3 of 3
3
Rules for Wife Beating
Posted: 12 June 2008 05:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]  
Member
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  885
Joined  2008-01-23
SkepticX - 12 June 2008 09:44 AM

Uh huh ... right.

rolleyes

I love sarcasm.  Tell me then, what is it that you believe?

Profile
 
 
Posted: 12 June 2008 11:16 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]  
Member
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  819
Joined  2004-12-21
Jack Shooter - 12 June 2008 09:22 AM
Wotansson - 11 June 2008 10:50 PM

First of all, those are terribly translated verses.  Secondly, a sign of intelligence is understanding parts within the whole, that is knowing where smaller things fit within the larger system or context.  All of the quotes you have cited above have a context and proper application.  That you are ignorant of these facts is naturally a reflection only of your ignorance.

I am familiar with the Cat.  And actually, he hasn’t gone anywhere.  Haven’t you heard his latest album “An Other Cup”?  His fans, both Muslim and non-Muslim, love it.

Why don’t you take the example of some learned people and learn a little bit about the things of which you speak.

Okay Jack. Since you speak as if you were learned, and claim to be so, show me the context and proper application and also how the context changes the meaning in any way. Do help me correct my ignorance. So far I have not been able to find a single Islamic scholar who is not spewing lame explanations, hypocrisy and double-speak.

Stay Well
Wot

Stay Well

Wot, you were resourceful enough to dig up all of those poorly translated verses, put a little effort in, and I’m sure you will be able to find the correct answers to your questions, just try to be objective and sincere.  I’ve already posted enough websites you can visit if you like.  I’m not going to spoon feed you all the information, you’ll have to do a little research of your own, and as I said before, I am sure you are more than capable.

Hi Jack
Sorry but I am not capable of doing the translations myself. I am only fluent in English and and German less so. I have however, read the Bible (new and old several times), the Koran, the Book of Mormon plus some readings from the far eastern religions. After reading these and practicing one of the religions for many years I came to some reasonable conclusions:

All religions are the creations of man, not of gods, and are therefore subject to error and corruption by the practitioners. None of the texts are the literal or inspired words of any god. These are therefore false religions with false beliefs. I know you agree except for the case of Islam which you consider to be the one true faith. Correct me if I am wrong about your conclusions concerning Islam.

Religions and their texts only have value when viewed in terms of what they do to improve the human condition or of the cosmos, if you can relate. By this measure all religions are deficient and false to humanity. All texts and religious practice must be viewed critically through the filter of, and the perspective of, common sense. By this method the truth is revealed, both the good and bad. Blind obedience, while demanded by most faiths, is a fatal error.

All religion is the refuge of the weak-minded, the coward and the oppressor.
The weak-minded cannot accept the thought that there may not be some omnipotent father who cares for them on a personal level, no matter how contradictory, cruel and senseless his actions may be declared. They insist that they understand the nature of the deity completely and have a text book to prove it. Their ego insists that there in nothing unknown and unrevealed to them. They fear debate since their beliefs cannot be supported by either facts or reason.
The coward cannot face the concept of his own death and passing. His fear of death is so intense that he commits the most immoral acts in this world in the hope of salvation to the next world. He is motivated in this world by his fear of eternal punishment in the next.
The oppressor seeks to wield power over the religious followers by use of the religious customs, precepts and texts. He bends the faith to his purposes. The oppressor has little trouble in justifying war, killing, slavery, and the oppression of women and children. All the tools are handed to him by the religion. His defense is always - god says so.

Religion is, and always has been, the world’s most divisive force. Religion fails to inspire any morality in its followers and provides a convenient way to hold others in contempt. It becomes easy to dehumanize others if we can dismiss them as infidels, be they Jews, Christians, Muslims, Mormons, or even atheists. The contempt is easily converted to violence against the infidel and most texts demand it. 

So Jack, here is the full splendor of my ignorance, as you call it. I call it a small glimpse of enlightenment and can only hope that you achieve a measure yourself.

Stay Well

Wot

Profile
 
 
Posted: 12 June 2008 12:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]  
Member
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  885
Joined  2008-01-23
Wotansson - 12 June 2008 03:16 PM
Jack Shooter - 12 June 2008 09:22 AM
Wotansson - 11 June 2008 10:50 PM

First of all, those are terribly translated verses.  Secondly, a sign of intelligence is understanding parts within the whole, that is knowing where smaller things fit within the larger system or context.  All of the quotes you have cited above have a context and proper application.  That you are ignorant of these facts is naturally a reflection only of your ignorance.

I am familiar with the Cat.  And actually, he hasn’t gone anywhere.  Haven’t you heard his latest album “An Other Cup”?  His fans, both Muslim and non-Muslim, love it.

Why don’t you take the example of some learned people and learn a little bit about the things of which you speak.

Okay Jack. Since you speak as if you were learned, and claim to be so, show me the context and proper application and also how the context changes the meaning in any way. Do help me correct my ignorance. So far I have not been able to find a single Islamic scholar who is not spewing lame explanations, hypocrisy and double-speak.

Stay Well
Wot

Stay Well

Wot, you were resourceful enough to dig up all of those poorly translated verses, put a little effort in, and I’m sure you will be able to find the correct answers to your questions, just try to be objective and sincere.  I’ve already posted enough websites you can visit if you like.  I’m not going to spoon feed you all the information, you’ll have to do a little research of your own, and as I said before, I am sure you are more than capable.

Hi Jack
Sorry but I am not capable of doing the translations myself. I am only fluent in English and and German less so. I have however, read the Bible (new and old several times), the Koran, the Book of Mormon plus some readings from the far eastern religions. After reading these and practicing one of the religions for many years I came to some reasonable conclusions:

All religions are the creations of man, not of gods, and are therefore subject to error and corruption by the practitioners. None of the texts are the literal or inspired words of any god. These are therefore false religions with false beliefs. I know you agree except for the case of Islam which you consider to be the one true faith. Correct me if I am wrong about your conclusions concerning Islam.

Religions and their texts only have value when viewed in terms of what they do to improve the human condition or of the cosmos, if you can relate. By this measure all religions are deficient and false to humanity. All texts and religious practice must be viewed critically through the filter of, and the perspective of, common sense. By this method the truth is revealed, both the good and bad. Blind obedience, while demanded by most faiths, is a fatal error.

All religion is the refuge of the weak-minded, the coward and the oppressor.
The weak-minded cannot accept the thought that there may not be some omnipotent father who cares for them on a personal level, no matter how contradictory, cruel and senseless his actions may be declared. They insist that they understand the nature of the deity completely and have a text book to prove it. Their ego insists that there in nothing unknown and unrevealed to them. They fear debate since their beliefs cannot be supported by either facts or reason.
The coward cannot face the concept of his own death and passing. His fear of death is so intense that he commits the most immoral acts in this world in the hope of salvation to the next world. He is motivated in this world by his fear of eternal punishment in the next.
The oppressor seeks to wield power over the religious followers by use of the religious customs, precepts and texts. He bends the faith to his purposes. The oppressor has little trouble in justifying war, killing, slavery, and the oppression of women and children. All the tools are handed to him by the religion. His defense is always - god says so.

Religion is, and always has been, the world’s most divisive force. Religion fails to inspire any morality in its followers and provides a convenient way to hold others in contempt. It becomes easy to dehumanize others if we can dismiss them as infidels, be they Jews, Christians, Muslims, Mormons, or even atheists. The contempt is easily converted to violence against the infidel and most texts demand it. 

So Jack, here is the full splendor of my ignorance, as you call it. I call it a small glimpse of enlightenment and can only hope that you achieve a measure yourself.

Stay Well

Wot

You raise a lot of important issues, but nothing novel.  When I have time, I hope to respond adequately to them.

For now, I would like to know on what basis you feel the Qur’an is not the word of God.  Have you studied its history?

[ Edited: 12 June 2008 12:26 PM by Jack Shooter]
Profile
 
 
Posted: 12 June 2008 04:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]  
Member
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  819
Joined  2004-12-21

You raise a lot of important issues, but nothing novel.  When I have time, I hope to respond adequately to them.

For now, I would like to know on what basis you feel the Qur’an is not the word of God.  Have you studied its history?

Jack
I will look forward to your adequate response.

It is not necessary to study the history of the Koran. No one can even prove even the existence of Allah so the history of a document either attributed to him, or to his inspired followers, is not relevant. It is strictly a matter of faith and belief. The documents and Allah need to be evaluated based on what they say and how they lead the followers to behave.

As to my beliefs, I cannot bring myself to believe in the existence of a savage, vindictive, violent, and murderous god as portrayed in the Koran, Torah or Bible. If there are gods, they are not Allah or Yahweh. Many of the American Founding Fathers shared this view and were called Deists. They were monotheists but did not believe that Yahweh was God for exactly the reasons I stated. They did believe in the existence of an unrevealed god of whom we knew nothing. Thomas Payne was the most vocal on this exact topic and his views were shared by Jefferson, Franklin, Adams and others.


Stay Well
Wot

Profile
 
 
Posted: 13 June 2008 01:03 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]  
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1646
Joined  2008-04-02

Very nicely stated Wotansson.

 Signature 

Real honesty is accepting the theories that best explain the actual data even if those explanations contradict our cherished beliefs.-Scotty

Profile
 
 
Posted: 14 June 2008 11:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]  
Member
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  885
Joined  2008-01-23
Wotansson - 12 June 2008 08:06 PM

You raise a lot of important issues, but nothing novel.  When I have time, I hope to respond adequately to them.

For now, I would like to know on what basis you feel the Qur’an is not the word of God.  Have you studied its history?

Jack
I will look forward to your adequate response.

It is not necessary to study the history of the Koran. No one can even prove even the existence of Allah so the history of a document either attributed to him, or to his inspired followers, is not relevant. It is strictly a matter of faith and belief. The documents and Allah need to be evaluated based on what they say and how they lead the followers to behave.

As to my beliefs, I cannot bring myself to believe in the existence of a savage, vindictive, violent, and murderous god as portrayed in the Koran, Torah or Bible. If there are gods, they are not Allah or Yahweh. Many of the American Founding Fathers shared this view and were called Deists. They were monotheists but did not believe that Yahweh was God for exactly the reasons I stated. They did believe in the existence of an unrevealed god of whom we knew nothing. Thomas Payne was the most vocal on this exact topic and his views were shared by Jefferson, Franklin, Adams and others.


Stay Well
Wot

“It is not necessary to study….”???

But surely one needs to study any subject in order to have an accurate understanding of it.  The more thorough one study’s a thing, the more accurate his/her understanding is likely to be.  Likewise, to dismiss it prematurely without undertaking such study usually reflects a state of ignorance on the part of one who does so.

Now, somehow you have come to believe that God is ‘vindictive, violent, and murderous,’ in the Qur’an, perhaps based on the few verses you read that appeared to demonstrate this.  However, I suggest, as before, that you learn the proper context of such verses, before making such conclusions, which are erroneous and based on a lack of information on your part.  I trust that if you were to do so, you would come to find the statement of the Prophet (peace be upon him) is true: “God is beautiful, and he loves that which is beautiful” and there is far more evidence for this view within the Qur’an, moreover in the universe itself, than the negative view you propose.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 15 June 2008 03:44 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]  
Member
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  819
Joined  2004-12-21
Jack Shooter - 15 June 2008 03:36 AM
Wotansson - 12 June 2008 08:06 PM

You raise a lot of important issues, but nothing novel.  When I have time, I hope to respond adequately to them.

For now, I would like to know on what basis you feel the Qur’an is not the word of God.  Have you studied its history?

Jack
I will look forward to your adequate response.

It is not necessary to study the history of the Koran. No one can even prove even the existence of Allah so the history of a document either attributed to him, or to his inspired followers, is not relevant. It is strictly a matter of faith and belief. The documents and Allah need to be evaluated based on what they say and how they lead the followers to behave.

As to my beliefs, I cannot bring myself to believe in the existence of a savage, vindictive, violent, and murderous god as portrayed in the Koran, Torah or Bible. If there are gods, they are not Allah or Yahweh. Many of the American Founding Fathers shared this view and were called Deists. They were monotheists but did not believe that Yahweh was God for exactly the reasons I stated. They did believe in the existence of an unrevealed god of whom we knew nothing. Thomas Payne was the most vocal on this exact topic and his views were shared by Jefferson, Franklin, Adams and others.


Stay Well
Wot

“It is not necessary to study….”???

But surely one needs to study any subject in order to have an accurate understanding of it.  The more thorough one study’s a thing, the more accurate his/her understanding is likely to be.  Likewise, to dismiss it prematurely without undertaking such study usually reflects a state of ignorance on the part of one who does so.

Now, somehow you have come to believe that God is ‘vindictive, violent, and murderous,’ in the Qur’an, perhaps based on the few verses you read that appeared to demonstrate this.  However, I suggest, as before, that you learn the proper context of such verses, before making such conclusions, which are erroneous and based on a lack of information on your part.  I trust that if you were to do so, you would come to find the statement of the Prophet (peace be upon him) is true: “God is beautiful, and he loves that which is beautiful” and there is far more evidence for this view within the Qur’an, moreover in the universe itself, than the negative view you propose.

Jack

How old are you anyway?

Profile
 
 
   
3 of 3
3
 
RSS 2.0     Atom Feed