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Rules for Wife Beating
Posted: 10 June 2008 02:27 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]  
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Jack Shooter, someone on another thread says “Through the Jews, God brought his Son into the world, thus giving us his final revelation. So, any claimed revelation that comes after that cannot be true, from our perspective. Muhammad, Joseph Smith or anyone else cannot hold the “final” revelation, because Jesus held it. So, that eliminates Islam, Mormonism and all modern cults from consideration. An alleged “prophet” cannot nullify or contradict the revelation than comes from the Son of God.”

big surprise

The quote is from the following thread:

http://www.samharris.org/forum/viewthread/10117/P0/

Do you feel that you should go to that thread and respond to that?

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Real honesty is accepting the theories that best explain the actual data even if those explanations contradict our cherished beliefs.-Scotty

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Posted: 11 June 2008 04:44 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]  
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Wotansson - 10 June 2008 08:53 AM
Jack Shooter - 09 June 2008 11:52 PM
Wotansson - 09 June 2008 08:32 AM

Jack

You have only provided the correct unequivocal answer to one of the five questions which gives you the failing grade of 20% - not good at all. After reading all your posts in this thread plus some others, I can’t see that you speak for the thinking, practices and customs in the Muslim community. Perhaps you are a reformer but your vision is of what Islam should be and not what the reality is.

But don’t despair. I do have some constructive suggestions for you. First grow up and become a thinking adult. Consider the distinct possibility that Allah does not exist and never has and is only the construct of the minds of men. Then consider that Mohammed was only a man and like Jesus, had some good things to say. The mature man must separate the good and useful from the destructive nonsense. Religions should be judged by what they contribute to humanity rather than by blind obedience to a hypothetical Allah or any text book. By this measure, nearly all religions are found wanting, and Islam is in there with the worst. If the practice of any religion leads to killing or violence, then that is a bad religion by definition. The practice of the religion, meaning what it leads people to do, is what is important, not the theoretical text book.

Religion is the science of the child. Science is the religion of the mature man.

- Mangasarian


Stay Well
Wot

Evidently, you don’t know the “thinking, practices, and customs” in the Muslim community, at least not better than I.  You focus on the negative aspects and charactize all Muslims and the religion itself accordingly, but that is short sightedness on your part.  Anyway, after studying Islam at a basic level, which I am sure is more than what you have studied, I can strongly say that Islam is not lacking in any respect, and certainly does not lead to killing, anymore than, say, belief in democracy.  Anyway, for someone who has no basic knowledge, nor genuine interest in learning, about the things which he speaks of, I find it curious that you are advising me to grow up.

All the best.


You say that “Islam is not lacking in any respect and does not lead to killing” yet above you propose reforms to correct the deficiencies in Islamic practice. You say:

As Muslims, we are commanded to be committed to justice. That commitment entails that as a community we oppose in the strongest terms “honor” killings and take immediate action to end such a practice in our communities.

Practical steps include the following:

1. Emphasize that such killings have no sanction in the Qur’an, the Prophetic practice, or in Islamic law.
2. Declare anyone guilty of involvement in honor killings to be a cold-blooded murderer.
3. Encourage judicial authorities to enact the harshest penalties possible for anyone accused of involvement in such killings.
4. Educate our Muslim communities, especially in the West, about the un-Islamic nature of honor killings, and the pressures, nuances, challenges and complications facing young Muslims, male and female in the West.
5. Work to eliminate the double standards, and to expose the hypocrisy that exist in our communities, generally, concerning attitudes and standards relating to the indiscretions of males as opposed to females.


How can Islam be “not lacking in any respect” while still needing reform by immediate action, condemnation of murder, opposition to honor killings, judicial encouragement, education, elimination of double standards and elimination of hypocrisy? This is double-speak and hypocrisy in itself

Some honesty here, to yourself, if not to others will facilitate your maturation.

 

Stay Well

Wot

Islam is not lacking, Muslims are.  Islam does not need reform, Muslims do.  If Muslims were to become more “Islamic”, this would be a good thing, this is the type of reform needed.  There is no double speak and hypocrisy here, only a clear lack of understanding on your part.

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Posted: 11 June 2008 01:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]  
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Jack Shooter - 11 June 2008 08:44 AM
Wotansson - 10 June 2008 08:53 AM
Jack Shooter - 09 June 2008 11:52 PM
Wotansson - 09 June 2008 08:32 AM

Jack

You have only provided the correct unequivocal answer to one of the five questions which gives you the failing grade of 20% - not good at all. After reading all your posts in this thread plus some others, I can’t see that you speak for the thinking, practices and customs in the Muslim community. Perhaps you are a reformer but your vision is of what Islam should be and not what the reality is.

But don’t despair. I do have some constructive suggestions for you. First grow up and become a thinking adult. Consider the distinct possibility that Allah does not exist and never has and is only the construct of the minds of men. Then consider that Mohammed was only a man and like Jesus, had some good things to say. The mature man must separate the good and useful from the destructive nonsense. Religions should be judged by what they contribute to humanity rather than by blind obedience to a hypothetical Allah or any text book. By this measure, nearly all religions are found wanting, and Islam is in there with the worst. If the practice of any religion leads to killing or violence, then that is a bad religion by definition. The practice of the religion, meaning what it leads people to do, is what is important, not the theoretical text book.

Religion is the science of the child. Science is the religion of the mature man.

- Mangasarian


Stay Well
Wot

Evidently, you don’t know the “thinking, practices, and customs” in the Muslim community, at least not better than I.  You focus on the negative aspects and charactize all Muslims and the religion itself accordingly, but that is short sightedness on your part.  Anyway, after studying Islam at a basic level, which I am sure is more than what you have studied, I can strongly say that Islam is not lacking in any respect, and certainly does not lead to killing, anymore than, say, belief in democracy.  Anyway, for someone who has no basic knowledge, nor genuine interest in learning, about the things which he speaks of, I find it curious that you are advising me to grow up.

All the best.


You say that “Islam is not lacking in any respect and does not lead to killing” yet above you propose reforms to correct the deficiencies in Islamic practice. You say:

As Muslims, we are commanded to be committed to justice. That commitment entails that as a community we oppose in the strongest terms “honor” killings and take immediate action to end such a practice in our communities.

Practical steps include the following:

1. Emphasize that such killings have no sanction in the Qur’an, the Prophetic practice, or in Islamic law.
2. Declare anyone guilty of involvement in honor killings to be a cold-blooded murderer.
3. Encourage judicial authorities to enact the harshest penalties possible for anyone accused of involvement in such killings.
4. Educate our Muslim communities, especially in the West, about the un-Islamic nature of honor killings, and the pressures, nuances, challenges and complications facing young Muslims, male and female in the West.
5. Work to eliminate the double standards, and to expose the hypocrisy that exist in our communities, generally, concerning attitudes and standards relating to the indiscretions of males as opposed to females.


How can Islam be “not lacking in any respect” while still needing reform by immediate action, condemnation of murder, opposition to honor killings, judicial encouragement, education, elimination of double standards and elimination of hypocrisy? This is double-speak and hypocrisy in itself

Some honesty here, to yourself, if not to others will facilitate your maturation.

 

Stay Well

Wot

Islam is not lacking, Muslims are.  Islam does not need reform, Muslims do.  If Muslims were to become more “Islamic”, this would be a good thing, this is the type of reform needed.  There is no double speak and hypocrisy here, only a clear lack of understanding on your part.

Oh, now I am beginning to understand. Islam is not lacking. What is lacking are the Muslims who need to be more Islamic and myself who needs a clear understanding.
The Koran is the handbook of Islam so let’s see what clear understandings it offers to Muslims to be more Islamic on some of the topics we have discussed.

From the Koran:

War is ordained by Allah, and all Muslims must be willing to fight, whether they like it or not. 2:216

Have no unbelieving friends. Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them. 4:89

A woman is worth one-half a man. 2:282

Men are in charge of women, because Allah made men to be better than women. Refuse to have sex with women from whom you fear rebellion, and scourge them. 4:34

When it’s time to pray and you have just used the toilet or touched a woman, be sure to wash up. If you can’t find any water, just rub some dirt on yourself. 5:6

Those with Muhammad are ruthless toward disbelievers and merciful toward themselves. 48:29

If you refuse to fight for Allah, he will punish you with a painful doom. 48:16

Smite the necks of the disbelievers whenever you fight against them. Those who die fighting for Allah will be rewarded. 47:4

Muslims that make friends with disbelievers will face a doom prepared for them by Allah. 5:80

Now, the above only deals with proper Islamic behavior in this world from the text. What happens in the next world is another issue.
It does seem clear that Muslims have been victimized by a false and corrupt text book - not the other way around as you suggest.

In another thread you said that you would welcome living in an Islamic republic. My circle of friends includes a group of Iranian Muslims who fled that Islamic theocracy due to just the things we have discussed here. They clearly disagree with you. You may be familiar with Yusuf Islam (Cat Stevens)who had your perspective on living in an Islamic Republic. I do admire him since he had the guts to pick up and leave. Since the establishment here is unlikely you might consider following his example.

Why don’t you shut up and get goin’
-West Side Story

Stay Well
Wot

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Posted: 11 June 2008 02:29 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]  
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The rules are surprisingly gentle, really (no bruising, though I’m sure fundy/literalist/brainless types who actually buy this interpretation of the rules find ways to seriously violate their substance while maintaining the form), but personally I’d like to see how these rules would play out if a devout Muslim were to marry a foreign woman (arranged) who, unbeknownst to him was a martial artist and something of a feminist (at least for a Muslim woman). Muslims who take such an attitude of presumed authority over women for no valid reason (and “the Koran/Bible/Grand Poobah says so” is utter bullshit to any adult who have even a minimally valid concept of honor and intellectual responsibility—i.e. anyone who has achieved psychological adulthood) would be best served to learn humility the hard way if they refuse to do so the honest and non-moronic way.

“If she has been hurt, the husband is held liable for what he has done, because the woman is not his merchandise.”

Yeah. I’d like to see how the husband is allegedly held liable. But if sincere rather than deceitful religiospeak (serious intellectual cowardice—the refusal to face, much less accept the true nature of one’s beliefs, one of the benchmarks of hard core Western/Middle-Eastern religion), from what I can tell the notion that the woman is not her husband’s merchandise sadly seems pretty damn progressive for a Muslim cleric (assuming this guy is a cleric). Demonstrating some actual integrity and compassion and most other positive character traits would place this guy head and shoulders above his depraved peers.

I sincerely hope I’m wrong about “standard issue” Muslims, because I really prefer not to think ill of people. If they give me almost any credible reason I’m pretty quick to give others the benefit of the doubt.

Byron

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“We say, ‘Love your brother…’ We don’t say it really, but… Well we don’t literally say it. We don’t really, literally mean it. No, we don’t believe it either, but… But that message should be clear.”—David St. Hubbins

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Posted: 11 June 2008 02:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]  
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Wotansson - 11 June 2008 05:23 PM
Jack Shooter - 11 June 2008 08:44 AM
Wotansson - 10 June 2008 08:53 AM
Jack Shooter - 09 June 2008 11:52 PM
Wotansson - 09 June 2008 08:32 AM

Jack

You have only provided the correct unequivocal answer to one of the five questions which gives you the failing grade of 20% - not good at all. After reading all your posts in this thread plus some others, I can’t see that you speak for the thinking, practices and customs in the Muslim community. Perhaps you are a reformer but your vision is of what Islam should be and not what the reality is.

But don’t despair. I do have some constructive suggestions for you. First grow up and become a thinking adult. Consider the distinct possibility that Allah does not exist and never has and is only the construct of the minds of men. Then consider that Mohammed was only a man and like Jesus, had some good things to say. The mature man must separate the good and useful from the destructive nonsense. Religions should be judged by what they contribute to humanity rather than by blind obedience to a hypothetical Allah or any text book. By this measure, nearly all religions are found wanting, and Islam is in there with the worst. If the practice of any religion leads to killing or violence, then that is a bad religion by definition. The practice of the religion, meaning what it leads people to do, is what is important, not the theoretical text book.

Religion is the science of the child. Science is the religion of the mature man.

- Mangasarian


Stay Well
Wot

Evidently, you don’t know the “thinking, practices, and customs” in the Muslim community, at least not better than I.  You focus on the negative aspects and charactize all Muslims and the religion itself accordingly, but that is short sightedness on your part.  Anyway, after studying Islam at a basic level, which I am sure is more than what you have studied, I can strongly say that Islam is not lacking in any respect, and certainly does not lead to killing, anymore than, say, belief in democracy.  Anyway, for someone who has no basic knowledge, nor genuine interest in learning, about the things which he speaks of, I find it curious that you are advising me to grow up.

All the best.


You say that “Islam is not lacking in any respect and does not lead to killing” yet above you propose reforms to correct the deficiencies in Islamic practice. You say:

As Muslims, we are commanded to be committed to justice. That commitment entails that as a community we oppose in the strongest terms “honor” killings and take immediate action to end such a practice in our communities.

Practical steps include the following:

1. Emphasize that such killings have no sanction in the Qur’an, the Prophetic practice, or in Islamic law.
2. Declare anyone guilty of involvement in honor killings to be a cold-blooded murderer.
3. Encourage judicial authorities to enact the harshest penalties possible for anyone accused of involvement in such killings.
4. Educate our Muslim communities, especially in the West, about the un-Islamic nature of honor killings, and the pressures, nuances, challenges and complications facing young Muslims, male and female in the West.
5. Work to eliminate the double standards, and to expose the hypocrisy that exist in our communities, generally, concerning attitudes and standards relating to the indiscretions of males as opposed to females.


How can Islam be “not lacking in any respect” while still needing reform by immediate action, condemnation of murder, opposition to honor killings, judicial encouragement, education, elimination of double standards and elimination of hypocrisy? This is double-speak and hypocrisy in itself

Some honesty here, to yourself, if not to others will facilitate your maturation.

 

Stay Well

Wot

Islam is not lacking, Muslims are.  Islam does not need reform, Muslims do.  If Muslims were to become more “Islamic”, this would be a good thing, this is the type of reform needed.  There is no double speak and hypocrisy here, only a clear lack of understanding on your part.

Oh, now I am beginning to understand. Islam is not lacking. What is lacking are the Muslims who need to be more Islamic and myself who needs a clear understanding.
The Koran is the handbook of Islam so let’s see what clear understandings it offers to Muslims to be more Islamic on some of the topics we have discussed.

From the Koran:

War is ordained by Allah, and all Muslims must be willing to fight, whether they like it or not. 2:216

Have no unbelieving friends. Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them. 4:89

A woman is worth one-half a man. 2:282

Men are in charge of women, because Allah made men to be better than women. Refuse to have sex with women from whom you fear rebellion, and scourge them. 4:34

When it’s time to pray and you have just used the toilet or touched a woman, be sure to wash up. If you can’t find any water, just rub some dirt on yourself. 5:6

Those with Muhammad are ruthless toward disbelievers and merciful toward themselves. 48:29

If you refuse to fight for Allah, he will punish you with a painful doom. 48:16

Smite the necks of the disbelievers whenever you fight against them. Those who die fighting for Allah will be rewarded. 47:4

Muslims that make friends with disbelievers will face a doom prepared for them by Allah. 5:80

Now, the above only deals with proper Islamic behavior in this world from the text. What happens in the next world is another issue.
It does seem clear that Muslims have been victimized by a false and corrupt text book - not the other way around as you suggest.

In another thread you said that you would welcome living in an Islamic republic. My circle of friends includes a group of Iranian Muslims who fled that Islamic theocracy due to just the things we have discussed here. They clearly disagree with you. You may be familiar with Yusuf Islam (Cat Stevens)who had your perspective on living in an Islamic Republic. I do admire him since he had the guts to pick up and leave. Since the establishment here is unlikely you might consider following his example.

Why don’t you shut up and get goin’
-West Side Story

Stay Well
Wot

First of all, those are terribly translated verses.  Secondly, a sign of intelligence is understanding parts within the whole, that is knowing where smaller things fit within the larger system or context.  All of the quotes you have cited above have a context and proper application.  That you are ignorant of these facts is naturally a reflection only of your ignorance.

I am familiar with the Cat.  And actually, he hasn’t gone anywhere.  Haven’t you heard his latest album “An Other Cup”?  His fans, both Muslim and non-Muslim, love it.

Why don’t you take the example of some learned people and learn a little bit about the things of which you speak.

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Posted: 11 June 2008 02:45 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]  
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SkepticX - 11 June 2008 06:29 PM

The rules are surprisingly gentle, really (no bruising, though I’m sure fundy/literalist/brainless types who actually buy this interpretation of the rules find ways to seriously violate their substance while maintaining the form), but personally I’d like to see how these rules would play out if a devout Muslim were to marry a foreign woman (arranged) who, unbeknownst to him was a martial artist and something of a feminist (at least for a Muslim woman). Muslims who take such an attitude of presumed authority over women for no valid reason (and “the Koran/Bible/Grand Poobah says so” is utter bullshit to any adult who have even a minimally valid concept of honor and intellectual responsibility—i.e. anyone who has achieved psychological adulthood) would be best served to learn humility the hard way if they refuse to do so the honest and non-moronic way.

“If she has been hurt, the husband is held liable for what he has done, because the woman is not his merchandise.”

Yeah. I’d like to see how the husband is allegedly held liable. But if sincere rather than deceitful religiospeak (serious intellectual cowardice—the refusal to face, much less accept the true nature of one’s beliefs, one of the benchmarks of hard core Western/Middle-Eastern religion), from what I can tell the notion that the woman is not her husband’s merchandise sadly seems pretty damn progressive for a Muslim cleric (assuming this guy is a cleric). Demonstrating some actual integrity and compassion and most other positive character traits would place this guy head and shoulders above his depraved peers.

I sincerely hope I’m wrong about “standard issue” Muslims, because I really prefer not to think ill of people. If they give me almost any credible reason I’m pretty quick to give others the benefit of the doubt.

Byron

Why don’t you refer to the sites I posted so you can learn how Islam views women.

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Posted: 11 June 2008 02:47 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]  
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(and “the Koran/Bible/Grand Poobah says so” is utter bullshit to any adult who have even a minimally valid concept of honor and intellectual responsibility—i.e. anyone who has achieved psychological adulthood)

Oh crap. I guess I’ll need to quit The Loyal Order of Water Buffaloes now. I suppose that next you will denounce The Great Gazoo as well.

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Posted: 11 June 2008 04:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]  
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It is as if I am seeing the Messenger of God as he related the story of an earlier prophet who was beaten bloody by his people. All the while he was wiping the blood from his face and supplicating, “O God! Forgive my people for they know not what they do.”
– Ibn Mas’ud

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Posted: 11 June 2008 06:50 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]  
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First of all, those are terribly translated verses.  Secondly, a sign of intelligence is understanding parts within the whole, that is knowing where smaller things fit within the larger system or context.  All of the quotes you have cited above have a context and proper application.  That you are ignorant of these facts is naturally a reflection only of your ignorance.

I am familiar with the Cat.  And actually, he hasn’t gone anywhere.  Haven’t you heard his latest album “An Other Cup”?  His fans, both Muslim and non-Muslim, love it.

Why don’t you take the example of some learned people and learn a little bit about the things of which you speak.

Okay Jack. Since you speak as if you were learned, and claim to be so, show me the context and proper application and also how the context changes the meaning in any way. Do help me correct my ignorance. So far I have not been able to find a single Islamic scholar who is not spewing lame explanations, hypocrisy and double-speak.

Stay Well
Wot

Stay Well

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Posted: 11 June 2008 08:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]  
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Jack Shooter - 11 June 2008 06:45 PM

Why don’t you refer to the sites I posted so you can learn how Islam views women.

I have too strong a sense of honesty and intellectual integrity to go the same route as most believers. I value the actual evidence (how believers actually behave) rather than the rhetoric.

Byron

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“We say, ‘Love your brother…’ We don’t say it really, but… Well we don’t literally say it. We don’t really, literally mean it. No, we don’t believe it either, but… But that message should be clear.”—David St. Hubbins

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Posted: 12 June 2008 05:15 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]  
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At the moment I’m attending a meeting in England (Bristol).  On Tuesday, there was a column in the local paper, written by a young Muslim man.  Apparently, he has a weekly column devoted to the experiences of being a Muslim in England.  In this column he was talking about the need for Muslims to begin a dialog on women’s rights in Islam.  He quoted a verse from the Quran to the effect that men and women are equal, all that God considers is the purity of the soul; and said that the equal rights of women were well spelled out in the Quran and Hadith.  He then said that he had suggested to the local Imam that he give a sermon on this in the mosque.  The Imam refused, on the orders of the oversight committee, composed of elderly Asian males, for the reason: “If he were to give that sermon, who would cook our meals and clean our houses?”

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Posted: 12 June 2008 05:22 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]  
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Wotansson - 11 June 2008 10:50 PM

First of all, those are terribly translated verses.  Secondly, a sign of intelligence is understanding parts within the whole, that is knowing where smaller things fit within the larger system or context.  All of the quotes you have cited above have a context and proper application.  That you are ignorant of these facts is naturally a reflection only of your ignorance.

I am familiar with the Cat.  And actually, he hasn’t gone anywhere.  Haven’t you heard his latest album “An Other Cup”?  His fans, both Muslim and non-Muslim, love it.

Why don’t you take the example of some learned people and learn a little bit about the things of which you speak.

Okay Jack. Since you speak as if you were learned, and claim to be so, show me the context and proper application and also how the context changes the meaning in any way. Do help me correct my ignorance. So far I have not been able to find a single Islamic scholar who is not spewing lame explanations, hypocrisy and double-speak.

Stay Well
Wot

Stay Well

Wot, you were resourceful enough to dig up all of those poorly translated verses, put a little effort in, and I’m sure you will be able to find the correct answers to your questions, just try to be objective and sincere.  I’ve already posted enough websites you can visit if you like.  I’m not going to spoon feed you all the information, you’ll have to do a little research of your own, and as I said before, I am sure you are more than capable.

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Posted: 12 June 2008 05:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]  
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SkepticX - 12 June 2008 12:01 AM
Jack Shooter - 11 June 2008 06:45 PM

Why don’t you refer to the sites I posted so you can learn how Islam views women.

I have too strong a sense of honesty and intellectual integrity to go the same route as most believers. I value the actual evidence (how believers actually behave) rather than the rhetoric.

Byron

Sure you value the evidence.  And that is why you disbelieve, because there is so much evidence telling us that God does not exist smile  Actually, you and I both know that this is not true, and if you really have a sense of honesty and ‘intellectual integrity’ as you claim to have, you would admit it, and even go so far as to admit that what you follow is in fact rhetoric.  In fact, considering all of the failed attempts to explain religion away from the perspective of psychology, anthropology, biology, and so forth, I would even say that the evidence that God does not exist is the greatest rhetoric ever put forth.

[ Edited: 12 June 2008 05:32 AM by Jack Shooter]
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Posted: 12 June 2008 05:44 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]  
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Uh huh ... right.

rolleyes

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Posted: 12 June 2008 05:46 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]  
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burt - 12 June 2008 09:15 AM

At the moment I’m attending a meeting in England (Bristol).  On Tuesday, there was a column in the local paper, written by a young Muslim man.  Apparently, he has a weekly column devoted to the experiences of being a Muslim in England.  In this column he was talking about the need for Muslims to begin a dialog on women’s rights in Islam.  He quoted a verse from the Quran to the effect that men and women are equal, all that God considers is the purity of the soul; and said that the equal rights of women were well spelled out in the Quran and Hadith.  He then said that he had suggested to the local Imam that he give a sermon on this in the mosque.  The Imam refused, on the orders of the oversight committee, composed of elderly Asian males, for the reason: “If he were to give that sermon, who would cook our meals and clean our houses?”

What the young writer says is true.  And in a disturbing way, what the Imam said is also true.  Women in Islam are equal to men, and in a marriage situation, I believe according to three of the four schools of thought in Sunni Islam, a women is not legally obliged to cook or clean for her spouse, although it might be considered a moral obligation if the husband cannot do these things for himself due to work, for example. Unfortunately, however, cultural norms have placed the burden of domestic chores on women, not only in Muslim society, but Western society too.  Let’s not forget that today women in the West are still the ones doing all the unpaid labor.

At any rate, I think the Imam is worried, perhaps rightly or wrongly, that focusing on women’s rights could result in the breakdown of family life, which as I said, is predicated on cultural norms, rather than religious ones.  In my experience, women that are treated with love and kindness, even while knowing that Islam does not place any legal responsibility on them to cook and clean for their spouse, don’t mind doing so, they actually enjoy it, something the Imam apparently fails to understand.

Like the young writer, I would agree that Muslim men need to learn about the rights alloted to women within Islam.

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