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Posted: 17 November 2008 09:24 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]  
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I’ve been a pro-life atheist long before I knew so few people had heard of us. And I am pro-life, not just anti-abortion.

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Posted: 17 November 2008 09:55 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]  
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Nulono - 17 November 2008 02:24 PM

I’ve been a pro-life atheist long before I knew so few people had heard of us.

No, you’re purely or dominantly pro-human-life, evidently because you assume or assert something precious about human life. We have to kill in order to eat, and you’re not proposing any alternatives to that. It really doesn’t take a doctoral degree for a person to have a sense of self-preservation, but to radiate that to the entire human race, uncritically, especially and emphasizing the part of it that is not born yet, is - to say the least - a kind of religion. You’re quite evangelical about it, really.

Before you make the leap to according special status to human beings simply because of your own sense of self-preservation, or because of a sneaking suspicion that almost all other people find you tedious and trivial, try to get a second opinion.

However, you cannot, as I say, even put two coherent sentences together about what makes the human race “special”. I suspect you’ve inherited this zeal from previous religious indoctrination. Let me recommend a Twelve-Step Program for you, sir. You’re simply intoxicated by your own blithering idiocy.

[ Edited: 17 November 2008 09:58 AM by Traces Elk]
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Posted: 17 November 2008 10:07 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]  
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I think most all rational people are pro-life. I personally do not know anyone that is pro death. However, when humans have to decide on life or death, in a private individual moral matter, it’s better that they make that ‘choice’ than it is for any government entity to make it.

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Posted: 17 November 2008 10:24 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]  
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But not when you are deciding the death of another. That’s called homicicide, and the government properly intervenes in most such cases. It is not an individual matter. It involves (at least) two. Nothing that involves the initiation of force is a private moral matter. There is no such thing as such. If one only one option is morally acceptable, the government must step in. If a man is going to kill his daughter to cash in on the insurance, no matter how hard said choice is to make, it is not a private moral matter. The goverment has an obligation to step in.

There is no right to choose to initiate force or fraud. Bank robbery, rape, murder, etc. are not private moral matters.

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Posted: 17 November 2008 10:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]  
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Nulono - 17 November 2008 03:24 PM

...the government properly intervenes in most such cases.

It does not do to say the government properly intervenes unless you define propriety. All you establish with your assertion is a collection of nation-states each of which is feverishly promoting procreation and effacing homicide (within its own jurisdiction) in order to have a bigger army than any other nation state.

Your philosophy thus amounts to making the nation-state the apotheosis of human endeavor. Or is it just one nation-state in particular? You haven’t really done anything but evade the need to explicate your philosophy. That you understand your own incompetence in these matters is clear, so your evasion is quite to be expected.

You will never give up the goods, which for libertarians is to pile up as much wealth as possible on one privately-owned plot of land. To each his own, I guess. The suckers who go for libertarianism on this fantasy are not the ones who are going to make out the best in such a scheme, because they are not clever enough by half.

[ Edited: 17 November 2008 10:52 AM by Traces Elk]
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Posted: 17 November 2008 11:12 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]  
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‘But not when you are deciding the death of another’

Ever hear of Terry Shiavo? State have a right to intervene with that? Thought so.

An unborn fetus does not belong to the state. It is parasitically bound to the mother that carries it. The mother is a living functioning human being. The embryo/fetus is not. Sorry, mother gets the call, with possible influence from the father or whomever else she wishes to converse with.

Here is an essay from Michael Shermer considering science and abortion. Valuable things here.

  Fuzzy Logic & Fuzzy Life
In 1959 astronomers were polled for their opinion on the then undecided debate between two competing cosmological theories. “Did the universe begin with a Big Bang several thousand million years ago?” A third answered yes. “Is matter continuously created in space?” Almost half answered yes. Most telling, to the question “Is a poll of this kind helpful to scientific progress?” all answered no.

The reason for this unanimity is that scientific questions are not settled by consensus opinion. Unfortunately, in complex human and social issues, separating fact from opinion is not so easy, and for no issue is this more apparent than abortion. Setting aside the emotionally charged moral and political aspects of abortion for a moment, how can science inform this debate?

At the core of the moral and political question of whether or not aborting a fetus constitutes murder is the scientific question of when a fetus becomes a human being. Supreme Court Justice Harry A. Blackmun, writing for the 7-2 majority ruling in the 1973 Roe v. Wade decision, concluded: “When those trained in the respective disciplines of medicine, philosophy and theology are unable to arrive at any consensus, the judiciary, at this point in the development of man’s knowledge, is not in a position to speculate as to the answer.”

The problem is one of logic, not knowledge. Legal and political decisions are grounded in binary logic in which unambiguous yeses and noes determine final Truths. The law must make a determination on a case, a hard and fast ruling by which we are to abide. And political issues are settled by a consensus process called democracy. By contrast, science is grounded in fuzzy logic in which ambiguous probabilities determine provisional truths. Error bars accompany data graphs, p (probability) values are designated in decimal percentages indicating the likelihood of chance accounting for the finding, and caveats and cautions are sprinkled throughout conclusions.

In the abortion debate here is how the difference between binary and fuzzy logic plays out. Most Pro-Lifers believe that human life begins at conception — before conception not-life, after conception, life. Binary logic. Binary life. With fuzzy logic we can assign a probability to human life — before conception 0, the moment of conception, .1, multi-cellular blastocyst, .2, one-month old embryo, .3, two-month old fetus, .4, and so on until birth, when the fetus becomes a 1.0 human life form. Fuzzy logic. Fuzzy life.

The process does not sound very romantic, but from a scientific perspective human life is a fuzzy continuum. Neither egg nor sperm is a human individual, nor is the zygote or blastocyst because they might split to become twins, or stop developing and naturally abort. The eight-week old fetus has recognizable human features such as face, hands, and feet, but neuronal synaptic connections are still being made so thought is not possible. Only after eight weeks do embryos begin to show primitive response movements, but not until seven months does the fetus develop sufficient neocortical complexity to exhibit some of the cognitive capacities typically found in full-term newborns (in between, the fetus may respond reflexively to stimuli but this in no way can be construed as sentience). Fetus EEG recordings with the characteristics of an adult EEG appear at approximately 30 weeks. In other words, the capacity for human thought does not exist until just six weeks before birth.

Autonomy is also an issue. Between two and six months the fetus could not exist on its own because such critical organs as the lungs and kidneys do not mature before that time. For example, air sac development sufficient for gas exchange does not occur until at least 23 weeks after gestation, and often later. Since virtually no abortions are performed after the second trimester, and before then there is no scientific evidence that the fetus is an autonomous thinking human individual (most scientists agree that of all the characteristics used to define what it means to be human, the capacity to think is the most important), the case for abortion as murder cannot be based on scientific grounds.

Unfortunately, fuzzy thinking often prevails over fuzzy logic, where morality, politics, and science are confoundedly conflated. Moral issues are personal. Political issues are social. Scientific issues are factual. Pro-Choicers believe that whether a woman decides to abort a fetus or not is a personal moral issue. Pro-Lifers want to make it a political issue in which society makes that choice. The fuzzy logic of science reveals that there is no consensus on when a human life begins because it unfolds along a quantitative scale. Therefore, although one may oppose abortion for personal reasons, there is no scientific justification to shift the abortion issue from the personal to the political.

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Posted: 17 November 2008 12:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]  
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Why the Embryo or Fetus Is Not
a Parasite

by Thomas L. Johnson
Libertarians for Life
Copyright © 1974, Thomas L. Johnson  

a) A parasite is defined as an organism of one species living in or on an organism of another species (a heterospecific relationship) and deriving its nourishment from the host (is metabolically dependent on the host). (See Cheng, T.C., General Parasitology, p. 7, 1973.)

b) A human embryo or fetus is an organism of one species (Homo sapiens) living in the uterine cavity of an organism of the same species (Homo sapiens) and deriving its nourishment from the mother (is metabolically dependent on the mother). This homospecific relationship is an obligatory dependent relationship, but not a parasitic relationship.
a) A parasite is an invading organism—coming to parasitize the host from an outside source.

b) A human embryo or fetus is formed from a fertilized egg—the egg coming from an inside source, being formed in the ovary of the mother from where it moves into the oviduct where it may be fertilized to form the zygote—the first cell of the new human being.
a) A parasite is generally harmful to some degree to the host that is harboring the parasite.

b) A human embryo or fetus developing in the uterine cavity does not usually cause harm to the mother, although it may if proper nutrition and care is not maintained by the mother.
a) A parasite makes direct contact with the host’s tissues, often holding on by either mouth parts, hooks or suckers to the tissues involved (intestinal lining, lungs, connective tissue, etc.).

b) A human embryo or fetus makes direct contact with the uterine lining of the mother for only a short period of time. It soon becomes isolated inside its own amniotic sac, and from that point on makes indirect contact with the mother only by way of the umbilical cord and placenta.
a) When a parasite invades host tissue, the host tissue will sometimes respond by forming a capsule (of connective tissue) to surround the parasite and cut it off from other surrounding tissue (examples would be Paragonimus westermani, lung fluke, or Oncocerca volvulus, a nematode worm causing cutaneous filariasis in the human).

b) When the human embryo or fetus attaches to and invades the lining tissue of the mother’s uterus, the lining tissue responds by surrounding the human embryo and does not cut it off from the mother, but rather establishes a means of close contact (the placenta) between the mother and the new human being.
a) When a parasite invades a host, the host will usually respond by forming antibodies in response to the somatic antigens (molecules comprising the body of the parasite) or metabolic antigens (molecules secreted or excreted by the parasite) of the parasite. Parasitism usually involves an immunological response on the part of the host. (See Cheng, T.C., General Parasitology, p. 8.)

b) New evidence, presented by Beer and Billingham in their article, “The Embryo as a Transplant” (Scientific American, April, 1974), indicates that the mother does react to the presence of the embryo by producing humoral antibodies, but they suggest that the trophoblast—the jacket of cells surrounding the embryo—blocks the action of these antibodies and therefore the embryo or fetus is not rejected. This reaction is unique to the embryo-mother relationship.
a) A parasite is generally detrimental to the reproductive capacity of the invaded host. The host may be weakened, diseased or killed by the parasite, thus reducing or eliminating the host’s capacity to reproduce.

b) A human embryo or fetus is absolutely essential to the reproductive capacity of the involved mother (and species). The mother is usually not weakened, diseased or killed by the presence of the embryo or fetus, but rather is fully tolerant of this offspring which must begin his or her life in this intimate and highly specialized relationship with the mother.
a) A parasite is an organism that, once it invades the definitive host, will usually remain with host for life (as long as it or the host survives).

b) A human embryo or fetus has a temporary association with the mother, remaining only a number of months in the uterus.

A parasite is an organism that associates with the host in a negative, unhealthy and nonessential (nonessential to the host) manner which will often damage the host and detrimentally affect the procreative capacity of the host (and species).

A human embryo or fetus is a human being that associates with the mother in a positive, healthful essential manner necessary for the procreation of the species.

[This data was compiled by Thomas L. Johnson, Professor of Biology, Mary Washington College, Fredericksburg, VA. Professor Johnson teaches Chordate Embryology and Parasitology. This is reprinted, with the author’s permission, from the National Right to Life News, April-May, 1974. It also appears in “The Position of Modern Science on the Beginning of Human Life,” by Scientists for Life. $1.75 plus postage for two ounces for each copy to: Sun Life, 2399 Cool Springs Road, Thaxton, VA 24174, 540/586-4898.]

Note: When some people claim preborn children are parasites, they mean “parasite” in its pejorative, that is, in its social-ethical sense. Prof. Johnson’s article addresses only the biological meaning of “parasite.” Libertarians for Life responds to the pejorative sense in other articles. Briefly, as libertarians, we strongly agree that women as well as men have the right to control their own bodies. Nonetheless, we hold that under principles of individual liberty, parents have the obligation to support their dependent children. Our children have a right to our support, whether they are in the crib or in the womb.


 
LFL’s literature and speakers are available to explain and defend the libertarian case against abortion choice. Our reasoning is expressly philosophical and scientific rather than either religious or pragmatic. A list of our literature is available in the Library section on both of our websites, http://www.L4L.org and www.LibertariansforLife.org.

Libertarians for Life
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“There is undoubtedly an important secular debate to be had about the ethics of embryonic stem cell research and abortion…” -Me

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Posted: 17 November 2008 12:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]  
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Nulono - 17 November 2008 05:32 PM

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Oh, mos’  def’, Nulono. Copying and pasting a web page. That’ll bring ‘em around in a hurry.

Learn how to use the <a> tag to post links. Saves bandwidth. I’m not pro-life. I’m pro-bandwidth.

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Posted: 17 November 2008 12:45 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]  
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Nulono - 17 November 2008 05:32 PM

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NonUseful Laughable Opinions. Nothing Original.

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Real honesty is accepting the theories that best explain the actual data even if those explanations contradict our cherished beliefs.-Scotty

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Posted: 17 November 2008 12:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]  
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Sorry. I know how to link, but, in aprevious discussion here, links were overlooked.

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“There is undoubtedly an important secular debate to be had about the ethics of the death penalty…” -Sam Harris
“There is undoubtedly an important secular debate to be had about the ethics of embryonic stem cell research and abortion…” -Me

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Salt Creek has discovered the meaning of the first half of “Nulono”. Now, what language uses “nul” for zero?

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Posted: 17 November 2008 01:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]  
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b) A human embryo or fetus has a temporary association with the mother, remaining only a number of months in the uterus’

A temporary association with the mother?!!!

LMAO!

Yeah, a parasitic one.

Can the devoloping fetus/embryo live without the mother and the nutrients provided? How does the embryo obtain nourishment?

Why do crack addicted mothers have crack addicted babies? Oh, that temporary association I guess.

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Posted: 17 November 2008 04:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 42 ]  
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Way to skip the entire article.

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“There is undoubtedly an important secular debate to be had about the ethics of embryonic stem cell research and abortion…” -Me

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Posted: 17 November 2008 08:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 43 ]  
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Thank you for your non answers to my questions, a little more depth, meaning and content would have been appreciated and is required on this forum.  You will wonder why you are treated with a somewhat contemptuous attitude - as ye sow, so also etcetera.

And are you absolutely sure humans aren’t biological parasites given that we are well on the way to destroying our host?  Perhaps mother and baby are both parasites, and the host is Earth?  So now that would make you a pro-parasite.  How intellectually convenient to be pro-oneself.

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Posted: 18 November 2008 06:50 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 44 ]  
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Just like you skipped mine nu?

Thats OK, absolutists like you already have your mind made up. We know the kind.

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Posted: 18 November 2008 07:26 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 45 ]  
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All living things have a moral olbligation to not initiate force or fraud against other members of their species; When a lion kills a cub and rapes a lioness, that is wrong.

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“There is undoubtedly an important secular debate to be had about the ethics of embryonic stem cell research and abortion…” -Me

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