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The War on Traditional Values
Posted: 03 June 2008 07:38 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]  
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mesomorph - 02 June 2008 05:51 PM

Speechless - with laughter.

Oh really now? AH HA HA Ha Ha......not.

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Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light. Matt 11:28-29

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Posted: 04 June 2008 06:54 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]  
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go figure…chump didn’t make any retort to the facts listed.

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Posted: 04 June 2008 07:45 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]  
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NoLongerDelusional - 04 June 2008 10:54 AM

go figure…chump didn’t make any retort to the facts listed.

What facts? Did anyone spout anything other than an insinuation that I was a bit obtuse for believing in those dusty old ancient scrolls pulled from caves, trenches, and holes in the ground.

(Have I spelled everything right?, can’t see without me glasses!)

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Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light. Matt 11:28-29

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Posted: 04 June 2008 07:50 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]  
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TheChampion - 04 June 2008 11:45 AM
NoLongerDelusional - 04 June 2008 10:54 AM

go figure…chump didn’t make any retort to the facts listed.

What facts? Did anyone spout anything other than an insinuation that I was a bit obtuse for believing in those dusty old ancient scrolls pulled from caves, trenches, and holes in the ground.

(Have I spelled everything right?, can’t see without me glasses!)

Here, let me repost it…

It was a retort to your following remark: 

  But wait! We were here first. We got first dibs on the truth-o-meter. SHOTGUN…..there, we got the front seat. Billions of converts tells me that we can’t be wrong! The law of averages and statisical measures tells me that our universal belief in a God, in the real person of Jesus Christ, in the real person of the Holy Spirit, in the real belief of the rapture, 2nd coming, and all that, allllllllllllllllllllllllll these universal beliefs among millions of meek minded Christians, we can’t be wrong. WE CAN’T BE!


My retort:

Wrong again, as usual.  Your limited and myopic reading has blinded you to facts.

First of all, the religion generally considered oldest is Hinduism…NOT Christianity.  http://ask.yahoo.com/20011106.html

Further, there are many scholarly theories that Jesus was the result of blending many other myths.

Christianity drew heavily from other religions when created, including common themes such as resurrection, a December 25th birthday, communion, etc.

Here’s a brief snippet of what I’m referring to:

Predecessors and parallels

Further information: Comparative mythology
Further information: Pagan influences on Christianity

[edit] Myths in the ancient Roman, Hellenistic and Semitic world

Aspects of the Gospel stories of Jesus have parallels with life-death-rebirth gods in the widespread mystery religions prevalent in the Hellenistic culture amongst which Christianity was born. Closely related to this are mythemes of sacral kingship and “theophagy”, the eating of the body of a fertility god, traced by Walter Burkert to a neolithic fertility rite surrounding a god who needs to die and rise again in order to feed the community, sublimated in the Christian eucharist.

The central figure of one of the most widespread mysteries, Osiris-Dionysus, was consistently localised and deliberately merged with local deities in each area, since it was the mysteries which were imparted that were regarded as important, not the method by which they were taught. Other prominently cited parallels are with Tammuz, Horus and Mithras. Horus was one of the life-death-rebirth deities, and was connected and involved in the resurrection of Osiris, whose Egyptian name (Asar) is very similar to the root of Lazarus. In the view of some advocates of the Jesus Myth theory, most prominently Freke and Gandy in The Jesus Mysteries, Jewish mystics adapted their form of Osiris-Dionysus to match prior Jewish heroes like Moses and Joshua, hence creating Jesus.[1]

This can be found here:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Christ_in_comparative_mythology

I read another article somewhere that did a better job of showing the parallels, but I can’t seem to remember where right now.  I’ll find the source and cite it when I’m able.

The point is, Christianity was NOT first, it is not original in it’s ideologies nor its depiction of Christ-like deities.

Why don’t you do yourself a favor and read so you can effectively argue with facts, not myopic opinion.

Remember, there was a time when the entire world population believed the earth was flat…it was just accepted as truth.

Currently only about 33% of the world’s population is Christian.

Needless to say, if the entire world population was wrong about something observable, isn’t it highly probable that only 33% of the population could be wrong about something NOT observable.  Of course.

Facts.  They do exist, whether you like it or not.

best regards.

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Posted: 09 June 2008 04:35 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]  
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NoLongerDelusional - 04 June 2008 11:50 AM

Currently only about 33% of the world’s population is Christian.

Ugh, that would wrong. For clarification purposes, what you really mean is that 60+ % of the world believe in Christianity, but 33% of those actually go to church or pray to God, etc.

Thank you for your input.

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Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light. Matt 11:28-29

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Posted: 09 June 2008 05:23 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]  
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TheChampion - 09 June 2008 08:35 AM

60+ % of the world believe in Christianity

I think you are confusing the world with the USA.

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Posted: 09 June 2008 05:35 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]  
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mesomorph - 09 June 2008 09:23 AM
TheChampion - 09 June 2008 08:35 AM

60+ % of the world believe in Christianity

I think you are confusing the world with the USA.

No, no confusion at all my dear mesomorph. Just clarity. Humph….

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Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light. Matt 11:28-29

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Posted: 09 June 2008 05:43 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]  
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TheChampion - 09 June 2008 08:35 AM

Ugh, that would wrong. For clarification purposes, what you really mean is that 60+ % of the world believe in Christianity, but 33% of those actually go to church or pray to God, etc.

Where did you get the 60 percent figure? I can think of statistical tricks to arrive at that figure, such as counting the Mormon baptisms of Holocaust victims, or assuming that all non-religious people are Christians in denial, or assuming that Muslims and Jews are Christians in denial.

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Posted: 09 June 2008 05:49 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]  
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Carstonio - 09 June 2008 09:43 AM
TheChampion - 09 June 2008 08:35 AM

Ugh, that would wrong. For clarification purposes, what you really mean is that 60+ % of the world believe in Christianity, but 33% of those actually go to church or pray to God, etc.

Where did you get the 60 percent figure? I can think of statistical tricks to arrive at that figure, such as counting the Mormon baptisms of Holocaust victims, or assuming that all non-religious people are Christians in denial, or assuming that Muslims and Jews are Christians in denial.

Just a solid unshakable belief that 60% or more belief in Christianity. It is probably more than that. But you know, for a variety of reasons, some we cannot discuss, people cannot or will not speak up or out about it.

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Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light. Matt 11:28-29

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Posted: 09 June 2008 06:19 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]  
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TheChampion - 09 June 2008 09:49 AM

Just a solid unshakable belief that 60% or more belief in Christianity.

That’s like trying to do sociological research by locking one’s self in a room with no means of communicating with the outside world. The whole concept of “solid unshakable belief” in the absence of evidence is wrong. Not just in religion, but in all human endeavor. We must always acknowledge the possibility that we may be mistaken about something.

TheChampion - 09 June 2008 09:49 AM

But you know, for a variety of reasons, some we cannot discuss, people cannot or will not speak up or out about it.

Why can’t we discuss them? Certainly in some cultures, members of minority religions have a justified fear of persecution. That may be one reason that Adherents.com lists its percentage as “approximate estimates.” Offering such caveats upfront the intellectually honest approach. Saying that your 60 percent figure is guesswork would be giving it too much credit.

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Posted: 09 June 2008 06:22 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]  
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TheChampion - 09 June 2008 09:49 AM

Just a solid unshakable belief that 60% or more belief in Christianity. It is probably more than that. But you know, for a variety of reasons, some we cannot discuss, people cannot or will not speak up or out about it.

Champ, you are doing harm to yourself. As I write this post, the population of the world is 6,817,128,000, and going up by the second. http://www.ibiblio.org/lunarbin/worldpop

60% of that is just over 4 billion. Come on man. All Christians in the world are about 2.1 billion. http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

But let’s pump it up a little and say 2.5 billion, since the population is rising so quickly. What is your source for saying it’s over 4 billion?

[ Edited: 09 June 2008 06:25 AM by Ecurb Noselrub]
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Posted: 09 June 2008 09:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 42 ]  
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Bruce Burleson - 09 June 2008 10:22 AM

But let’s pump it up a little and say 2.5 billion, since the population is rising so quickly. What is your source for saying it’s over 4 billion?

A hunch!

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Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light. Matt 11:28-29

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Posted: 10 June 2008 04:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 43 ]  
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Champ, you have a very positive view of the Christianisation of the world. Your hunch would seem to suggest that you see its final victory as more or less guaranteed. As you probably know there are Islamists in this forum who would argue that on the contrary it is Islam that is destined to take over the world; they are claiming 20,000 converts per year in the USA alone.

Just to let you know I am starting a thread entitled ‘What Will God Decide?’ in the Faith (General Issues) section. I am hoping that the Christians and Muslims here will be able to reach a cordial agreement through balanced discussion of the issue.

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Posted: 10 June 2008 04:52 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 44 ]  
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mesomorph - 10 June 2008 08:27 AM

Champ, you have a very positive view of the Christianisation of the world. Your hunch would seem to suggest that you see its final victory as more or less guaranteed. As you probably know there are Islamists in this forum who would argue that on the contrary it is Islam that is destined to take over the world; they are claiming 20,000 converts per year in the USA alone.

Just to let you know I am starting a thread entitled ‘What Will God Decide?’ in the Faith (General Issues) section. I am hoping that the Christians and Muslims here will be able to reach a cordial agreement through balanced discussion of the issue.

Wow mesomorph, that sounds great. Will be checking it out.

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Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light. Matt 11:28-29

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Posted: 10 June 2008 02:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 45 ]  
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Bruce, I have just read this thread for the first time today. You and I have generally disagreed on most things. I am genuinely impressed. I have never doubted your intelligence. I just want to say that your posts on this thread have been particularly rational. Perhaps you are converting to a non-theist philosophy.  wink

I know you are still a Christian. That is just my way of complimenting your evenhanded posts.

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Real honesty is accepting the theories that best explain the actual data even if those explanations contradict our cherished beliefs.-Scotty

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