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Rules for Wife Beating
Posted: 06 June 2008 10:25 AM   [ Ignore ]  
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I guess this is better than no rules at all!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Sp9mxWjesc&NR=1

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Posted: 07 June 2008 01:26 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]  
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Rules is better than no rules.
“You can beat your wife if:
Not done in front of the children
avoid the face
no bruises
no broken bones
If you break the rules even though your wife forgive you Allah may not”

Above only refers to physical injury which Allah is only interested. How about the psycological damage of verbal abuse, or the long lasting damaging effects of “Parental alienation syndrome”. Maybe Allah is not interested in psycology.

May I add to the rules
“Beating has to be done in a loving fashion”

[ Edited: 07 June 2008 08:10 PM by mammooth]
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Love is Forgiveness
Peace is Tolerance
“In the beginning Man created God according to his own image and understanding. Over the years as Men understanding of morality, violence and tolerance evolves, so evolves our understanding of a Loving God”.

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Posted: 07 June 2008 09:05 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]  
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mammooth - 07 June 2008 05:26 AM

Rules is better than no rules.
“You can beat your wife if:
Not done in front of the children
avoid the face
no bruises
no broken bones
If you brake the rules even though your wife forgive you Allah may not”

Above only refers to physical injury which Allah is only interested. How about the psycological damage of verbal abuse, or the long lasting damaging effects of “Parental alienation syndrome”. Maybe Allah is not interested in psycology.

May I add to the rules
“Beating has to be done in a loving fashion”

Physical disciplining is different from physical abuse, anything that breaks the rules sort of speak in physical disciplining would actually be considered physical abuse and as such is considered prohibited.  Verbal abuse is never allowed.

It is possible to physically discipline someone while loving them just the same.  Mind you, although scholars interpret the verse about this issue differently, no one would argue that physical discipline is the least desirable option.

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Posted: 07 June 2008 10:00 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]  
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Jack, I agree that there is an important difference between discipline and abuse…..for children. Is there gender equality in Islam? Are the husband and wife considered equals?

If so, is the wife allowed to “discipline” the husband when HE gets out of line? No sarcasm here, these are legitimate questions, and I would like to know your answer to them.

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Posted: 07 June 2008 11:01 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]  
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Josh - 07 June 2008 02:00 PM

Jack, I agree that there is an important difference between discipline and abuse…..for children. Is there gender equality in Islam? Are the husband and wife considered equals?

If so, is the wife allowed to “discipline” the husband when HE gets out of line? No sarcasm here, these are legitimate questions, and I would like to know your answer to them.

Thank you for your question.  What immediately comes to mind when you ask this, is the general principle in Islam that God has permitted all things except that which has been prohibited, or in a sense, limited, and this principle of Islam is one of the reasons why Muslims describe God as the Most Beneficent, Most Merciful.  In a sense then, a Muslim woman could, theoretically, physically discipline her husband, although this is obviously the least desirable route just as it is the other way around.  However, the beauty of it all is that this permission does not even have to be stated in the Qur’an simply because it is the man, not the woman, who needs to have limitations imposed on him.  In other words, God is restricting the action of men, and not vice versa, for a very good reason.  Think about it, a woman, even if she were to use physical force against her husband, which unfortunately does happen, is not as common, nor comparable in terms of its severity and consequences, as to the phenomenon of domestic violence pepetrated by males.  By their very nature, women are less inclined towards violence then men.

To draw a parallel example, the permissability in the Qur’an of men physically disciplining their spouses is akin to the injunction for children to never disrespect their parents - a major sin in Islam.  One might ask, are parents allowed to disrespect their children?  The answer is of course not.  However, the reality is that most parents ardently love and seek to care for their children, no matter what, no matter how bad a human being.  Even the worst criminals love their children.  And there are few exceptions to this.  On the other hand, it is not always easy for children to respect their parents.  I don’t think I need to provide evidence of this here, as I am sure one does not need to look very far to see the truth of this.

I also recall the very famous story among Muslims, of a man who was on his way to complain to the second Chaliph Umar ibn al-Khattab (may God be pleased with him) about his wife’s mistreatment towards him, and upon approaching Umar’s residence the man heard a woman yelling and screaming at Umar.  He figured that Umar could not help him since Umar himself had the same problem, and thus decided to walk away.  Umar noticed the man and asked him what he wanted, and so the man explained that he had come to get counsel about the situation with his wife but found Umar’s situation no better, to which Umar replied “she makes me food, washes my clothes, and takes care of my children, whereas she does not need to do any of this (i.e. according to Islamic law), thus preventing me from spending money to have these things done…” and the narration continues on.

Having said all that, when you ask about equality between the sexes, it is important to qualify what equality means.  Here is an conscise quote summarizing the problem, which I took from Wikepedia, by Friedrich Hayek: “From the fact that people are very different it follows that, if we treat them equally, the result must be inequality in their actual position, and that the only way to place them in an equal position would be to treat them differently. Equality before the law and material equality are therefore not only different but are in conflict with each other; and we can achieve either one or the other, but not both at the same time”.

God understand’s the nature of His creation and has placed rights and responsibilities on people accordingly, and has made everyone equal in His eyes except in terms of righteousness (i.e. the extent to which they fulfil their responsibilities towards Him and His creation).  According to Islam, a man is defined by his responsibilities, such as ensuring the well being of his family when he becomes a husband for example, and if he does not own up to such responsibilities, he is not really considered a man in the sense that God defines men, and the same is true for a woman.  Now, certainly there is no single injunction within Islam limiting the potential of either man or woman.  I am reminded of a prophetic command which states “seeking knowledge is an obligation on every Muslim man and woman”.  This would explain why Islam has produced hundreds of women scholars throughout history up until today.

Feel free to read this article regarding the social involvement of women in Islam by Imam Zaid Shakir:

http://www.zaytuna.org/articleDetails.asp?articleID=50

I hope this answer is sufficient.  And God knows best.

[ Edited: 07 June 2008 11:28 AM by Jack Shooter]
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Posted: 07 June 2008 11:34 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]  
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A Message to the Sisters, taken from a lecture given by Shaikh Habib Ali Jifri

We need the Muslim woman to fulfil her role in her society. The society which does not allot the opportunity for the woman to do her part does not produce a stable environment for living. Muslim women, regardless of your circumstance, you have a mission.

If you are young, you inherit the position of A’isha, for she was quite young when she married the Messenger of Allah peace be upon him. If you are widow, you are our mother, as was Sawda who was a widow when she married the Prophet peace be upon him. If you are very old, so you are our mother, as Umm Salama was. If you are divorced, you are our mother: Hafsa. And if you were not a Muslim before and were Christian, you too are our mother: M?riyya. If you were Jewish and became Muslim, you are our mother: Safiyya. If you are a rich business woman, then you are our mother: Khad?ja. If you are a generous woman, you are or mother Zaynab.

In any circumstance you are in, the Prophet of Allah peace be upon him taught us to respect you because he took on wives of a great variety of difference, not for pleasure, or else he would have taken the most beautiful ones, but he was permitted to take this large number so that we can be taught that regardless of a woman’s circumstance, it is not permitted for her to be looked down upon, nor deprived of her rights, and that any degrading look towards a woman for any circumstance she is in childhood, old age, divorce is a degrading look to a wife of the Prophet peace and blessings be upon him.

When we discuss your role, we need it to be in accordance to this sublime middle way. Do not surrender yourselves to injustice. As men, we must acknowledge injustices in our homes done in the name of Islam, and Islam is innocent of them. But neither should we push them to what is termed ‘liberation,’ but is in reality depriving them of every sublime quality they could possess. It makes them a piece of merchandise that is marketed to sell a car or otherwise.

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Posted: 07 June 2008 08:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]  
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Jack Shooter - 07 June 2008 01:05 PM

It is possible to physically discipline someone while loving them just the same.

There it goes with the rule of wife beating in a loving fashion. No different from any other wife abuser I beat her up because I love her.

Jack off Shooter, they have a brain and understanding which you don’t have to be affraid, they may think differently than you do and it is not wrong, it is just different. Can you conceptualized that statement? Even worst they may be right. Or you have to resource to training skills to re-educate their behavioral thinking?

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Posted: 07 June 2008 08:45 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]  
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Jack Shooter - 07 June 2008 03:01 PM

Having said all that, when you ask about equality between the sexes, it is important to qualify what equality means.  Here is an conscise quote summarizing the problem, which I took from Wikepedia, by Friedrich Hayek: “From the fact that people are very different it follows that, if we treat them equally, the result must be inequality in their actual position, and that the only way to place them in an equal position would be to treat them differently. Equality before the law and material equality are therefore not only different but are in conflict with each other; and we can achieve either one or the other, but not both at the same time”.

Former Novel prize in Economics, I don’t think he is talking about sexes.

Jack Shooter - 07 June 2008 03:01 PM

God understand’s the nature of His creation and has placed rights and responsibilities on people accordingly, and has made everyone equal in His eyes except in terms of righteousness (i.e. the extent to which they fulfil their responsibilities towards Him and His creation).  According to Islam, a man is defined by his responsibilities, such as ensuring the well being of his family when he becomes a husband for example, and if he does not own up to such responsibilities, he is not really considered a man in the sense that God defines men, and the same is true for a woman.  Now, certainly there is no single injunction within Islam limiting the potential of either man or woman.  I am reminded of a prophetic command which states “seeking knowledge is an obligation on every Muslim man and woman”.  This would explain why Islam has produced hundreds of women scholars throughout history up until today.

Feel free to read this article regarding the social involvement of women in Islam by Imam Zaid Shakir:

http://www.zaytuna.org/articleDetails.asp?articleID=50

I hope this answer is sufficient.  And God knows best.

You seem to know better God in and out than anybody else, what if He is not the real McCoy.

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“Life is the COEXISTENCE of opposites values”
Love is Forgiveness
Peace is Tolerance
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Posted: 08 June 2008 04:56 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]  
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Jack Shooter - 07 June 2008 03:01 PM
Josh - 07 June 2008 02:00 PM

Jack, I agree that there is an important difference between discipline and abuse…..for children. Is there gender equality in Islam? Are the husband and wife considered equals?

If so, is the wife allowed to “discipline” the husband when HE gets out of line? No sarcasm here, these are legitimate questions, and I would like to know your answer to them.

Thank you for your question.  What immediately comes to mind when you ask this, is the general principle in Islam that God has permitted all things except that which has been prohibited, or in a sense, limited, and this principle of Islam is one of the reasons why Muslims describe God as the Most Beneficent, Most Merciful.  In a sense then, a Muslim woman could, theoretically, physically discipline her husband, although this is obviously the least desirable route just as it is the other way around.  However, the beauty of it all is that this permission does not even have to be stated in the Qur’an simply because it is the man, not the woman, who needs to have limitations imposed on him.  In other words, God is restricting the action of men, and not vice versa, for a very good reason.  Think about it, a woman, even if she were to use physical force against her husband, which unfortunately does happen, is not as common, nor comparable in terms of its severity and consequences, as to the phenomenon of domestic violence pepetrated by males.  By their very nature, women are less inclined towards violence then men.

To draw a parallel example, the permissability in the Qur’an of men physically disciplining their spouses is akin to the injunction for children to never disrespect their parents - a major sin in Islam.  One might ask, are parents allowed to disrespect their children?  The answer is of course not.  However, the reality is that most parents ardently love and seek to care for their children, no matter what, no matter how bad a human being.  Even the worst criminals love their children.  And there are few exceptions to this.  On the other hand, it is not always easy for children to respect their parents.  I don’t think I need to provide evidence of this here, as I am sure one does not need to look very far to see the truth of this.

I also recall the very famous story among Muslims, of a man who was on his way to complain to the second Chaliph Umar ibn al-Khattab (may God be pleased with him) about his wife’s mistreatment towards him, and upon approaching Umar’s residence the man heard a woman yelling and screaming at Umar.  He figured that Umar could not help him since Umar himself had the same problem, and thus decided to walk away.  Umar noticed the man and asked him what he wanted, and so the man explained that he had come to get counsel about the situation with his wife but found Umar’s situation no better, to which Umar replied “she makes me food, washes my clothes, and takes care of my children, whereas she does not need to do any of this (i.e. according to Islamic law), thus preventing me from spending money to have these things done…” and the narration continues on.

Having said all that, when you ask about equality between the sexes, it is important to qualify what equality means.  Here is an conscise quote summarizing the problem, which I took from Wikepedia, by Friedrich Hayek: “From the fact that people are very different it follows that, if we treat them equally, the result must be inequality in their actual position, and that the only way to place them in an equal position would be to treat them differently. Equality before the law and material equality are therefore not only different but are in conflict with each other; and we can achieve either one or the other, but not both at the same time”.

God understand’s the nature of His creation and has placed rights and responsibilities on people accordingly, and has made everyone equal in His eyes except in terms of righteousness (i.e. the extent to which they fulfil their responsibilities towards Him and His creation).  According to Islam, a man is defined by his responsibilities, such as ensuring the well being of his family when he becomes a husband for example, and if he does not own up to such responsibilities, he is not really considered a man in the sense that God defines men, and the same is true for a woman.  Now, certainly there is no single injunction within Islam limiting the potential of either man or woman.  I am reminded of a prophetic command which states “seeking knowledge is an obligation on every Muslim man and woman”.  This would explain why Islam has produced hundreds of women scholars throughout history up until today.

Feel free to read this article regarding the social involvement of women in Islam by Imam Zaid Shakir:

http://www.zaytuna.org/articleDetails.asp?articleID=50

I hope this answer is sufficient.  And God knows best.


Jack

Thanks for this great explanation. I now understand that Allah is the,“Most Beneficent, Most Merciful” and that Allah knows best. Certainly no reasonable person could disagree. So all that is required is for one to follow the Qur’an for guidance in these matters. However, I am still a little uncertain concerning this business about honor killings.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVIopgK0XGE

Would you please post some of your insightful comments on this. Praise be to Allah!

Stay Well
Wot

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Posted: 08 June 2008 07:59 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]  
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Wotansson - 08 June 2008 08:56 AM
Jack Shooter - 07 June 2008 03:01 PM
Josh - 07 June 2008 02:00 PM

Jack, I agree that there is an important difference between discipline and abuse…..for children. Is there gender equality in Islam? Are the husband and wife considered equals?

If so, is the wife allowed to “discipline” the husband when HE gets out of line? No sarcasm here, these are legitimate questions, and I would like to know your answer to them.

Thank you for your question.  What immediately comes to mind when you ask this, is the general principle in Islam that God has permitted all things except that which has been prohibited, or in a sense, limited, and this principle of Islam is one of the reasons why Muslims describe God as the Most Beneficent, Most Merciful.  In a sense then, a Muslim woman could, theoretically, physically discipline her husband, although this is obviously the least desirable route just as it is the other way around.  However, the beauty of it all is that this permission does not even have to be stated in the Qur’an simply because it is the man, not the woman, who needs to have limitations imposed on him.  In other words, God is restricting the action of men, and not vice versa, for a very good reason.  Think about it, a woman, even if she were to use physical force against her husband, which unfortunately does happen, is not as common, nor comparable in terms of its severity and consequences, as to the phenomenon of domestic violence pepetrated by males.  By their very nature, women are less inclined towards violence then men.

To draw a parallel example, the permissability in the Qur’an of men physically disciplining their spouses is akin to the injunction for children to never disrespect their parents - a major sin in Islam.  One might ask, are parents allowed to disrespect their children?  The answer is of course not.  However, the reality is that most parents ardently love and seek to care for their children, no matter what, no matter how bad a human being.  Even the worst criminals love their children.  And there are few exceptions to this.  On the other hand, it is not always easy for children to respect their parents.  I don’t think I need to provide evidence of this here, as I am sure one does not need to look very far to see the truth of this.

I also recall the very famous story among Muslims, of a man who was on his way to complain to the second Chaliph Umar ibn al-Khattab (may God be pleased with him) about his wife’s mistreatment towards him, and upon approaching Umar’s residence the man heard a woman yelling and screaming at Umar.  He figured that Umar could not help him since Umar himself had the same problem, and thus decided to walk away.  Umar noticed the man and asked him what he wanted, and so the man explained that he had come to get counsel about the situation with his wife but found Umar’s situation no better, to which Umar replied “she makes me food, washes my clothes, and takes care of my children, whereas she does not need to do any of this (i.e. according to Islamic law), thus preventing me from spending money to have these things done…” and the narration continues on.

Having said all that, when you ask about equality between the sexes, it is important to qualify what equality means.  Here is an conscise quote summarizing the problem, which I took from Wikepedia, by Friedrich Hayek: “From the fact that people are very different it follows that, if we treat them equally, the result must be inequality in their actual position, and that the only way to place them in an equal position would be to treat them differently. Equality before the law and material equality are therefore not only different but are in conflict with each other; and we can achieve either one or the other, but not both at the same time”.

God understand’s the nature of His creation and has placed rights and responsibilities on people accordingly, and has made everyone equal in His eyes except in terms of righteousness (i.e. the extent to which they fulfil their responsibilities towards Him and His creation).  According to Islam, a man is defined by his responsibilities, such as ensuring the well being of his family when he becomes a husband for example, and if he does not own up to such responsibilities, he is not really considered a man in the sense that God defines men, and the same is true for a woman.  Now, certainly there is no single injunction within Islam limiting the potential of either man or woman.  I am reminded of a prophetic command which states “seeking knowledge is an obligation on every Muslim man and woman”.  This would explain why Islam has produced hundreds of women scholars throughout history up until today.

Feel free to read this article regarding the social involvement of women in Islam by Imam Zaid Shakir:

http://www.zaytuna.org/articleDetails.asp?articleID=50

I hope this answer is sufficient.  And God knows best.


Jack

Thanks for this great explanation. I now understand that Allah is the,“Most Beneficent, Most Merciful” and that Allah knows best. Certainly no reasonable person could disagree. So all that is required is for one to follow the Qur’an for guidance in these matters. However, I am still a little uncertain concerning this business about honor killings.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVIopgK0XGE

Would you please post some of your insightful comments on this. Praise be to Allah!

Stay Well
Wot

Your right, no reasonable person could disagree.  You want to know about honor killings?  Sure no problem.  Read on below.  Take care.


Islam and Honor Killings (Revised)

By Imam Zaid on 13 December 2007

For that reason, we ordained for the Children of Israel that whoever kills a soul for other than murder or spreading corruption in the land, it is as if he has killed the whole of humanity… Qur’an 5:35

One of the gravest charges levied against Islam, in terms of its alleged antipathy towards women, is the claim that it encourages a phenomenon known as honor killings. This un-Islamic practice consists of the murder of female family members who are seen as dishonoring their families through real or perceived acts of indiscretion, such as premarital sexual relations or unapproved dating. This charge has been intensified recently due to the tragic murder of a Pakistani Canadian teenage girl, Aqsa Parvez.

The practice of honor killings has absolutely no sanction in the Qur’an, the Prophetic practice, or in the evolved systems of Islamic law. In the case of fornication or adultery, the only way a charge can be levied against an individual, male or female, is through confession, which is discouraged, or by four people actually witnessing the male organ penetrating the female. Even if four people witnessed a naked man engaged with a naked woman, but could not actually testify that they witnessed penetration, their testimony would be rejected.

In a somewhat related issue, it should be noted that in three of the four Sunni schools of law, as is the case with all of the major Shiite schools, pregnancy is not a proof of fornication, as the possibility of rape exists in such a case. Therefore, if a single woman were to become pregnant, according to the overwhelming majority of Islamic jurists, there is no basis for punishing her. In the few well-publicized instances where a pregnant woman has been threatened with death, the minority opinion of the Maliki School of law was unjustly evoked, as occurred in Nigeria, or criminal malfeasance occurred as is the case in Pakistan.

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Posted: 08 June 2008 07:59 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]  
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In the case of dating, there is no Islamically-mandated punishment for a male or a female seeing a member of the opposite sex against the wishes of their families. Such situations should be handled with counseling, compassion and a healthy dose of common sense. Muslim immigrants who have migrated to the West should realize that they have placed their children in an environment where there is a tremendous amount of anti-Islamic peer pressure. This is especially true if they have placed their children, as was the case of the young lady who was recently murdered in Canada, in public schools. Children who succumb to that pressure should not be seen as “bad” kids, for by the standards of the society that has shaped them, no matter how strong their home environment is, they are normal.  To kill a female guilty of an offense such as dating or dressing like her peers under such circumstances is nothing short of cold-blooded murder, and no Islamic authority can argue otherwise.

The overwhelming majority of Muslim societies are free from the practice of honor killing, although it does endure in some parts of the Middle East and South Asia. According to statistics released by the United Nations in 2000 there are approximately 5,000 deaths annually from “honor” killings. Even if one killing occurred due to such barbarity, it would be one too many, as the Qur’an emphasizes.

However, to use the existence of such killings to smear Islam shows the desperation and misplaced priorities of many of those levying such attacks. Most of those deaths are the pathetic acts of sick individuals, who are far removed from the letter, as we have shown above, and the spirit of Islam. An example of such an individual is Muhammad Riaz, a British Muslim of South Asian descent who died as a result of a fire he set to burn to death his wife and four daughters, allegedly because his wife resisted his attempt to arrange marriages for his daughters. His wife and daughters did perish in that fire. To present Riaz, whose daughters had neither fornicated nor dated, as anything other than a sick individual is a sad attempt to defame Islam.

To attack Islam from this angle is a case of misplaced priorities because it can distract attention from far graver abuses of women that demand immediate redress. For example, the State Department estimates that approximately 800,000 women and girls are trafficked as sexual slaves annually. The overwhelming majority of these females are taken from and sent to nominally Christian countries.

Over the last five years well over one thousand women have been kidnapped and then gruesomely murdered in Guatemala. Their bodies usually turn up after a few days, mutilated and in some instances with messages such as “death to bitches” written on them. To date only three men have been incarcerated in connection with those attacks. Would it be proper to thereby conclude that the “Christians” of Guatemala, an overwhelmingly Christian nation, have no regard for the suffering of their women? Of course it would not.

At the end of the day, attacks such as the one that resulted in the death of Aqsa Parvez are acts of domestic violence resulting from rage that emanates from a total neglect of Islamic teachings. Ms. Parvez lost her life due to such violence and perhaps there are a few other instances where Muslims women in Canada or here in the United States, have been similarly victimized. However, these instances should be kept in perspective. In the United States there are approximately 1,200 women killed every year by their husbands or intimate partners. There are other “Christian” nations where murders of this type are even higher.

The United States, Guatemala, and other countries we could mention where similar abuses occur are Christian nations. However, it would be disingenuous to use such statistics as an indictment against Christianity. These issues are an affront to humanity and require our collective attention. Until we all view the problem this way, we are in jeopardizing the health and integrity of our society.

Saying this is not to minimize the gravity of so-called honor killings to the extent that they do occur in Muslim societies. As Muslims, we are commanded to be committed to justice. That commitment entails that as a community we oppose in the strongest terms “honor” killings and take immediate action to end such a practice in our communities.

Practical steps include the following:

1. Emphasize that such killings have no sanction in the Qur’an, the Prophetic practice, or in Islamic law.
2. Declare anyone guilty of involvement in honor killings to be a cold-blooded murderer.
3. Encourage judicial authorities to enact the harshest penalties possible for anyone accused of involvement in such killings.
4. Educate our Muslim communities, especially in the West, about the un-Islamic nature of honor killings, and the pressures, nuances, challenges and complications facing young Muslims, male and female in the West.
5. Work to eliminate the double standards, and to expose the hypocrisy that exist in our communities, generally, concerning attitudes and standards relating to the indiscretions of males as opposed to females.

In conclusion, Islam honors the female, and values femininity. It is up to every Muslim to translate teachings in that regard into a beautiful reality that helps to elevate the status of women in all societies. Honor killings, domestic violence in general, murders of the type terrorizing women in Guatemala, female sexual slavery and trafficking, pornography, especially its more violent manifestations, are all crimes against humanity that we should oppose in the strongest terms and work strenuously to eliminate. If our women are not safe, physically, emotionally, spiritually, or psychologically we are all at risk, for without women men are incomplete, and without men women are incomplete. Our Prophet, peace and blessings of God upon him alluded to this complementariness when he said, peace upon him, “Women are the complimenting halves of men.” Let us all work harder to make our societies whole.

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Posted: 08 June 2008 03:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]  
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Jack

I am still confused so perhaps I can solve this by asking some yes/no questions.

Do you condemn those Muslims who do honor killings? Yes or No.

If a Muslim man commits fornication, should he be punished, even unto death, as the Muslim women are? Yes or no.

If a person’s religious belief, Muslim or otherwise, leads them to commit murder for any reason, should they be prosecuted for the crime even unto death? Yes or no.

Are those Muslims who conspired to fly airplanes into American buildings on 9/11 guilty of murder and do you condemn them as such? Yes or no.

If anything you say is contradicted by an Islamic Mullah (which I assume you are not), shall I believe you as opposed to the Mullah. Yes or no.

Wot

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Posted: 08 June 2008 04:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]  
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Wotansson - 08 June 2008 07:12 PM

Jack

I am still confused so perhaps I can solve this by asking some yes/no questions.

Do you condemn those Muslims who do honor killings? Yes or No.

Emphatically yes.

If a Muslim man commits fornication, should he be punished, even unto death, as the Muslim women are? Yes or no.

The punishment for fornication is lashes in the shariah, the punishment for adultrey is death.  It is applied to men and women, although the details of the punishment would depend on the situation and would be meted out by an Islamic judge.  Importantly, such punishments would not be implemented unless all the requisite social conditions exist.  For example, during the time of the second Chalih Umar ibn al-Khattab, there was famine, so he suspended the punishment of cutting off the hands of one who steals.  The harshness of the legal penalties have many reasons, among which include acting as a deterrent.

If a person’s religious belief, Muslim or otherwise, leads them to commit murder for any reason, should they be prosecuted for the crime even unto death? Yes or no.

Yes, they should be prosecuted by the proper legal authorities.  Whether they are found guilty or not depends on the circumstances.  Vigilantism and anarchy is prohibited in Islam because of the harms that ensue from these.

Are those Muslims who conspired to fly airplanes into American buildings on 9/11 guilty of murder and do you condemn them as such? Yes or no.

Yes, if it is true that the accused actually did it.  I don’t tend to believe in conspiracy theories, but there is still considerable controversy as to whether or not the said folks were the culprits.  See the documentary “Loose Change”.

If anything you say is contradicted by an Islamic Mullah (which I assume you are not), shall I believe you as opposed to the Mullah. Yes or no.

Depends which “mullah”.  I advise you as the prophet (peace be upon him) did, “Be careful where you take your religion.” (i.e. make sure it is from the proper authority).  You are right, I am not by any means a scholar, but I can point you to those who are, those who share our Western background, and can speak intelligently about Islam in a way that would make sense to you given your background.

Wot

Thanks.

[ Edited: 08 June 2008 04:25 PM by Jack Shooter]
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Posted: 09 June 2008 04:32 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]  
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Jack

You have only provided the correct unequivocal answer to one of the five questions which gives you the failing grade of 20% - not good at all. After reading all your posts in this thread plus some others, I can’t see that you speak for the thinking, practices and customs in the Muslim community. Perhaps you are a reformer but your vision is of what Islam should be and not what the reality is.

But don’t despair. I do have some constructive suggestions for you. First grow up and become a thinking adult. Consider the distinct possibility that Allah does not exist and never has and is only the construct of the minds of men. Then consider that Mohammed was only a man and like Jesus, had some good things to say. The mature man must separate the good and useful from the destructive nonsense. Religions should be judged by what they contribute to humanity rather than by blind obedience to a hypothetical Allah or any text book. By this measure, nearly all religions are found wanting, and Islam is in there with the worst. If the practice of any religion leads to killing or violence, then that is a bad religion by definition. The practice of the religion, meaning what it leads people to do, is what is important, not the theoretical text book.

Religion is the science of the child. Science is the religion of the mature man.

- Mangasarian


Stay Well
Wot

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Posted: 09 June 2008 07:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]  
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Wotansson - 09 June 2008 08:32 AM

Jack

You have only provided the correct unequivocal answer to one of the five questions which gives you the failing grade of 20% - not good at all. After reading all your posts in this thread plus some others, I can’t see that you speak for the thinking, practices and customs in the Muslim community. Perhaps you are a reformer but your vision is of what Islam should be and not what the reality is.

But don’t despair. I do have some constructive suggestions for you. First grow up and become a thinking adult. Consider the distinct possibility that Allah does not exist and never has and is only the construct of the minds of men. Then consider that Mohammed was only a man and like Jesus, had some good things to say. The mature man must separate the good and useful from the destructive nonsense. Religions should be judged by what they contribute to humanity rather than by blind obedience to a hypothetical Allah or any text book. By this measure, nearly all religions are found wanting, and Islam is in there with the worst. If the practice of any religion leads to killing or violence, then that is a bad religion by definition. The practice of the religion, meaning what it leads people to do, is what is important, not the theoretical text book.

Religion is the science of the child. Science is the religion of the mature man.

- Mangasarian


Stay Well
Wot

Evidently, you don’t know the “thinking, practices, and customs” in the Muslim community, at least not better than I.  You focus on the negative aspects and charactize all Muslims and the religion itself accordingly, but that is short sightedness on your part.  Anyway, after studying Islam at a basic level, which I am sure is more than what you have studied, I can strongly say that Islam is not lacking in any respect, and certainly does not lead to killing, anymore than, say, belief in democracy.  Anyway, for someone who has no basic knowledge, nor genuine interest in learning, about the things which he speaks of, I find it curious that you are advising me to grow up.

All the best.

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Posted: 10 June 2008 04:53 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]  
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Jack Shooter - 09 June 2008 11:52 PM
Wotansson - 09 June 2008 08:32 AM

Jack

You have only provided the correct unequivocal answer to one of the five questions which gives you the failing grade of 20% - not good at all. After reading all your posts in this thread plus some others, I can’t see that you speak for the thinking, practices and customs in the Muslim community. Perhaps you are a reformer but your vision is of what Islam should be and not what the reality is.

But don’t despair. I do have some constructive suggestions for you. First grow up and become a thinking adult. Consider the distinct possibility that Allah does not exist and never has and is only the construct of the minds of men. Then consider that Mohammed was only a man and like Jesus, had some good things to say. The mature man must separate the good and useful from the destructive nonsense. Religions should be judged by what they contribute to humanity rather than by blind obedience to a hypothetical Allah or any text book. By this measure, nearly all religions are found wanting, and Islam is in there with the worst. If the practice of any religion leads to killing or violence, then that is a bad religion by definition. The practice of the religion, meaning what it leads people to do, is what is important, not the theoretical text book.

Religion is the science of the child. Science is the religion of the mature man.

- Mangasarian


Stay Well
Wot

Evidently, you don’t know the “thinking, practices, and customs” in the Muslim community, at least not better than I.  You focus on the negative aspects and charactize all Muslims and the religion itself accordingly, but that is short sightedness on your part.  Anyway, after studying Islam at a basic level, which I am sure is more than what you have studied, I can strongly say that Islam is not lacking in any respect, and certainly does not lead to killing, anymore than, say, belief in democracy.  Anyway, for someone who has no basic knowledge, nor genuine interest in learning, about the things which he speaks of, I find it curious that you are advising me to grow up.

All the best.


You say that “Islam is not lacking in any respect and does not lead to killing” yet above you propose reforms to correct the deficiencies in Islamic practice. You say:

As Muslims, we are commanded to be committed to justice. That commitment entails that as a community we oppose in the strongest terms “honor” killings and take immediate action to end such a practice in our communities.

Practical steps include the following:

1. Emphasize that such killings have no sanction in the Qur’an, the Prophetic practice, or in Islamic law.
2. Declare anyone guilty of involvement in honor killings to be a cold-blooded murderer.
3. Encourage judicial authorities to enact the harshest penalties possible for anyone accused of involvement in such killings.
4. Educate our Muslim communities, especially in the West, about the un-Islamic nature of honor killings, and the pressures, nuances, challenges and complications facing young Muslims, male and female in the West.
5. Work to eliminate the double standards, and to expose the hypocrisy that exist in our communities, generally, concerning attitudes and standards relating to the indiscretions of males as opposed to females.


How can Islam be “not lacking in any respect” while still needing reform by immediate action, condemnation of murder, opposition to honor killings, judicial encouragement, education, elimination of double standards and elimination of hypocrisy? This is double-speak and hypocrisy in itself

Some honesty here, to yourself, if not to others will facilitate your maturation.

 

Stay Well

Wot

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