1 of 4
1
Muslim Women and Virginity
Posted: 12 June 2008 04:51 AM   [ Ignore ]  
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1639
Joined  2007-12-20

A June 11 NYT article:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/11/world/europe/11virgin.html?_r=1&ref=world&oref=slogin

“In my culture, not to be a virgin is to be dirt.”

“Right now virginity is more important to me than life.”

“They [parents] know you can pour blood on the sheets on the wedding night, so I have to have better proof [of virginity].”

Can the “moderate” strain of 21st century religions get any more obtuse than this?

Well, I suppose they can….....

 Signature 

“Every war is a war against children.”
Howard Zinn

Profile
 
 
Posted: 12 June 2008 05:01 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]  
Member
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  885
Joined  2008-01-23
lindajean - 12 June 2008 08:51 AM

A June 11 NYT article:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/11/world/europe/11virgin.html?_r=1&ref=world&oref=slogin

“In my culture, not to be a virgin is to be dirt.”

“Right now virginity is more important to me than life.”

“They [parents] know you can pour blood on the sheets on the wedding night, so I have to have better proof [of virginity].”

Can the “moderate” strain of 21st century religions get any more obtuse than this?

Well, I suppose they can….....

Perhaps in her culture, but not religion.

The Prophet (peace be upon him) married old women, divorced women, widowed women, thus proving that to not be a virgin is perfectly acceptable and one is not to treat a non-virgin ‘like dirt’.

From lecture given by Sheikh Habib Ali Jifri:

A Message to the Sisters

We need the Muslim woman to fulfil her role in her society. The society which does not allot the opportunity for the woman to do her part does not produce a stable environment for living. Muslim women, regardless of your circumstance, you have a mission.

If you are young, you inherit the position of A’isha, for she was quite young when she married the Messenger of Allah peace be upon him. If you are widow, you are our mother, as was Sawda who was a widow when she married the Prophet peace be upon him. If you are very old, so you are our mother, as Umm Salama was. If you are divorced, you are our mother: Hafsa. And if you were not a Muslim before and were Christian, you too are our mother: M?riyya. If you were Jewish and became Muslim, you are our mother: Safiyya. If you are a rich business woman, then you are our mother: Khad?ja. If you are a generous woman, you are or mother Zaynab.

In any circumstance you are in, the Prophet of Allah peace be upon him taught us to respect you because he took on wives of a great variety of difference, not for pleasure, or else he would have taken the most beautiful ones, but he was permitted to take this large number so that we can be taught that regardless of a woman’s circumstance, it is not permitted for her to be looked down upon, nor deprived of her rights, and that any degrading look towards a woman for any circumstance she is in childhood, old age, divorce is a degrading look to a wife of the Prophet peace and blessings be upon him.

When we discuss your role, we need it to be in accordance to this sublime middle way. Do not surrender yourselves to injustice. As men, we must acknowledge injustices in our homes done in the name of Islam, and Islam is innocent of them. But neither should we push them to what is termed ‘liberation,’ but is in reality depriving them of every sublime quality they could possess. It makes them a piece of merchandise that is marketed to sell a car or otherwise.

[ Edited: 12 June 2008 05:04 AM by Jack Shooter]
Profile
 
 
Posted: 12 June 2008 08:40 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]  
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  3208
Joined  2007-04-26

Faking It

Cultures have fetishized female virginity for millennia, and the medical procedure for recreating hymens won’t do away with that. But it’s great that those women can have the last laugh. If their husbands and parents could have dressed up the women’s hymens in bridal outfits, they would have done so, because that’s obviously all the husbands wanted. Those men should be careful what they wish for.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 12 June 2008 09:34 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]  
Member
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  885
Joined  2008-01-23
Carstonio - 12 June 2008 12:40 PM

Faking It

Cultures have fetishized female virginity for millennia, and the medical procedure for recreating hymens won’t do away with that. But it’s great that those women can have the last laugh. If their husbands and parents could have dressed up the women’s hymens in bridal outfits, they would have done so, because that’s obviously all the husbands wanted. Those men should be careful what they wish for.

Again, that is culture, not religion.  That is tradition, not truth.  That is inherited without questions, not learned through questions.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 12 June 2008 09:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]  
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1639
Joined  2007-12-20

“Jack Shooter”


Perhaps in her culture, but not religion.

The Prophet (peace be upon him) married old women, divorced women, widowed women, thus proving that to not be a virgin is perfectly acceptable and one is not to treat a non-virgin ‘like dirt’.

From lecture given by Sheikh Habib Ali Jifri:

A Message to the Sisters

We need the Muslim woman to fulfil her role in her society. The society which does not allot the opportunity for the woman to do her part does not produce a stable environment for living. Muslim women, regardless of your circumstance, you have a mission.

If you are young, you inherit the position of A’isha, for she was quite young when she married the Messenger of Allah peace be upon him. If you are widow, you are our mother, as was Sawda who was a widow when she married the Prophet peace be upon him. If you are very old, so you are our mother, as Umm Salama was. If you are divorced, you are our mother: Hafsa. And if you were not a Muslim before and were Christian, you too are our mother: M?riyya. If you were Jewish and became Muslim, you are our mother: Safiyya. If you are a rich business woman, then you are our mother: Khad?ja. If you are a generous woman, you are or mother Zaynab.

In any circumstance you are in, the Prophet of Allah peace be upon him taught us to respect you because he took on wives of a great variety of difference, not for pleasure, or else he would have taken the most beautiful ones, but he was permitted to take this large number so that we can be taught that regardless of a woman’s circumstance, it is not permitted for her to be looked down upon, nor deprived of her rights, and that any degrading look towards a woman for any circumstance she is in childhood, old age, divorce is a degrading look to a wife of the Prophet peace and blessings be upon him.

When we discuss your role, we need it to be in accordance to this sublime middle way. Do not surrender yourselves to injustice. As men, we must acknowledge injustices in our homes done in the name of Islam, and Islam is innocent of them. But neither should we push them to what is termed ‘liberation,’ but is in reality depriving them of every sublime quality they could possess. It makes them a piece of merchandise that is marketed to sell a car or otherwise.

 

I don’t read anything here in Mr. Jifri’s words that says not being a virgin when married is acceptable.

What does Islamic law and Koranic scripture say about non-virgins and marriage? Or perhaps there is already another thread discussing this you can refer me to.

 Signature 

“Every war is a war against children.”
Howard Zinn

Profile
 
 
Posted: 12 June 2008 10:46 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]  
Member
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  885
Joined  2008-01-23
lindajean - 12 June 2008 01:51 PM

“Jack Shooter”


Perhaps in her culture, but not religion.

The Prophet (peace be upon him) married old women, divorced women, widowed women, thus proving that to not be a virgin is perfectly acceptable and one is not to treat a non-virgin ‘like dirt’.

From lecture given by Sheikh Habib Ali Jifri:

A Message to the Sisters

We need the Muslim woman to fulfil her role in her society. The society which does not allot the opportunity for the woman to do her part does not produce a stable environment for living. Muslim women, regardless of your circumstance, you have a mission.

If you are young, you inherit the position of A’isha, for she was quite young when she married the Messenger of Allah peace be upon him. If you are widow, you are our mother, as was Sawda who was a widow when she married the Prophet peace be upon him. If you are very old, so you are our mother, as Umm Salama was. If you are divorced, you are our mother: Hafsa. And if you were not a Muslim before and were Christian, you too are our mother: M?riyya. If you were Jewish and became Muslim, you are our mother: Safiyya. If you are a rich business woman, then you are our mother: Khad?ja. If you are a generous woman, you are or mother Zaynab.

In any circumstance you are in, the Prophet of Allah peace be upon him taught us to respect you because he took on wives of a great variety of difference, not for pleasure, or else he would have taken the most beautiful ones, but he was permitted to take this large number so that we can be taught that regardless of a woman’s circumstance, it is not permitted for her to be looked down upon, nor deprived of her rights, and that any degrading look towards a woman for any circumstance she is in childhood, old age, divorce is a degrading look to a wife of the Prophet peace and blessings be upon him.

When we discuss your role, we need it to be in accordance to this sublime middle way. Do not surrender yourselves to injustice. As men, we must acknowledge injustices in our homes done in the name of Islam, and Islam is innocent of them. But neither should we push them to what is termed ‘liberation,’ but is in reality depriving them of every sublime quality they could possess. It makes them a piece of merchandise that is marketed to sell a car or otherwise.

 

I don’t read anything here in Mr. Jifri’s words that says not being a virgin when married is acceptable.

What does Islamic law and Koranic scripture say about non-virgins and marriage? Or perhaps there is already another thread discussing this you can refer me to.

Feel free to read it again, it’s not that hard to see.

If you are widow, you are our mother, as was Sawda who was a widow when she married the Prophet peace be upon him. If you are very old, so you are our mother, as Umm Salama was. If you are divorced, you are our mother: Hafsa.

In any circumstance you are in, the Prophet of Allah peace be upon him taught us to respect you because he took on wives of a great variety of difference, not for pleasure, or else he would have taken the most beautiful ones, but he was permitted to take this large number so that we can be taught that regardless of a woman’s circumstance, it is not permitted for her to be looked down upon, nor deprived of her rights, and that any degrading look towards a woman for any circumstance she is in childhood, old age, divorce is a degrading look to a wife of the Prophet peace and blessings be upon him.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 12 June 2008 11:14 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]  
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1639
Joined  2007-12-20

“Jack Shooter”

Feel free to read it again, it’s not that hard to see.

If you are widow, you are our mother, as was Sawda who was a widow when she married the Prophet peace be upon him. If you are very old, so you are our mother, as Umm Salama was. If you are divorced, you are our mother: Hafsa.

In any circumstance you are in, the Prophet of Allah peace be upon him taught us to respect you because he took on wives of a great variety of difference, not for pleasure, or else he would have taken the most beautiful ones, but he was permitted to take this large number so that we can be taught that regardless of a woman’s circumstance, it is not permitted for her to be looked down upon, nor deprived of her rights, and that any degrading look towards a woman for any circumstance she is in childhood, old age, divorce is a degrading look to a wife of the Prophet peace and blessings be upon him.


Sorry, I can’t seem to follow the line of reason here (if there is one.)

The Prophet took on many wives and we can deduce from this he respected women? 

And how is that relevant to the situation of whether an Islamic man will accept a non-virgin as a wife (or that her future in-laws will?)

You have not answered my question—what does the Koran and scriptures say about non-virgins being accepted in marriage?  Specifically, women who have never been married but are not virgins. You say this is a cultural attitude and not a religious one.  Then show me that your scriptures say marrying a non-virgin (who has never been previously married)  is acceptable.

 Signature 

“Every war is a war against children.”
Howard Zinn

Profile
 
 
Posted: 12 June 2008 12:41 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]  
Member
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  885
Joined  2008-01-23
lindajean - 12 June 2008 03:14 PM

“Jack Shooter”

Feel free to read it again, it’s not that hard to see.

If you are widow, you are our mother, as was Sawda who was a widow when she married the Prophet peace be upon him. If you are very old, so you are our mother, as Umm Salama was. If you are divorced, you are our mother: Hafsa.

In any circumstance you are in, the Prophet of Allah peace be upon him taught us to respect you because he took on wives of a great variety of difference, not for pleasure, or else he would have taken the most beautiful ones, but he was permitted to take this large number so that we can be taught that regardless of a woman’s circumstance, it is not permitted for her to be looked down upon, nor deprived of her rights, and that any degrading look towards a woman for any circumstance she is in childhood, old age, divorce is a degrading look to a wife of the Prophet peace and blessings be upon him.

Sorry, I can’t seem to follow the line of reason here (if there is one.)

The Prophet took on many wives and we can deduce from this he respected women? 

And how is that relevant to the situation of whether an Islamic man will accept a non-virgin as a wife (or that her future in-laws will?)

You have not answered my question—what does the Koran and scriptures say about non-virgins being accepted in marriage?  Specifically, women who have never been married but are not virgins. You say this is a cultural attitude and not a religious one.  Then show me that your scriptures say marrying a non-virgin (who has never been previously married)  is acceptable.

The Prophet (peace be upon him) is believed by Muslims to be the best example and the Qur’an itself states this about him:

“Ye have indeed in the Messenger of God a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in God and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of God. (Qur’an 33; 21)

And,

“Surely, you are on an exalted standard of character. [Qur’an 68:4]

Muslims derive attitudes, belief, and law from the actions of the Prophet (peace be upon him), and his marrying a widow and divorced women is a lesson, as Shaykh Habib Ali Jifri points out, that it is not acceptable for any man to look down on a women for any reason, including their status of virginity as the Prophet (peace be upon him) himself married non-virgins. 

In short, the Prophet (peace be upon him) married non-virgins, which is of course, a sign that he respected them -in fact, he respected all women as Shaykh Habib Ali Jifri explains - and this makes it acceptable for Muslim men to marry non-virgins and unacceptable for them to treat such women with disdain.  Now, there are some things that the Prophet (peace be upon him) did that were exclusively for himself and not required or acceptable for other Muslims, such as his praying throughout most of the night every night of his life after becoming a Prophet for example.

I hope this is sufficiently clear.

PS: If you studied the Prophet’s marriages with his wives, you would have no problems deducing that he respected women.  For most Muslims, this is a given even if they don’t act on this knowledge.

[ Edited: 12 June 2008 12:46 PM by Jack Shooter]
Profile
 
 
Posted: 13 June 2008 09:54 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]  
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1639
Joined  2007-12-20

Jack Shooter

Muslims derive attitudes, belief, and law from the actions of the Prophet (peace be upon him), and his marrying a widow and divorced women is a lesson, as Shaykh Habib Ali Jifri points out, that it is not acceptable for any man to look down on a women for any reason, including their status of virginity as the Prophet (peace be upon him) himself married non-virgins.

You are arguing a different issue than I am and your argument is irrelevant to the topic of Muslim women who have lost their virginity and have hyman replacements.

This discussion is not about men who marry non-virgins who have previouosly been married (widowed and divorced.)  This discussion is about women who have never been married and who “lost” their virginity outside marriage. 

In short, the Prophet (peace be upon him) married non-virgins, which is of course, a sign that he respected them -in fact, he respected all women as Shaykh Habib Ali Jifri explains - and this makes it acceptable for Muslim men to marry non-virgins and unacceptable for them to treat such women with disdain.

I am attempting to have a discussion with you pertaining to the article on this thread. This discussion centers on men marrying non-virgins who have never been married—-women who have had sex outside/before marriage.  Can you tell me your prophet married women who had sex when they were not married?  There is no taboo about divorce and widowed women.  They (presumably) had sex within marriage. So put this aside.  We are not discussing previously married women who are no longer virgins.  We are discussing women who have never been married and are non-virgins and the taboo and unacceptance of it in religion (Islam).

In Islam, as in most religions, sex before marriage is a sin, taboo.  That is why these women are getting the hyman replacement. You are ignoring this vital fact and dancing around the issue by saying your prophet married non-virgins (who had previously been married.)  That is not the issue, I suspect you understand and know it is not the issue, but you have no logical argument to offer to counter mine.

Now, there are some things that the Prophet (peace be upon him) did that were exclusively for himself and not required or acceptable for other Muslims, such as his praying throughout most of the night every night of his life after becoming a Prophet for example.


Once again, Jack,  irrelevant. this has NOTHING to do with the issue on this thread. You are prostelytizing.

I hope this is sufficiently clear.

The clarity is in how you are dodging the issue.

PS: If you studied the Prophet’s marriages with his wives, you would have no problems deducing that he respected women.  For most Muslims, this is a given even if they don’t act on this knowledge.

Once again, we can debate this but it is not the issue here.  This isn’t about respect.  It is about why muslim women are pressured to have hyman replacements before they get married.  You say it is 100% cultural and Islam has no role in this.  But you do not know this and have offered no evidence to suggest otherwise.  You have given me no information about your religion that says sex before marriage is OK.  I say your religion finds it unacceptable for women to have sex before marriage and for a woman to be a non-virgin before marriage and this belief is what pressures them to have the surgery.  It is based on fear that they will be rejected by the man and his family.

From the Koran:

“Successful indeed are the believers, who are reverent during their Contact prayers (Salat). And they
avoid vain talk. And they give their obligatory charity (Zakat). And THEY MAINTAIN THEIR
CHASTITY. Only with their spouses, or those who are rightfully theirs do they have sexual relations;
they are not to be blamed. Those who transgress these limits are the transgressors.” 23:1-7

“Tell the believing men that they shall subdue their eyes, and to maintain their chastity. This is purer
for them. God is fully Cognizant of everything they do.

And tell the believing women to subdue their eyes, and to maintain their chastity…........” 24:30-31

 

Let’s try a new approach. Tell me what happens to the “transgressors”.........

 

http://www.adnkronos.com/AKI/English/Security/?id=1.0.1612628060


http://www.afrol.com/News2001/nig001_sharia_girl.htm

 Signature 

“Every war is a war against children.”
Howard Zinn

Profile
 
 
Posted: 15 June 2008 12:31 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]  
Member
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  885
Joined  2008-01-23
lindajean - 13 June 2008 01:54 PM

Jack Shooter

Muslims derive attitudes, belief, and law from the actions of the Prophet (peace be upon him), and his marrying a widow and divorced women is a lesson, as Shaykh Habib Ali Jifri points out, that it is not acceptable for any man to look down on a women for any reason, including their status of virginity as the Prophet (peace be upon him) himself married non-virgins.

You are arguing a different issue than I am and your argument is irrelevant to the topic of Muslim women who have lost their virginity and have hyman replacements.

This discussion is not about men who marry non-virgins who have previouosly been married (widowed and divorced.)  This discussion is about women who have never been married and who “lost” their virginity outside marriage.

In short, the Prophet (peace be upon him) married non-virgins, which is of course, a sign that he respected them -in fact, he respected all women as Shaykh Habib Ali Jifri explains - and this makes it acceptable for Muslim men to marry non-virgins and unacceptable for them to treat such women with disdain.

I am attempting to have a discussion with you pertaining to the article on this thread. This discussion centers on men marrying non-virgins who have never been married—-women who have had sex outside/before marriage.  Can you tell me your prophet married women who had sex when they were not married?  There is no taboo about divorce and widowed women.  They (presumably) had sex within marriage. So put this aside.  We are not discussing previously married women who are no longer virgins.  We are discussing women who have never been married and are non-virgins and the taboo and unacceptance of it in religion (Islam).

In Islam, as in most religions, sex before marriage is a sin, taboo.  That is why these women are getting the hyman replacement. You are ignoring this vital fact and dancing around the issue by saying your prophet married non-virgins (who had previously been married.)  That is not the issue, I suspect you understand and know it is not the issue, but you have no logical argument to offer to counter mine.

Now, there are some things that the Prophet (peace be upon him) did that were exclusively for himself and not required or acceptable for other Muslims, such as his praying throughout most of the night every night of his life after becoming a Prophet for example.


Once again, Jack,  irrelevant. this has NOTHING to do with the issue on this thread. You are prostelytizing.

I hope this is sufficiently clear.

The clarity is in how you are dodging the issue.

PS: If you studied the Prophet’s marriages with his wives, you would have no problems deducing that he respected women.  For most Muslims, this is a given even if they don’t act on this knowledge.

Once again, we can debate this but it is not the issue here.  This isn’t about respect.  It is about why muslim women are pressured to have hyman replacements before they get married.  You say it is 100% cultural and Islam has no role in this.  But you do not know this and have offered no evidence to suggest otherwise.  You have given me no information about your religion that says sex before marriage is OK.  I say your religion finds it unacceptable for women to have sex before marriage and for a woman to be a non-virgin before marriage and this belief is what pressures them to have the surgery.  It is based on fear that they will be rejected by the man and his family.

From the Koran:

“Successful indeed are the believers, who are reverent during their Contact prayers (Salat). And they
avoid vain talk. And they give their obligatory charity (Zakat). And THEY MAINTAIN THEIR
CHASTITY. Only with their spouses, or those who are rightfully theirs do they have sexual relations;
they are not to be blamed. Those who transgress these limits are the transgressors.” 23:1-7

“Tell the believing men that they shall subdue their eyes, and to maintain their chastity. This is purer
for them. God is fully Cognizant of everything they do.

And tell the believing women to subdue their eyes, and to maintain their chastity…........” 24:30-31

 

Let’s try a new approach. Tell me what happens to the “transgressors”.........

 

http://www.adnkronos.com/AKI/English/Security/?id=1.0.1612628060


http://www.afrol.com/News2001/nig001_sharia_girl.htm

Of course it is not acceptable for people to have sex outside of marriage according to Islam.  That is a non-issue.  At the same time, if a man or woman sincerely repents from their sin, they are under no obligation to disclose this, in fact, they are prohibited from talking about their sin, and if one asks, they can simply avoid the question.  In other words, a man cannot ask a woman before getting married whether or not she had illicit sex before, and vice versa, as asking this itself is considered a sin according to Islamic law.

Likewise, adultry is prohibited in Islam, but if it occurs, the guilty party can sincerely repent and not tell anyone, including the spouse, or admit to the crime and be punished by death.  Incidentally, the only cases during the Prophet’s (peace be upon him) time in which the death penalty was implemented for individuals found guilty of adultrey was through such individual’s own admission, and the Prophet (peace be upon him) asked these individuals to reconsider whether or not they were sure they comitted the act as opposed to merely caressing and foreplay in order to avoid their death, but they insisted on being punished.

Thus, in short, of course fornication/adultrey is punishable in Islam, but people can repent to God when they commit these and avoid being punished and likewise, avoid having to disclose their sin.

As to the issue of looking for blood on the sheets after the first ocassion of sexual intercourse, it is sinful for a Muslim, whether male or female to be suspicious of another, let alone his/her spouse, and there may be potentially other reasons why there is no blood anyway.

Regardless, the real issue here is about trust not virginity.  Practicing Muslim men and women naturally assume their potential spouse, who is likely to be practing as well, is likewise chaste, and feel lied to or betrayed when this proves to not be the case.

Bottom line: Does Islam allow a man or woman to marry someone who had sex outside of marriage before?  Sure, but how would one come to know, because remember men and women are under no obligation to disclose their sins, in fact, they are not allowed to unless there are exceptional circumstances, and likewise, others are not allowed to ask people to disclose their sins.  If the truth is found out somehow, perhaps because a person self-disclosed for whatever reason, then there is still no reason not marry such a person if such a person has truly repented, although there is no problem if someone decided not to marry such a person for this reason either.

[ Edited: 15 June 2008 12:34 AM by Jack Shooter]
Profile
 
 
Posted: 16 June 2008 05:43 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]  
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  3208
Joined  2007-04-26
Jack Shooter - 12 June 2008 01:34 PM

Again, that is culture, not religion.  That is tradition, not truth.  That is inherited without questions, not learned through questions.

If a tradition’s adherents believe that the tradition is the will of gods, or that the tradition was created by a proxy for those gods, then the issue is religious. The issue would be cultural only if there were no such beliefs in the equation.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 16 June 2008 08:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]  
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1639
Joined  2007-12-20

Jack Shooter
Of course it is not acceptable for people to have sex outside of marriage according to Islam.  That is a non-issue.

I disagree.  The issue (pertaining to the article) is about pre-marital sex and the “price” a woman pays for relinquishing her virginity before marriage.

Bottom line: Does Islam allow a man or woman to marry someone who had sex outside of marriage before?  Sure, but how would one come to know, because remember men and women are under no obligation to disclose their sins, in fact, they are not allowed to unless there are exceptional circumstances, and likewise, others are not allowed to ask people to disclose their sins.  If the truth is found out somehow, perhaps because a person self-disclosed for whatever reason, then there is still no reason not marry such a person if such a person has truly repented, although there is no problem if someone decided not to marry such a person for this reason either.

In governments ruled under sharia law (or any other kind of religious law) you cannot separate culture from religion.  Culture is religiously based because such laws will mandate this to be true.

Whether your personal denomination of Islam would incite women to have their hymens surgically replaced or not is irrelevant to the article posted on this thread.  The fact is, women are doing such acts and those acts are based on religious belief about virginity.  While it might not be a wide spread practice in all of Islam (no one is saying it is) the fact that it is happening under the practice of Islam somewhere and that this practice is now occurring in a Western country (France) certainly makes it newsworthy and worth judgment. Just as not all Christians practice polygamy or have sex with minors does not belie the fact that there are those sects in TX and Utah that are practicing an extreme form of Mormonism who do.  And if those groups moved to Canada or Russia or France, they would continue to practice those acts unless there were ways to prohibit them from doing so (i.e. very strict laws that prosecute such acts.)  As a comparison, Mormons practicing polygamy and statutory rape (as one example)  is not a cultural practice.  It is based on obtuse and distorted religious beliefs just as the hymen-replacement beliefs are in the Islamic world.

 Signature 

“Every war is a war against children.”
Howard Zinn

Profile
 
 
Posted: 19 June 2008 07:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]  
Member
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  885
Joined  2008-01-23
lindajean - 16 June 2008 12:18 PM

Jack Shooter
Of course it is not acceptable for people to have sex outside of marriage according to Islam.  That is a non-issue.

I disagree.  The issue (pertaining to the article) is about pre-marital sex and the “price” a woman pays for relinquishing her virginity before marriage.

Bottom line: Does Islam allow a man or woman to marry someone who had sex outside of marriage before?  Sure, but how would one come to know, because remember men and women are under no obligation to disclose their sins, in fact, they are not allowed to unless there are exceptional circumstances, and likewise, others are not allowed to ask people to disclose their sins.  If the truth is found out somehow, perhaps because a person self-disclosed for whatever reason, then there is still no reason not marry such a person if such a person has truly repented, although there is no problem if someone decided not to marry such a person for this reason either.

In governments ruled under sharia law (or any other kind of religious law) you cannot separate culture from religion.  Culture is religiously based because such laws will mandate this to be true.

Whether your personal denomination of Islam would incite women to have their hymens surgically replaced or not is irrelevant to the article posted on this thread.  The fact is, women are doing such acts and those acts are based on religious belief about virginity.  While it might not be a wide spread practice in all of Islam (no one is saying it is) the fact that it is happening under the practice of Islam somewhere and that this practice is now occurring in a Western country (France) certainly makes it newsworthy and worth judgment. Just as not all Christians practice polygamy or have sex with minors does not belie the fact that there are those sects in TX and Utah that are practicing an extreme form of Mormonism who do.  And if those groups moved to Canada or Russia or France, they would continue to practice those acts unless there were ways to prohibit them from doing so (i.e. very strict laws that prosecute such acts.)  As a comparison, Mormons practicing polygamy and statutory rape (as one example)  is not a cultural practice.  It is based on obtuse and distorted religious beliefs just as the hymen-replacement beliefs are in the Islamic world.

I have already explained to you how sin is treated in Islam (i.e. through repentance or punishment).  The said surgery is not at all a prescribed treatment of the problem, even if it results from fear of punishment for sex outside of marriage.  Hence, find whatever other explanation you may (i.e. culture or people’s individual psychology), but not an Islamic one, as there is no justification for such surgery according to Islamic belief itself.  In fact, I suspect that many Muslim jurists would consider the surgery to be unacceptable insofar as it is meant to decieve someone, and one may end a marriage if it was contracted under false premises.  Again, there is NO JUSTIFICATION for such practice according to Islamic belief.  End of story.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 20 June 2008 09:03 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]  
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1639
Joined  2007-12-20
Jack Shooter - 19 June 2008 11:23 PM


I have already explained to you how sin is treated in Islam (i.e. through repentance or punishment).  The said surgery is not at all a prescribed treatment of the problem, even if it results from fear of punishment for sex outside of marriage.  Hence, find whatever other explanation you may (i.e. culture or people’s individual psychology), but not an Islamic one, as there is no justification for such surgery according to Islamic belief itself.  In fact, I suspect that many Muslim jurists would consider the surgery to be unacceptable insofar as it is meant to decieve someone, and one may end a marriage if it was contracted under false premises.  Again, there is NO JUSTIFICATION for such practice according to Islamic belief.  End of story.

And there is NO justification (by today’s Christian standards) for polygamists in TX to rape 14 year old girls.  But the religious belief is there and Christians can’t hide from it, just as you cannot hide from the Islamic belief that incites hymen replacement surgery or that incites men with PH.D’s to blow up buildings in western cities in the name of their loving and just God.

 Signature 

“Every war is a war against children.”
Howard Zinn

Profile
 
 
Posted: 22 June 2008 08:53 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]  
Member
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  885
Joined  2008-01-23
lindajean - 20 June 2008 01:03 PM
Jack Shooter - 19 June 2008 11:23 PM


I have already explained to you how sin is treated in Islam (i.e. through repentance or punishment).  The said surgery is not at all a prescribed treatment of the problem, even if it results from fear of punishment for sex outside of marriage.  Hence, find whatever other explanation you may (i.e. culture or people’s individual psychology), but not an Islamic one, as there is no justification for such surgery according to Islamic belief itself.  In fact, I suspect that many Muslim jurists would consider the surgery to be unacceptable insofar as it is meant to decieve someone, and one may end a marriage if it was contracted under false premises.  Again, there is NO JUSTIFICATION for such practice according to Islamic belief.  End of story.

And there is NO justification (by today’s Christian standards) for polygamists in TX to rape 14 year old girls.  But the religious belief is there and Christians can’t hide from it, just as you cannot hide from the Islamic belief that incites hymen replacement surgery or that incites men with PH.D’s to blow up buildings in western cities in the name of their loving and just God.

Fine.  By your own logic then, the next time anyone attributes the deaths caused by Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, and so forth to secular thought (and indeed it is a direct product of it), then you ought to nod in agreement if you are truthful.

By the way, I posted a critique of secularism by Imam Zaid Shakir on separate thread called “The Changing Face of Secularism”.  Did you read it?

Profile
 
 
Posted: 22 June 2008 09:00 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]  
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1243
Joined  2006-12-26
Jack Shooter - 22 June 2008 12:53 PM

By your own logic then, the next time anyone attributes the deaths caused by Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, and so forth to secular thought (and indeed it is a direct product of it

How is it a direct product of secular thought?

Profile
 
 
   
1 of 4
1
 
RSS 2.0     Atom Feed