture is akin to being an ostrich. 

Bruce Burleson - 29 May 2008 12:17 PM

You are resorting to ad hominem attacks rather early in this exchange. As I have clearly stated and continue to state, I believe in the same Jesus that you believe in - the Jesus that is portrayed in the Gospels. I don’t question your faith, and you have no right to question mine.

Good show! My bad.

Bruce Burleson - 29 May 2008 12:17 PM

If Hollywood is important in this war on values, how much more important are the actions of church leaders?  I’m including myself in this assessment of the church, Champ. I pray for forgiveness every day. I am not raising my hand against the Lord’s anointed - I have no intention of harming the body of Christ. But a disease has to be diagnosed before it can be cured. One source of the disease is that church leaders, on both the left and the right, have been too quick to align themselves with political positions. Politics are inherently corrupt from a spiritual standpoint, and pastors who dabble in that realm infect the body of Christ with that disease. Our commission is to make disciples, not get involved in politics. Separation of church and state is good for both the church and the state. If we went about doing good like Jesus, there would be less justification for the rest of the world to criticize us. As it is, the criticism is justified.

Bruce, the problem is a church wide problem, a subtle deception that is going on, where people can’t see the forest for the trees. In other words, they talk a lot about social ills, when the FIRST thing they need to do is get people saved and committed to Jesus, THEN, THENNNNNNNNNNN, we talk about social ills. Lets not put the cart before the horse. Hey, are you saying that we should not get involved in politics? I hope you are not saying that. Because if you are given a vote and you don’t use it to propigate good, then that is sin. I mean, that is the LEAST you can do as a Christian, and it is easy. You might not go out and feed the hungry or help the poor, but you certainly can vote!

Bruce Burleson - 29 May 2008 12:17 PM

I continue to be amazed at Christians who invoke the Torah as the standard by which everyone should live. We Christians can’t even live by it ourselves, so why expect non-believers to? It didn’t work for ancient Israel, and it won’t work for us. That is why there is a New Covenant in Jesus. Love, forgiveness and faith trump the law any day.

Right, but, God did not change, the contract did (i.e., the gospel vs the law). We know God’s standards that we have to strive for, not required, but they are benchmarks, be PERFECT.

Bruce Burleson - 29 May 2008 12:17 PM

By the way, isn’t it true that the 10 Commandments condemn adultery, but do not mention homosexuality?  So, if you want to condemn homosexuality, you have to go to one of the other 613 or so commandments. But if you want to go by the Torah, you can’t pick and choose. So if you want the Torah’s homosexual laws to be the standard for society, you also have to take the food and clothing laws, as well.  So, have you eaten any bacon or shrimp recently? Or are you wearing any cotton/polyester blends? Shame on you. Furthermore, have you done any physical labor from Friday at sundown to Saturday at sundown? You broke the Sabbath and should be stoned. (The Sabbath hasn’t changed to Sunday, by the way.) Have you coveted or lusted? You broke some more commandments. Why do you want to put everyone back under the Torah when Jesus came to fulfill it and free people from its curse? I simply do not understand.

OOOOoooooooh no, nuuuuuu, not going to fall into that trap. Paul addresses this issue specifically. Eat what you want, when you want. Did not Christ say, it is not what goes into the body that is sinful, but what comes out of the heart. Ahhhh ha! Nailed it….. (love it, you got your punches in, I got mine, we’re both winners).

Bruce Burleson - 29 May 2008 12:17 PM

Indeed. What must I (or anyone else) do to be saved? Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. The 10 Commandments and the Religious Right (or Left) can’t help you.

Right oh chap, by grace alone are we saved and not by works, lest any man should boast, it is a free gift and not that of ourselves, and in my weakness to I glory for when I am weak, he is strong, and the weaker I get, the stronger he is. wink

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Posted: 01 June 2008 11:41 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]  
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TheChampion - 29 May 2008 11:09 AM

If I have to spell out traditional values to Americans, then I might as well pack it up, buy a cabin out in Montana somewhere, and wait for the apocalypse.

Please, please do pack it in, buy a cabin out in Montana somewhere, preferably with no phone or internet connection, and wait for the apocalypse.

Come to think of it, why don’t you start a community while you’re at it and invite a load of other Christian nut cases to join you, then you can be leader and boss them all around, telling them how sinful they are and stuff. Then maybe the FBI could besiege you and you could get set on fire and all go to heaven. That would be really good.

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Posted: 01 June 2008 05:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]  
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mesomorph - 01 June 2008 03:41 PM

Please, please do pack it in, buy a cabin out in Montana somewhere, preferably with no phone or internet connection, and wait for the apocalypse.

Come to think of it, why don’t you start a community while you’re at it and invite a load of other Christian nut cases to join you, then you can be leader and boss them all around, telling them how sinful they are and stuff. Then maybe the FBI could besiege you and you could get set on fire and all go to heaven. That would be really good.

Mesomorph, why such hostility? Your posts suggest an habitually irrational emotional state. When someone has the unmitigated gall to have an opposing viewpoint, your comments have an intensity, upon which, must be derived from a deeply troubled mind.

You know, Nazi concentration camp guard. You would certainly have excelled at the job.

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Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light. Matt 11:28-29

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Posted: 01 June 2008 05:37 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]  
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TheChampion - 01 June 2008 09:34 PM
mesomorph - 01 June 2008 03:41 PM

Please, please do pack it in, buy a cabin out in Montana somewhere, preferably with no phone or internet connection, and wait for the apocalypse.

Come to think of it, why don’t you start a community while you’re at it and invite a load of other Christian nut cases to join you, then you can be leader and boss them all around, telling them how sinful they are and stuff. Then maybe the FBI could besiege you and you could get set on fire and all go to heaven. That would be really good.

Mesomorph, why such hostility? Your posts suggest an habitually irrational emotional state. When someone has the unmitigated gall to have an opposing viewpoint, your comments have an intensity, upon which, must be derived from a deeply troubled mind.

You know, Nazi concentration camp guard. You would certainly have excelled at the job.


I guess telling everyone they are evil and doomed to eternal burning in hell for not believing what you do is markedly better by your skewed standards, huh chump?

You’re delusional.

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Posted: 01 June 2008 05:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]  
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NoLongerDelusional - 01 June 2008 09:37 PM

I guess telling everyone they are evil and doomed to eternal burning in hell for not believing what you do is markedly better by your skewed standards, huh chump?

You’re delusional.

Ya, but I do it with gentleness and humility. I do not condemn either because I too was a lost sinner, saved by grace alone. There is a distinct difference. Might I also mention that I am just doing what millions, no….billions have done in the past. This is normalcy.

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Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light. Matt 11:28-29

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Posted: 01 June 2008 05:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]  
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TheChampion - 01 June 2008 09:44 PM
NoLongerDelusional - 01 June 2008 09:37 PM

I guess telling everyone they are evil and doomed to eternal burning in hell for not believing what you do is markedly better by your skewed standards, huh chump?

You’re delusional.

Ya, but I do it with gentleness and humility. I do not condemn either because I too was a lost sinner, saved by grace alone. There is a distinct difference. Might I also mention that I am just doing what millions, no….billions have done in the past. This is normalcy.

Humility..sure.

So by your rationale - that if billions do something it’s right - then you are saying the 1 to 1.8 BILLION muslims are right…which in effect, makes you wrong.

Great line of thought.

best regards.

you’re delusional, btw.

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Posted: 01 June 2008 06:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]  
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NoLongerDelusional - 01 June 2008 09:48 PM

So by your rationale - that if billions do something it’s right - then you are saying the 1 to 1.8 BILLION muslims are right…which in effect, makes you wrong.

Great line of thought.

best regards.

you’re delusional, btw.

But wait! We were here first. We got first dibs on the truth-o-meter. SHOTGUN…..there, we got the front seat. Billions of converts tells me that we can’t be wrong! The law of averages and statisical measures tells me that our universal belief in a God, in the real person of Jesus Christ, in the real person of the Holy Spirit, in the real belief of the rapture, 2nd coming, and all that, allllllllllllllllllllllllll these universal beliefs among millions of meek minded Christians, we can’t be wrong. WE CAN’T BE!

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Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light. Matt 11:28-29

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Posted: 01 June 2008 06:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]  
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TheChampion - 01 June 2008 10:13 PM
NoLongerDelusional - 01 June 2008 09:48 PM

So by your rationale - that if billions do something it’s right - then you are saying the 1 to 1.8 BILLION muslims are right…which in effect, makes you wrong.

Great line of thought.

best regards.

you’re delusional, btw.

But wait! We were here first. We got first dibs on the truth-o-meter. SHOTGUN…..there, we got the front seat. Billions of converts tells me that we can’t be wrong! The law of averages and statisical measures tells me that our universal belief in a God, in the real person of Jesus Christ, in the real person of the Holy Spirit, in the real belief of the rapture, 2nd coming, and all that, allllllllllllllllllllllllll these universal beliefs among millions of meek minded Christians, we can’t be wrong. WE CAN’T BE!

Wrong again, as usual.  Your limited and myopic reading has blinded you to facts.

First of all, the religion generally considered oldest is Hinduism…NOT Christianity.  http://ask.yahoo.com/20011106.html

Further, there are many scholarly theories that Jesus was the result of blending many other myths.

Christianity drew heavily from other religions when created, including common themes such as resurrection, a December 25th birthday, communion, etc.

Here’s a brief snippet of what I’m referring to:

Predecessors and parallels

  Further information: Comparative mythology
  Further information: Pagan influences on Christianity

[edit] Myths in the ancient Roman, Hellenistic and Semitic world

Aspects of the Gospel stories of Jesus have parallels with life-death-rebirth gods in the widespread mystery religions prevalent in the Hellenistic culture amongst which Christianity was born. Closely related to this are mythemes of sacral kingship and “theophagy”, the eating of the body of a fertility god, traced by Walter Burkert to a neolithic fertility rite surrounding a god who needs to die and rise again in order to feed the community, sublimated in the Christian eucharist.

The central figure of one of the most widespread mysteries, Osiris-Dionysus, was consistently localised and deliberately merged with local deities in each area, since it was the mysteries which were imparted that were regarded as important, not the method by which they were taught. Other prominently cited parallels are with Tammuz, Horus and Mithras. Horus was one of the life-death-rebirth deities, and was connected and involved in the resurrection of Osiris, whose Egyptian name (Asar) is very similar to the root of Lazarus. In the view of some advocates of the Jesus Myth theory, most prominently Freke and Gandy in The Jesus Mysteries, Jewish mystics adapted their form of Osiris-Dionysus to match prior Jewish heroes like Moses and Joshua, hence creating Jesus.[1]

This can be found here:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Christ_in_comparative_mythology

I read another article somewhere that did a better job of showing the parallels, but I can’t seem to remember where right now.  I’ll find the source and cite it when I’m able.

The point is, Christianity was NOT first, it is not original in it’s ideologies nor its depiction of Christ-like deities.

Why don’t you do yourself a favor and read so you can effectively argue with facts, not myopic opinion.

Remember, there was a time when the entire world population believed the earth was flat…it was just accepted as truth.

Currently only about 33% of the world’s population is Christian.

Needless to say, if the entire world population was wrong about something observable, isn’t it highly probable that only 33% of the population could be wrong about something NOT observable.  Of course.

Facts.  They do exist, whether you like it or not.

best regards.

[ Edited: 01 June 2008 08:50 PM by NoLongerDelusional]
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Posted: 02 June 2008 03:46 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]  
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TheChampion - 01 June 2008 09:34 PM

Mesomorph, why such hostility? Your posts suggest an habitually irrational emotional state. When someone has the unmitigated gall to have an opposing viewpoint, your comments have an intensity, upon which, must be derived from a deeply troubled mind.

You know, Nazi concentration camp guard. You would certainly have excelled at the job.

Nazi concentration camp guard? Oooh, that really hurt! Those Nazi concentration camp guards really did do things like threatening people with living in a cabin in Montana, didn’t they? And then they scared them to death with threats of being besieged by the FBI and setting themselves on fire.

Chump, you are living proof that to be a fundamentalist Christian you have to be a dimwit.

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Posted: 02 June 2008 04:23 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]  
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Ah ... another topic in which TC leads another game of intellectual patty cake.

Quaint.

Byron

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Posted: 02 June 2008 07:52 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]  
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mesomorph - 02 June 2008 07:46 AM

Oooh, that really hurt!

I’m quite sure it did. The truth always hurts. wink

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Posted: 02 June 2008 08:39 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]  
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I’m sorry mesomorph, I’m just feeling convicted by the Holy Spirit for exploiting your intellectual weaknesses….....ok, that wasn’t right either. I’m sorry. I did not leave you an “in” back to normalcy. So lets fix this now, lest I be wrought with conviction all day. That was not nice of me.

Mesomorph, we can see that your responses are creepy, not funny, kind of wierd, hostile, etc. But hey, we all make mistakes. We all go overboard at times. Hey, that’s ok buddy. We’ve all been there. Just belly up to the Harris Forum bar and keep at it. You’ll get better! I’ll be praying for you! All will be well my boy.

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Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light. Matt 11:28-29

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Posted: 02 June 2008 09:10 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]  
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TheChampion - 02 June 2008 12:39 PM

Mesomorph, we can see that your responses are creepy, not funny, kind of wierd, hostile, etc. But hey, we all make mistakes. We all go overboard at times. Hey, that’s ok buddy. We’ve all been there. Just belly up to the Harris Forum bar and keep at it. You’ll get better! I’ll be praying for you! All will be well my boy.

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Posted: 02 June 2008 01:51 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]  
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Speechless - with laughter.

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