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Dr. Seyyed Hossein Nasr on Science and Civilization in Islam
Posted: 06 June 2008 02:12 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]  
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Jack Shooter - 06 June 2008 12:40 AM

Sufficient answers are in the Qur’an.

I ain’t going to plough through the Qur’an just to find what you think are the answers to my question, Jack! If you can’t tell me what you think on your own behalf, that is a good reason to suspect you of substituting religious faith for intelligence.

And please don’t bother with any specious quotes, because they won’t make the slightest impression, except to confirm the above still further.

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Posted: 06 June 2008 04:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]  
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I’m sure you would much rather everyone just rot in ignorance and hatred rather then move forward through education.  But that’s just you.  Hopefully others may learn something.

Well, you seem not to even know the difference between education and propaganda than. Keep you apolgetic spam for you, start educating the islamic suicide bombers and genital cutters and not us.

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Posted: 06 June 2008 10:32 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]  
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Here’s another good line. I think that he’s saying that those who don’t believe Islam’s metaphysical bullshit will have to die, but her death is justifiable and not the same as when others kill for other beliefs.

the hierarchy of knowledge in Islam, as it has existed historically, has been united by a metaphysical bond much as a vertical axis unites horizontal planes of reference the integration of these diverse views “from above” has been possible. Historically, of course, there have been many conflicts, sometimes disputes leading to violence and occasionally to the death of a writer. Such conflicts are not, however, as elsewhere, between incompatible orthodoxies. They are regarded by most Islamic commentators as due to the lack of a more universal point of view on the part of those who have only embraced a less universal one.

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Posted: 06 June 2008 11:41 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]  
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mesomorph - 06 June 2008 06:12 AM
Jack Shooter - 06 June 2008 12:40 AM

Sufficient answers are in the Qur’an.

I ain’t going to plough through the Qur’an just to find what you think are the answers to my question, Jack! If you can’t tell me what you think on your own behalf, that is a good reason to suspect you of substituting religious faith for intelligence.

And please don’t bother with any specious quotes, because they won’t make the slightest impression, except to confirm the above still further.

You are asking me to explain why God does this or that.  I can tell you what I think, but what I think is naturally shaped by the Qur’anic worldview, which complements my observations of the world, and vice versa.  How else do you expect me to answer your question?  How else does one expect to come to know God without revelation?  Sure, one can come to a belief in a Higher Power without revelation, but more than that is difficult.

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Posted: 06 June 2008 12:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]  
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Jack Shooter - 06 June 2008 03:41 PM

How else does one expect to come to know God without revelation?

Revelation is just another word for a complete indoctrination.

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Posted: 06 June 2008 12:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]  
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eucaryote - 06 June 2008 04:38 PM
Jack Shooter - 06 June 2008 03:41 PM

How else does one expect to come to know God without revelation?

Revelation is just another word for a complete indoctrination.

No, if revelation conflicts with reason, then you have grounds to reject it.  However, nothing actually does conflict with reason, including the notion of angels, jinn, the day of judement, God, and other aspects of the unseen.  Although not provable by a purely rational/materialistic approach, they are not unreasonable to believe in.

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Posted: 06 June 2008 01:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]  
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Jack Shooter - 06 June 2008 04:56 PM

However, nothing actually does conflict with reason, including the notion of angels, jinn, the day of judement, God, and other aspects of the unseen.  Although not provable by a purely rational/materialistic approach, they are not unreasonable to believe in.

Yes, we know that you “think” this way. This is why we won’t let you fly the plane.

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Posted: 06 June 2008 01:37 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]  
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eucaryote - 06 June 2008 05:07 PM
Jack Shooter - 06 June 2008 04:56 PM

However, nothing actually does conflict with reason, including the notion of angels, jinn, the day of judement, God, and other aspects of the unseen.  Although not provable by a purely rational/materialistic approach, they are not unreasonable to believe in.

Yes, we know that you “think” this way. This is why we won’t let you fly the plane.

There is no plane.  You and your dogs already destroyed it.  But we’ll make a new one God willing.

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Posted: 06 June 2008 02:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]  
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Jack Shooter - 06 June 2008 03:41 PM

You are asking me to explain why God does this or that.  I can tell you what I think, but what I think is naturally shaped by the Qur’anic worldview, which complements my observations of the world, and vice versa.  How else do you expect me to answer your question?  How else does one expect to come to know God without revelation?  Sure, one can come to a belief in a Higher Power without revelation, but more than that is difficult.

Let me remind you of my question:

In reality [Nasr’s] Islamic allegiance is due to an accident of birth. Now he would of course say that was not an accident, it was all part of God’s decree.

In which case, why did God, who planned that he should be a Muslim, decree that the majority of the world’s population should a) not be Muslims b) have the financial, technical, cultural and military clout that Islam does not?

You said that there are sufficient answers in the Qur’an. I said don’t ask me to plough through the Qur’an, tell me in your own words. As you have not been able to do that, I will continue to be justified in saying that no Muslim I have ever met has been able to answer the conundrum.

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Posted: 06 June 2008 02:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]  
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Mel Olontha - 06 June 2008 08:48 AM

I’m sure you would much rather everyone just rot in ignorance and hatred rather then move forward through education.  But that’s just you.  Hopefully others may learn something.

Well, you seem not to even know the difference between education and propaganda than. Keep you apolgetic spam for you, start educating the islamic suicide bombers and genital cutters and not us.

Start educating people about oppression, facilitate the conditions for change, and you will see a decline in suicide bombing, whether in Palestine or Sri Lanka.  This forum is largely anti-religion propoganda.  I’m just pointing that out.

[ Edited: 08 June 2008 11:38 AM by Jack Shooter]
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Posted: 06 June 2008 04:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]  
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mesomorph - 06 June 2008 06:13 PM
Jack Shooter - 06 June 2008 03:41 PM

You are asking me to explain why God does this or that.  I can tell you what I think, but what I think is naturally shaped by the Qur’anic worldview, which complements my observations of the world, and vice versa.  How else do you expect me to answer your question?  How else does one expect to come to know God without revelation?  Sure, one can come to a belief in a Higher Power without revelation, but more than that is difficult.

Let me remind you of my question:

In reality [Nasr’s] Islamic allegiance is due to an accident of birth. Now he would of course say that was not an accident, it was all part of God’s decree.

In which case, why did God, who planned that he should be a Muslim, decree that the majority of the world’s population should a) not be Muslims b) have the financial, technical, cultural and military clout that Islam does not?

You said that there are sufficient answers in the Qur’an. I said don’t ask me to plough through the Qur’an, tell me in your own words. As you have not been able to do that, I will continue to be justified in saying that no Muslim I have ever met has been able to answer the conundrum.

Why does God give to some and withold from others?  Generally speaking, some are more deserving than others, and others from among the believers in God are being tested.  But the majority of the world’s population, although not Muslim are not necessarily doomed either such that you could call this a conundrum, as God says “We do not punish until we send a messenger”, and most people have a distorted understanding of the truth that is Islam, including some so-called Muslims themselves (normally the ones born into the faith).  God did not decree for people to disbelieve, but He has given them the choice, but He already knows the outcome.  Furthermore, according to Islamic tradition, belief in God alone (i.e. without Islam) can be sufficient for someone’s salvation, although it is pointless to emphasize this given the need to implement belief, that is, to practice it.

In short, Muslims don’t have the ‘clout’ you speak of because at this point in history they don’t deserve it - that is, most Muslims do not act as Muslims ought to act according to Islamic tradition.  And while the majority of people are not Muslim, most people I would think, nonetheless believe in God, which is, a sufficient place to begin.  Why most people don’t actually become Muslim is usually their own fault.  They usually haven’t made a serious and sincere effort.  Here in the West, people are too often distracted by bread and circus games, along with a lot of anti-religion propoganda to contemplate Reality.  But those who are blessed enough, that is those who make the effort, are drawn near to their Lord.  “Seek and ye shall find.”  And God knows best.

If this answer is not sufficient, please tell me exactly what sort of reasoning you expect that would indicate ‘intelligence’ as opposed to faith.  By the way, the statement you have adopted that “faith is a substitute for intelligence” is not completely true.  Sure enough, we talk about God when there are things we cannot explain, this is the “god of the gaps” as some people call it.  But we also talk about God because of things that we can explain.  Again, the anthropic principle is a good example.

Besides, there is nothing problematic about admitting that there are some things we may never know, and upon which, we must rely upon faith.

[ Edited: 06 June 2008 04:21 PM by Jack Shooter]
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Posted: 06 June 2008 05:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]  
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Jack Shooter - 06 June 2008 08:14 PM

Besides, there is nothing problematic about admitting that there are some things we may never know, and upon which, we must rely upon faith.

No Jack, Not knowing something doesn’t give you the logical right to postulate whatever you wish and then accept it as truth based on faith. That’s perfectly insane.

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Posted: 06 June 2008 05:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]  
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eucaryote - 06 June 2008 09:19 PM
Jack Shooter - 06 June 2008 08:14 PM

Besides, there is nothing problematic about admitting that there are some things we may never know, and upon which, we must rely upon faith.

No Jack, Not knowing something doesn’t give you the logical right to postulate whatever you wish and then accept it as truth based on faith. That’s perfectly insane.

No one has ever postulated whatever they wish in serious religions, a fact many atheists don’t seem to understand, which leads them to erroneously conclude that belief in God is comparable to belief in the Flying Spaghetti Monster.  Every true religion (i.e. monothestic religion), postulates that God is One, unlike anything that the mind can conceive of (unlike the FSM, which is easily concievable).  The Abrahamic faiths suggest that God is knowable through revelation and His prophets.  The truth of God as understood by the latter faith groups, is based on various reasons.  Such belief is not unreasonable to hold.

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Posted: 06 June 2008 08:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]  
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Jack Shooter - 06 June 2008 09:59 PM

The truth of God as understood by the latter faith groups, is based on various reasons.  Such belief is not unreasonable to hold.

Belief based on “various reasons” makes it “reasonable”. All you are doing is citing your faith as evidence of your arbitrary beliefs. What you call revelation is just corollary belief that holding arbitrary beliefs in lieu of evidence is particularly noble and virtuous and evidence in and of itself of the veracity of your arbitrary beliefs.

Like I said, perfectly insane.

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Posted: 06 June 2008 09:41 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]  
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eucaryote - 07 June 2008 12:32 AM
Jack Shooter - 06 June 2008 09:59 PM

The truth of God as understood by the latter faith groups, is based on various reasons.  Such belief is not unreasonable to hold.

Belief based on “various reasons” makes it “reasonable”. All you are doing is citing your faith as evidence of your arbitrary beliefs. What you call revelation is just corollary belief that holding arbitrary beliefs in lieu of evidence is particularly noble and virtuous and evidence in and of itself of the veracity of your arbitrary beliefs.

Like I said, perfectly insane.

That is a fine piece of rhetoric.  Now, correct me if I’m wrong, but I think what you are trying to say is that I, and perhaps others who believe in God, base their faith on circular reasoning.  If this is what you are proposing, then you are wrong.  I don’t believe because God tells me to believe.  I believe because it makes sense to given the reasons I’ve outlined in earlier posts.  You’ll have to dig them up if you care to know what those are.

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