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Literature About Sufism by N Keller
Posted: 12 June 2008 05:55 AM   [ Ignore ]  
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Literature About Sufism
 
The best book on Sufi metaphysics is the Koran, for as mentioned above, it is, in its own words, a “detailing of everything” (Koran 12:111) meaning not physical details that human beings can find out for themselves, but rather those things that no one can know, except by being in­formed of them by the Divine, matters that are precisely meta– or ‘beyond’ the physical. The Koran is higher reality itself, a single atom of which is worth a cosmos of human literature. The books of the Sufis but point up the proper manners of the spiritual traveller vis-à-vis this reality.

Books in English About the Path

The true literature of the tariqa has been discussed above on page 3, and what follows consists less of Sufi texts than maps of Sufi texts, though maps too have their worth. The following English titles can be listed before some conclud­ing words on the place of books in general in the spiritual path.

A.J. Arberry. The Koran Interpreted. New York: Macmil­lan Publishing Company, 1986.

(The Koran defies any attempt at imitation or translation; if the fallen giants of those who have tried are many, Arberry with his Koran Interpreted must number among the mightiest of the fallen.)

Mawlay al-‘Arabi al-Darqawi. The Darqawi Way. Tr. ‘A’isha ‘Abd al-Rahman al-Tarjumana. Norwich: Diwan Press, 1979.

(Letters to disciples by the great Moroccan sheikh whose name our tariqa bears. The translation conveys much of the hal or ‘spiritual state’ of the author. The present writer is expositing the Arabic original in a taped series of lessons in Amman called the “Darqawi Letters Interpreted,” to which this translation is a useful adjunct.)

Shahidullah Faridi. Inner Aspects of Faith. Karachi: Mah­fil-e Zawqia, 1406/1986.

(An English convert to Islam, the author when forty years old was authorized as a murshid by his own sheikh in the Chishti tariqa in Karachi, where he taught until the end of his life at sixty-three years of age in 1978. Though some points of practice and theory differ from the Shadhili path, there are many insightful passages, particularly on the general aspects of Sufism and its relation to Islam.)

Nuh Ha Mim Keller. Interpreter’s Log. Amman: 1992–.

(An unpublished manuscript of conversations with sheikhs and dervishes of the Shadhili tariqa in Syria and Jordan.)

———. Invocations of the Shadhili Order. Amman: Author, 1418/1998.

(An English translation with Arabic text of the author’s Awrad al-tariqa al-Shadhiliyya, (1417/1997) containing the main wirds of the tariqa.)

———. The Hadra. Amman: Author, 1420/1999.

(A treatise on the hadra or ‘public dhikr’ of the Shadhilis and other Qadiri orders in light of Islamic law and the spiritual path.)

Ibn ‘Ata’ Illah al-Iskandari. Wisdoms of Ibn ‘Ata’ Illah. Tr. Nuh Ha Mim Keller. Amman: Translator, 1999/1420.

(An English translation with Arabic text of al-Hikam al-‘Ata’iyya, the principal book of suluk or ‘spiritual travel’ in the Shadhili path.)

Ahmad ibn Naqib al-Misri. Reliance of the Traveller. Tr. Nuh Ha Mim Keller. Abu Dhabi, 1991. Revised Edition. Beltsville, Maryland: Amana Publications, 1999.

(The first half is an English translation of a classic Shafi‘i fiqh manual, while the second contains appendices (especially p, q, r, and s) needed by every traveller.)

‘Abd al-Karim al-Qushayri. Principles of Sufism. Tr. B.R. Von Schlegell. Berkeley: Mizan Press, 1990.

(A translation of important parts of a great book of the path.)

Jalal al-Din al-Rumi. The Mathnawi of Jalal al-Din al-Rumi. Tr. R.A. Nicholson. 3 vols. London 1926. Reprint. London: Luzac and Company, 1977.

(Of tariqas whose books have been successfully translated into English, Rumi’s is perhaps closest to the path of Abul Hasan al-Shadhili. His symbolic poetry is replete with lessons in the inward manners (adab) of the tariqa. Although the translation is sometimes tediously thorough, Sidi Muhammad ‘Isa Waley, who has translated poems from the same genre and language, says it is prefer­able to the contemporary popular translations which take liberties with accuracy in order to “New Age” the material.)

———. Discourses of Rumi. Tr. A.J. Arberry. London: John Murray, 1961.

(A good translation of an excellent collection of Sufi mudhakara or ‘teaching sessions.’ In some ways, more accessible than the Mathnawi because it is more explana­tive. As in other works above, the translator is sometimes forced to bluff when he cannot penetrate the author’s intent, resulting in English that merely mystifies.)

William C. Chittick. The Sufi Path of Love: The Spiritual Teachings of Rumi. Albany: State University of New York Press, 1983.)

(A workmanlike exposition of the metaphysics of Rumi’s spiritual path, it touches on points of the ontology of “experiential Sufism” for those who stand in front of that door, as explained in the following section “The Books of the Path.”)

‘Abd al-Khaliq al-Shabrawi. The Degrees of the Soul. Tr. Mostafa al-Badawi. London: Quilliam Press, 1997/1417.

(Many insights into the nature and growth of the ruh are inferable from the stages of the Khalwati way taught by the author. Sheikh al-Hashimi mentions in a teaching poem the same seven stages, although the means for progressing differ in the Shadhili tariqa, and the dhikrs the author has mentioned are not taken from books, but only from living teachers.)

Hasan Lutfi Shushud. Masters of Wisdom of Central Asia. Tr. Muhtar Holland. Moorcote (Yorkshire): Coombe Springs Press, 1983.

(A powerful English rendering of a hagiography of early Naqshbandi masters that contains much Sufism and useful lessons in both the form of the path and its content, its manners (adab) and experience (dhawq).)

Ibn al-Husayn al-Sulami. The Way of Sufi Chivalry. Tr. Tosun Bayrak al-Jerrahi. 1983. Reprint. Rochester ( Ver­mont): Inner Traditions International, 1991.

(An accurate translation of a valuable treatise on the altruism of the spiritual traveller.)

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Posted: 12 June 2008 05:56 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]  
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The Books of the Path

Among books by sheikhs of the path there are two complementary types, which interpenetrate and overlap, corresponding to two complementary endeavors in Sufism, the journey to Allah, and the journey in Allah.

(1) The first endeavor is the sphere of Tasawwuf ‘amali or ‘practical Sufism,’ which consists in perfecting the expres­sion of one’s love for the Divine by freeing oneself from blameworthy traits and acquiring praiseworthy ones. Its literary counterpart is found in many manuals of Sufism such as Imam Ghazali’s Ihya’ ‘ulum al-din [Reviving of the religion’s sciences], al-Suhrawardi’s ‘Awarif al-ma‘arif [Knowledges of the illuminates], the books of ‘Abd al-Qadr al-Jaylani, those of Imam al-Haddad, and so on. Their keynote is not literature, but rather tahqiq or ‘realization,’ meaning to persist in successive approximations of the hal or ‘noble quality as transient experience,’ until one be­comes characterized (muttasif) by it as maqam or ‘perma­nent attribute.’

Such books are translatable into English, and the book list above mainly confines itself to them, as practical Sufism is the basis for all the rest of the path. The benefits of reading them include learning one’s din, breaking bad habits, renewing one’s striving, and absorbing something of the spiritual ambition of those before us by reading about their works. Other than fiqh, however, one should not take daily wirds or other works from books, but rather from one’s sheikh. So although the list of books above is not exhaustive or even extensive, it provides more than enough reading, for most of us already know what we have to do.

(2) The second endeavor, the “journey in Allah,” is the sphere of Tasawwuf dhawqi or ‘experiential Sufism,’ the knowledge of which is its practice. Among the first prin­ciples of its literature is that authors confine themselves to what they have personally experienced. The real benefit from such books, aside from mere targhib or ‘encourage­ment’ to do what the authors have done, presupposes that the reader has experienced something of what is being described. This in turn is the fruit of practical Sufism; of leaving the wrong, of annihilations from the self at the hands of a murshid, of folding up the physical and spiritual worlds to know at first hand what is beyond them. In other words, books of experiential Sufism are only valuable after one’s heart has been opened.

But if this experience is a precondition for benefiting from such books, it in turn presupposes ‘ilm or ‘sacred learning,’ since students can only take what their sheikh has, and only if his kashf or ‘illuminatory perception’ corresponds to the traditional ontology (‘ilm al-tawhid) of the tenets of faith of orthodox Sunni Islam can he be depended upon to safely guide students to the Absolute. The path of true Sufism is extremely high, and the drop on either side is horrendous, stretching as it does into infinity, for which reason many sheikhs confine themselves to practical Sufism, and with every right, for they are respon­sible to Allah for the people who follow them. Our sheikh emphasizes that the ‘ilm al-tawhid of traditional Ash‘ari works of tenets of faith, with its knowledge of what is possible, necessary, and impossible of Allah Most High, is the metaphysics presupposed by high Sufism.

Little of the literature of experiential Sufism has been mentioned above except passages in works of practical Sufism, for the very good reason that there are few reasonable translations. Such works probably cannot be translated with complete fidelity without an ijaza or ‘formal authorization’ to speak in this discipline, for speak an interpreter must. But even given good translations, one cannot become Ibn al-‘Arabi by reading Ibn al-‘Arabi. The fewness of such books in English has led the present writer to produce tapes to serve in their stead until disciples’ strength in Arabic enables them to read the original.

Orientalist Studies of Sufism

Works on Sufism by Orientalists can be recommended against without apology or reservation, for any analysis that subtracts the reality of God from the spiritual phenomena it seeks to explain will be little better than its premises; meaning absolutely worthless. Their Creator describes them as “deaf, dumb, and blind, so they comprehend not” (Koran 2:171). Now, a sane person finding a group of deaf, dumb, blind, and uncomprehending people on his doorstep would not let them in to shampoo his rugs, let alone teach him his din. So how should someone with a spiritual path?

The distortional factors in Orientalists’ work range from basic incomprehension of the Divine, to ignorance of matters of fact, to unadmixed contempt for Allah and those He loves. For example, the verses by ‘Abd al-Rahman al-Majdhub (a sheikh of our initiatic chain) about avoiding the dangers of ostentation in the path: “Bury your secret in the earth, seventy fathoms down, / And leave all men in doubt [about you] until Resurrection Day” (Ibn ‘Ajiba: al-Futuhat al-Ilahiyya, 46), move French authority on Sufism Louis Massignon to say, “The enduring power of Islamic mysticism is not in the haughty, morose isolation in which Majdhub proclaims: “Bury your secret in the earth, seventy cubits down, / And let all creatures moan until the Last Judgement” (Essay on the Origins of the Technical Lan­guage of Islamic Mysticism, 11), reading yashku (complain, as of illness [“moan”]) for yashukku (doubt)—which joins between blindness to the whole point of the verses, deafness to their meter, and incomprehension of the eternal consequences of ghiba or ‘slander’ against one of the awliya’ or ‘friends of Allah.’ Fill the mind with this, and one will have to spend a long time shoveling it out, while others will have already arrived.

MCMXCIX © N. Keller

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Posted: 12 June 2008 08:22 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]  
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Books and more books.  And books written for Muslims who approach a path through their particular religion and upbringing.  Where is the simple recognition where two individuals from vastly different backgrounds meet as one?  There are those who attempt to exclude, and those who include.  And those who greet recognized strangers as “people like us.”

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Posted: 12 June 2008 08:32 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]  
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Hi Jack

Now concerning the sufis:

My Iranian Muslim friends tell me that the current theocratic Islamic Republic in Iran is arresting and imprisioning the sufis. When I ask why, they say that it is because the Islamic Republic sees the sufis as a threat which, in their insecurity and intolerance, cannot be allowed to exist.

You seem to be telling a different Islamic view of the sufis. Which is correct?

Stay Well
Wot

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Posted: 12 June 2008 09:31 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]  
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Wotansson - 12 June 2008 12:32 PM

Hi Jack

Now concerning the sufis:

My Iranian Muslim friends tell me that the current theocratic Islamic Republic in Iran is arresting and imprisioning the sufis. When I ask why, they say that it is because the Islamic Republic sees the sufis as a threat which, in their insecurity and intolerance, cannot be allowed to exist.

You seem to be telling a different Islamic view of the sufis. Which is correct?

Stay Well
Wot

I am not familiar enough about Shia Islam in Iran and current politics there to be able to speak to that.  I can only say that tassawuf or sufism is an integral part of orthodox sunni Islam, that there are different ‘tariqas’ or spiritual paths that occur right along side the four schools of legal thought.  Also, historically, the sufis have been behind struggles against oppression of various sorts, and so one commonly finds many ‘warrior saints’ in Islam.  In fact, the Prophet (peace be upon him), who serves as the greatest example, was in a sense a warrior saint.

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Posted: 12 June 2008 11:32 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]  
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Jack Shooter - 12 June 2008 01:31 PM
Wotansson - 12 June 2008 12:32 PM

Hi Jack

Now concerning the sufis:

My Iranian Muslim friends tell me that the current theocratic Islamic Republic in Iran is arresting and imprisioning the sufis. When I ask why, they say that it is because the Islamic Republic sees the sufis as a threat which, in their insecurity and intolerance, cannot be allowed to exist.

You seem to be telling a different Islamic view of the sufis. Which is correct?

Stay Well
Wot

I am not familiar enough about Shia Islam in Iran and current politics there to be able to speak to that.  I can only say that tassawuf or sufism is an integral part of orthodox sunni Islam, that there are different ‘tariqas’ or spiritual paths that occur right along side the four schools of legal thought.  Also, historically, the sufis have been behind struggles against oppression of various sorts, and so one commonly finds many ‘warrior saints’ in Islam.  In fact, the Prophet (peace be upon him), who serves as the greatest example, was in a sense a warrior saint.

But Jack, didn’t you say you would welcome living under an Islamic Republic? Don’t you think you should find out about this kind of thing so you would know what your new life might be like given the “current politics”? Perhaps the Iranian Islamic Republic is arresting the sufis since the sufis “struggle against oppression” We all know that the government does not tolerate any opposition. Further, I am told that the sufis are not viewed as Muslims at all.

Stay Well
Wot

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Posted: 12 June 2008 12:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]  
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Wotansson - 12 June 2008 03:32 PM
Jack Shooter - 12 June 2008 01:31 PM
Wotansson - 12 June 2008 12:32 PM

Hi Jack

Now concerning the sufis:

My Iranian Muslim friends tell me that the current theocratic Islamic Republic in Iran is arresting and imprisioning the sufis. When I ask why, they say that it is because the Islamic Republic sees the sufis as a threat which, in their insecurity and intolerance, cannot be allowed to exist.

You seem to be telling a different Islamic view of the sufis. Which is correct?

Stay Well
Wot

I am not familiar enough about Shia Islam in Iran and current politics there to be able to speak to that.  I can only say that tassawuf or sufism is an integral part of orthodox sunni Islam, that there are different ‘tariqas’ or spiritual paths that occur right along side the four schools of legal thought.  Also, historically, the sufis have been behind struggles against oppression of various sorts, and so one commonly finds many ‘warrior saints’ in Islam.  In fact, the Prophet (peace be upon him), who serves as the greatest example, was in a sense a warrior saint.

But Jack, didn’t you say you would welcome living under an Islamic Republic? Don’t you think you should find out about this kind of thing so you would know what your new life might be like given the “current politics”? Perhaps the Iranian Islamic Republic is arresting the sufis since the sufis “struggle against oppression” We all know that the government does not tolerate any opposition. Further, I am told that the sufis are not viewed as Muslims at all.

Stay Well
Wot

I would welcome living in an Islamic republic, but a true one, and in reality, many Western societies, minus a few things, are closer to reflecting an Islamic republic then what one finds in Muslim societies which are often full of racism, sexism, and so forth - all of which have nothing to do with Islam.

As for sufism, it is an essential part of Islam, and proof for it is found within the sources of Islamic law and practice (i.e. the Qur’an, hadith, consensus of scholars).  There may be a few who say otherwise, but they usually speak out of ignorance.  No major Muslim scholar would argue otherwise.

Please go here to learn more.

http://www.shadhilitariqa.com/site/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=3&Itemid=11

http://shadhilitariqa.com/site/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=7&Itemid=11

After reading it, feel free to ask me about what you don’t understand and I’ll do my best to answer.  Thanks.

[ Edited: 12 June 2008 12:22 PM by Jack Shooter]
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Posted: 13 June 2008 03:28 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]  
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Jack Shooter - 12 June 2008 04:19 PM
Wotansson - 12 June 2008 03:32 PM
Jack Shooter - 12 June 2008 01:31 PM
Wotansson - 12 June 2008 12:32 PM

Hi Jack

Now concerning the sufis:

My Iranian Muslim friends tell me that the current theocratic Islamic Republic in Iran is arresting and imprisioning the sufis. When I ask why, they say that it is because the Islamic Republic sees the sufis as a threat which, in their insecurity and intolerance, cannot be allowed to exist.

You seem to be telling a different Islamic view of the sufis. Which is correct?

Stay Well
Wot

I am not familiar enough about Shia Islam in Iran and current politics there to be able to speak to that.  I can only say that tassawuf or sufism is an integral part of orthodox sunni Islam, that there are different ‘tariqas’ or spiritual paths that occur right along side the four schools of legal thought.  Also, historically, the sufis have been behind struggles against oppression of various sorts, and so one commonly finds many ‘warrior saints’ in Islam.  In fact, the Prophet (peace be upon him), who serves as the greatest example, was in a sense a warrior saint.

But Jack, didn’t you say you would welcome living under an Islamic Republic? Don’t you think you should find out about this kind of thing so you would know what your new life might be like given the “current politics”? Perhaps the Iranian Islamic Republic is arresting the sufis since the sufis “struggle against oppression” We all know that the government does not tolerate any opposition. Further, I am told that the sufis are not viewed as Muslims at all.

Stay Well
Wot

I would welcome living in an Islamic republic, but a true one, and in reality, many Western societies, minus a few things, are closer to reflecting an Islamic republic then what one finds in Muslim societies which are often full of racism, sexism, and so forth - all of which have nothing to do with Islam.

As for sufism, it is an essential part of Islam, and proof for it is found within the sources of Islamic law and practice (i.e. the Qur’an, hadith, consensus of scholars).  There may be a few who say otherwise, but they usually speak out of ignorance.  No major Muslim scholar would argue otherwise.

Please go here to learn more.

http://www.shadhilitariqa.com/site/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=3&Itemid=11

http://shadhilitariqa.com/site/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=7&Itemid=11

After reading it, feel free to ask me about what you don’t understand and I’ll do my best to answer.  Thanks.

I suggest reading some of the works of Idries Shah.  After reading that you can ask me about what you don’t understand and I’ll do my best to answer.  I realize that his position is controversial (and probably heritical to some of your sources), but it is one of dynamic growth rather than static restriction to outdated forms.  I certainly understand that some orthodox sufi exponents insist that it is only valid within a strict Islamic context, so there can be all sorts of argument around the name, but anybody who engages in that kind of argument outside of an academic debate on external terms of classification is giving prima facia evidence that they are not a sufi but at best an aspirant to that station who has yet to learn the essence.  Unfortunately, there are many who confuse form with substance.

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Posted: 13 June 2008 05:35 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]  
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Jack Shooter - 12 June 2008 04:19 PM
Wotansson - 12 June 2008 03:32 PM
Jack Shooter - 12 June 2008 01:31 PM
Wotansson - 12 June 2008 12:32 PM

Hi Jack

Now concerning the sufis:

My Iranian Muslim friends tell me that the current theocratic Islamic Republic in Iran is arresting and imprisioning the sufis. When I ask why, they say that it is because the Islamic Republic sees the sufis as a threat which, in their insecurity and intolerance, cannot be allowed to exist.

You seem to be telling a different Islamic view of the sufis. Which is correct?

Stay Well
Wot

I am not familiar enough about Shia Islam in Iran and current politics there to be able to speak to that.  I can only say that tassawuf or sufism is an integral part of orthodox sunni Islam, that there are different ‘tariqas’ or spiritual paths that occur right along side the four schools of legal thought.  Also, historically, the sufis have been behind struggles against oppression of various sorts, and so one commonly finds many ‘warrior saints’ in Islam.  In fact, the Prophet (peace be upon him), who serves as the greatest example, was in a sense a warrior saint.

But Jack, didn’t you say you would welcome living under an Islamic Republic? Don’t you think you should find out about this kind of thing so you would know what your new life might be like given the “current politics”? Perhaps the Iranian Islamic Republic is arresting the sufis since the sufis “struggle against oppression” We all know that the government does not tolerate any opposition. Further, I am told that the sufis are not viewed as Muslims at all.

Stay Well
Wot

I would welcome living in an Islamic republic, but a true one, and in reality, many Western societies, minus a few things, are closer to reflecting an Islamic republic then what one finds in Muslim societies which are often full of racism, sexism, and so forth - all of which have nothing to do with Islam.

As for sufism, it is an essential part of Islam, and proof for it is found within the sources of Islamic law and practice (i.e. the Qur’an, hadith, consensus of scholars).  There may be a few who say otherwise, but they usually speak out of ignorance.  No major Muslim scholar would argue otherwise.

Please go here to learn more.

http://www.shadhilitariqa.com/site/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=3&Itemid=11

http://shadhilitariqa.com/site/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=7&Itemid=11

After reading it, feel free to ask me about what you don’t understand and I’ll do my best to answer.  Thanks.

Jack
I think you might want to inform the Iranian government that sufism is an “essential part of Islam, and proof for it is found within the sources of Islamic law and practice (i.e. the Qur’an, hadith, consensus of scholars).”  They haven’t gotten your message yet especially the supreme leader and the president.

I would welcome living in an Islamic republic, but a true one, and in reality, many Western societies, minus a few things, are closer to reflecting an Islamic republic then what one finds in Muslim societies which are often full of racism, sexism, and so forth - all of which have nothing to do with Islam.

Just where are these Western societies which (almost) reflect the Islamic republic? Please be specific. Location? Country? Links?

Stay Well

Wot

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Posted: 15 June 2008 12:40 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]  
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Wotansson - 13 June 2008 09:35 AM
Jack Shooter - 12 June 2008 04:19 PM
Wotansson - 12 June 2008 03:32 PM
Jack Shooter - 12 June 2008 01:31 PM
Wotansson - 12 June 2008 12:32 PM

Hi Jack

Now concerning the sufis:

My Iranian Muslim friends tell me that the current theocratic Islamic Republic in Iran is arresting and imprisioning the sufis. When I ask why, they say that it is because the Islamic Republic sees the sufis as a threat which, in their insecurity and intolerance, cannot be allowed to exist.

You seem to be telling a different Islamic view of the sufis. Which is correct?

Stay Well
Wot

I am not familiar enough about Shia Islam in Iran and current politics there to be able to speak to that.  I can only say that tassawuf or sufism is an integral part of orthodox sunni Islam, that there are different ‘tariqas’ or spiritual paths that occur right along side the four schools of legal thought.  Also, historically, the sufis have been behind struggles against oppression of various sorts, and so one commonly finds many ‘warrior saints’ in Islam.  In fact, the Prophet (peace be upon him), who serves as the greatest example, was in a sense a warrior saint.

But Jack, didn’t you say you would welcome living under an Islamic Republic? Don’t you think you should find out about this kind of thing so you would know what your new life might be like given the “current politics”? Perhaps the Iranian Islamic Republic is arresting the sufis since the sufis “struggle against oppression” We all know that the government does not tolerate any opposition. Further, I am told that the sufis are not viewed as Muslims at all.

Stay Well
Wot

I would welcome living in an Islamic republic, but a true one, and in reality, many Western societies, minus a few things, are closer to reflecting an Islamic republic then what one finds in Muslim societies which are often full of racism, sexism, and so forth - all of which have nothing to do with Islam.

As for sufism, it is an essential part of Islam, and proof for it is found within the sources of Islamic law and practice (i.e. the Qur’an, hadith, consensus of scholars).  There may be a few who say otherwise, but they usually speak out of ignorance.  No major Muslim scholar would argue otherwise.

Please go here to learn more.

http://www.shadhilitariqa.com/site/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=3&Itemid=11

http://shadhilitariqa.com/site/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=7&Itemid=11

After reading it, feel free to ask me about what you don’t understand and I’ll do my best to answer.  Thanks.

Jack
I think you might want to inform the Iranian government that sufism is an “essential part of Islam, and proof for it is found within the sources of Islamic law and practice (i.e. the Qur’an, hadith, consensus of scholars).”  They haven’t gotten your message yet especially the supreme leader and the president.

I would welcome living in an Islamic republic, but a true one, and in reality, many Western societies, minus a few things, are closer to reflecting an Islamic republic then what one finds in Muslim societies which are often full of racism, sexism, and so forth - all of which have nothing to do with Islam.

Just where are these Western societies which (almost) reflect the Islamic republic? Please be specific. Location? Country? Links?

Stay Well

Wot

Wot,

I should also have to explain it to the Saudi government, but then again, whoever said governments must necessarily be the authorities in religion?

Now, I don’t think you understand Islam’s principles or those operating in Western society well enough to know what they have in common with each other.  Perhaps the latter, but not Islam anyway.  I’ve referred you to many websites explaining the teachings of Islam, if you can understand them, you will have no problem with what I have proposed earlier about Western socities being very Islamic in many senses.

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Posted: 16 June 2008 10:05 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]  
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Jack said:

Wot,

I should also have to explain it to the Saudi government, but then again, whoever said governments must necessarily be the authorities in religion?

Now, I don’t think you understand Islam’s principles or those operating in Western society well enough to know what they have in common with each other.  Perhaps the latter, but not Islam anyway.  I’ve referred you to many websites explaining the teachings of Islam, if you can understand them, you will have no problem with what I have proposed earlier about Western socities being very Islamic in many senses.

But Jack, in the Islamic Republic of Iran, which is governed by Islamic law, one cannot run for the presidency without the approval of Supreme Leader, Sayyid Ali Khamenei. Now I strongly suspect, but cannot prove, that he ain’t approvin’ any Baptists, Mormons or Jews. here is his website:

http://www.leader.ir/

So clearly religion is the authority in government but you question that government is the authority in religion. I guess you might have a pointless point here.
I don’t think I have any problems understanding here. I think I understand all too well and it is you who refuses to understand that which is directly in front of your face.

Stay Well
Wot

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Posted: 19 June 2008 09:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]  
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Wotansson - 16 June 2008 02:05 PM

Jack said:

Wot,

I should also have to explain it to the Saudi government, but then again, whoever said governments must necessarily be the authorities in religion?

Now, I don’t think you understand Islam’s principles or those operating in Western society well enough to know what they have in common with each other.  Perhaps the latter, but not Islam anyway.  I’ve referred you to many websites explaining the teachings of Islam, if you can understand them, you will have no problem with what I have proposed earlier about Western socities being very Islamic in many senses.

But Jack, in the Islamic Republic of Iran, which is governed by Islamic law, one cannot run for the presidency without the approval of Supreme Leader, Sayyid Ali Khamenei. Now I strongly suspect, but cannot prove, that he ain’t approvin’ any Baptists, Mormons or Jews. here is his website:

http://www.leader.ir/

So clearly religion is the authority in government but you question that government is the authority in religion. I guess you might have a pointless point here.
I don’t think I have any problems understanding here. I think I understand all too well and it is you who refuses to understand that which is directly in front of your face.

Stay Well
Wot

Sure, whatever you say.  Take care.

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Posted: 20 June 2008 05:36 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]  
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Total Posts:  819
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Jack Shooter - 20 June 2008 01:13 AM
Wotansson - 16 June 2008 02:05 PM

Jack said:

Wot,

I should also have to explain it to the Saudi government, but then again, whoever said governments must necessarily be the authorities in religion?

Now, I don’t think you understand Islam’s principles or those operating in Western society well enough to know what they have in common with each other.  Perhaps the latter, but not Islam anyway.  I’ve referred you to many websites explaining the teachings of Islam, if you can understand them, you will have no problem with what I have proposed earlier about Western socities being very Islamic in many senses.

But Jack, in the Islamic Republic of Iran, which is governed by Islamic law, one cannot run for the presidency without the approval of Supreme Leader, Sayyid Ali Khamenei. Now I strongly suspect, but cannot prove, that he ain’t approvin’ any Baptists, Mormons or Jews. here is his website:

http://www.leader.ir/

So clearly religion is the authority in government but you question that government is the authority in religion. I guess you might have a pointless point here.
I don’t think I have any problems understanding here. I think I understand all too well and it is you who refuses to understand that which is directly in front of your face.

Stay Well
Wot

Sure, whatever you say.  Take care.


Jack

All your responses are being reduced down to ” whatever you (I) say”. You are on the right track now.

Stay Well
Wot

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Posted: 22 June 2008 08:59 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]  
Member
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Total Posts:  885
Joined  2008-01-23
Wotansson - 20 June 2008 09:36 AM
Jack Shooter - 20 June 2008 01:13 AM
Wotansson - 16 June 2008 02:05 PM

Jack said:

Wot,

I should also have to explain it to the Saudi government, but then again, whoever said governments must necessarily be the authorities in religion?

Now, I don’t think you understand Islam’s principles or those operating in Western society well enough to know what they have in common with each other.  Perhaps the latter, but not Islam anyway.  I’ve referred you to many websites explaining the teachings of Islam, if you can understand them, you will have no problem with what I have proposed earlier about Western socities being very Islamic in many senses.

But Jack, in the Islamic Republic of Iran, which is governed by Islamic law, one cannot run for the presidency without the approval of Supreme Leader, Sayyid Ali Khamenei. Now I strongly suspect, but cannot prove, that he ain’t approvin’ any Baptists, Mormons or Jews. here is his website:

http://www.leader.ir/

So clearly religion is the authority in government but you question that government is the authority in religion. I guess you might have a pointless point here.
I don’t think I have any problems understanding here. I think I understand all too well and it is you who refuses to understand that which is directly in front of your face.

Stay Well
Wot

Sure, whatever you say.  Take care.


Jack

All your responses are being reduced down to ” whatever you (I) say”. You are on the right track now.

Stay Well
Wot

Can’t be bothered with the same ol’ ignorance.  Been there done that.  Sorry, your a little late in the game.

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Posted: 22 June 2008 08:02 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]  
Member
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Total Posts:  819
Joined  2004-12-21
Jack Shooter - 22 June 2008 12:59 PM
Wotansson - 20 June 2008 09:36 AM
Jack Shooter - 20 June 2008 01:13 AM
Wotansson - 16 June 2008 02:05 PM

Jack said:

Wot,

I should also have to explain it to the Saudi government, but then again, whoever said governments must necessarily be the authorities in religion?

Now, I don’t think you understand Islam’s principles or those operating in Western society well enough to know what they have in common with each other.  Perhaps the latter, but not Islam anyway.  I’ve referred you to many websites explaining the teachings of Islam, if you can understand them, you will have no problem with what I have proposed earlier about Western socities being very Islamic in many senses.

But Jack, in the Islamic Republic of Iran, which is governed by Islamic law, one cannot run for the presidency without the approval of Supreme Leader, Sayyid Ali Khamenei. Now I strongly suspect, but cannot prove, that he ain’t approvin’ any Baptists, Mormons or Jews. here is his website:

http://www.leader.ir/

So clearly religion is the authority in government but you question that government is the authority in religion. I guess you might have a pointless point here.
I don’t think I have any problems understanding here. I think I understand all too well and it is you who refuses to understand that which is directly in front of your face.

Stay Well
Wot

Sure, whatever you say.  Take care.


Jack

All your responses are being reduced down to ” whatever you (I) say”. You are on the right track now.

Stay Well
Wot

Can’t be bothered with the same ol’ ignorance.  Been there done that.  Sorry, your a little late in the game.


Islam is the same ol’ religious ignorance. It is time for you to grow up and recognize it.

Stay Well
Wot

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Posted: 23 June 2008 05:40 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]  
Member
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  885
Joined  2008-01-23
Wotansson - 23 June 2008 12:02 AM
Jack Shooter - 22 June 2008 12:59 PM
Wotansson - 20 June 2008 09:36 AM
Jack Shooter - 20 June 2008 01:13 AM
Wotansson - 16 June 2008 02:05 PM

Jack said:

Wot,

I should also have to explain it to the Saudi government, but then again, whoever said governments must necessarily be the authorities in religion?

Now, I don’t think you understand Islam’s principles or those operating in Western society well enough to know what they have in common with each other.  Perhaps the latter, but not Islam anyway.  I’ve referred you to many websites explaining the teachings of Islam, if you can understand them, you will have no problem with what I have proposed earlier about Western socities being very Islamic in many senses.

But Jack, in the Islamic Republic of Iran, which is governed by Islamic law, one cannot run for the presidency without the approval of Supreme Leader, Sayyid Ali Khamenei. Now I strongly suspect, but cannot prove, that he ain’t approvin’ any Baptists, Mormons or Jews. here is his website:

http://www.leader.ir/

So clearly religion is the authority in government but you question that government is the authority in religion. I guess you might have a pointless point here.
I don’t think I have any problems understanding here. I think I understand all too well and it is you who refuses to understand that which is directly in front of your face.

Stay Well
Wot

Sure, whatever you say.  Take care.


Jack

All your responses are being reduced down to ” whatever you (I) say”. You are on the right track now.

Stay Well
Wot

Can’t be bothered with the same ol’ ignorance.  Been there done that.  Sorry, your a little late in the game.


Islam is the same ol’ religious ignorance. It is time for you to grow up and recognize it.

Stay Well
Wot

Yes, when I grow up, I will recognize it.  I will become enlightened as you are, and these other atheist old farts who think they know it all without actually learning anything.  Personally, I’d rather stay young and vibrant, at every age -Islam is the way for me.  And I hope, one day, before your on your death-bed, you recognize it is for you to.

“O you who believe! answer (the call of) God and His Messenger when he calls you to that which gives you life; and know that God intervenes between man and his heart, and that to Him you shall be gathered.” (Quran 8:24)

[ Edited: 23 June 2008 05:44 PM by Jack Shooter]
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