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Posted: 21 July 2008 12:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]  
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arildno - 21 July 2008 03:46 PM

You don’t seem to get it, burt.

Muslims are explicitly forbidden to make friends with infidels, unless they only SEEM to be friends, in the interests of Islam.
Those Muslims who consider themselves genuine friends of infidels are regarded as “one of them”, i.e, as apostates of Islam doomed for hell-fire.

From the Koran:

Have no unbelieving friends. Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them. 4:89

Life for life, eye for eye, nose for nose, ear for ear, and tooth for tooth. Non-Muslims are wrong doers. 5:45

Muslims that make friends with disbelievers will face a doom prepared for them by Allah. 5:80

Fight disbelievers who are near you, and let them see the harshness in you. 9:123

Smite the necks of the disbelievers whenever you fight against them. Those who die fighting for Allah will be rewarded. 47:4

Those with Muhammad are ruthless toward disbelievers and merciful toward themselves. 48:29

The good works of disbelievers are all in vain. They will go to hell anyway. 18:104-105

 

....do you need more to get the point?


Stay Well
Wot

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Posted: 21 July 2008 12:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]  
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I would like to insert a warning. All of the major conflicts in the 20th century were fueled by ethnic tension during times of economic and/or political change. Economic and political swings are inevitable. Bigotry seems to be the one cog that may be removed from this morbid machine IF people can be empathetic and objective. When humans start thinking that another group of humans is somehow inferior, a license for atrocities is issued. I am not suggesting that any country grant special favors to any group. I am just warning that the spread of hatred has historically had dire consequences.

I think the Koran and the Bible and the Torah are full of nonsense. Fight the nonsense without demonizing groups of people. Read history and tell me if I am wrong.

[ Edited: 21 July 2008 12:28 PM by Beam]
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Real honesty is accepting the theories that best explain the actual data even if those explanations contradict our cherished beliefs.-Scotty

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Posted: 21 July 2008 04:29 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]  
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Wotansson - 21 July 2008 04:12 PM
arildno - 21 July 2008 03:46 PM

You don’t seem to get it, burt.

Muslims are explicitly forbidden to make friends with infidels, unless they only SEEM to be friends, in the interests of Islam.
Those Muslims who consider themselves genuine friends of infidels are regarded as “one of them”, i.e, as apostates of Islam doomed for hell-fire.

From the Koran:

Have no unbelieving friends. Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them. 4:89

Life for life, eye for eye, nose for nose, ear for ear, and tooth for tooth. Non-Muslims are wrong doers. 5:45

Muslims that make friends with disbelievers will face a doom prepared for them by Allah. 5:80

Fight disbelievers who are near you, and let them see the harshness in you. 9:123

Smite the necks of the disbelievers whenever you fight against them. Those who die fighting for Allah will be rewarded. 47:4

Those with Muhammad are ruthless toward disbelievers and merciful toward themselves. 48:29

The good works of disbelievers are all in vain. They will go to hell anyway. 18:104-105

 

....do you need more to get the point?


Stay Well
Wot

And you could quote related passages from the bible (OT) but that doesn’t mean that Jews or Christians take them literally today.  As I see it, the problem with your views of this is that you insist that all members of any given religion must believe the complete and literal interpretation of their sacred texts, or they are not true members of that religion.  No metaphorical interpretations allowed.  You then use this over application of formal logic to dialectically bash all members of the religion: either they are fanatical extremists or they are not being true to their religion.  That puts you in the same boat as the religious fanatics who insist that only the strict literal interpretation of texts is allowed.

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Posted: 21 July 2008 08:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]  
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burt - 21 July 2008 08:29 PM
Wotansson - 21 July 2008 04:12 PM
arildno - 21 July 2008 03:46 PM

You don’t seem to get it, burt.

Muslims are explicitly forbidden to make friends with infidels, unless they only SEEM to be friends, in the interests of Islam.
Those Muslims who consider themselves genuine friends of infidels are regarded as “one of them”, i.e, as apostates of Islam doomed for hell-fire.

From the Koran:

Have no unbelieving friends. Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them. 4:89

Life for life, eye for eye, nose for nose, ear for ear, and tooth for tooth. Non-Muslims are wrong doers. 5:45

Muslims that make friends with disbelievers will face a doom prepared for them by Allah. 5:80

Fight disbelievers who are near you, and let them see the harshness in you. 9:123

Smite the necks of the disbelievers whenever you fight against them. Those who die fighting for Allah will be rewarded. 47:4

Those with Muhammad are ruthless toward disbelievers and merciful toward themselves. 48:29

The good works of disbelievers are all in vain. They will go to hell anyway. 18:104-105

 

....do you need more to get the point?


Stay Well
Wot

And you could quote related passages from the bible (OT) but that doesn’t mean that Jews or Christians take them literally today.  As I see it, the problem with your views of this is that you insist that all members of any given religion must believe the complete and literal interpretation of their sacred texts, or they are not true members of that religion.  No metaphorical interpretations allowed.  You then use this over application of formal logic to dialectically bash all members of the religion: either they are fanatical extremists or they are not being true to their religion.  That puts you in the same boat as the religious fanatics who insist that only the strict literal interpretation of texts is allowed.

Well actually in my recollections of OT/NT readings and fundamental upbringing, I do not find vigorous admonitions against infidels that are found in the Koran. Certainly one can find ample examples of violence in the OT which are much criticized, including by myself.
One cannot deny that in current times, Islam is the leader in religious violence which is widely practiced and advocated by the recognized leaders. If you are trying to portray Islam as a tolerant faith, I think you are obviously mistaken. If you are suggesting that Muslims should ignore the teachings of the Koran, then of what value is Islam at all? How does the follower distinquish between between the tenets that are to be followed and those to be ignored? Perhaps it is just common sense but then again, of what value is the Koran and Islam to humanity? I advocate the abandonment of religion so you place me in a boat where I don’t belong.


Stay Well
Wot

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Posted: 22 July 2008 09:37 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]  
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burt - 21 July 2008 08:29 PM
Wotansson - 21 July 2008 04:12 PM
arildno - 21 July 2008 03:46 PM

You don’t seem to get it, burt.

Muslims are explicitly forbidden to make friends with infidels, unless they only SEEM to be friends, in the interests of Islam.
Those Muslims who consider themselves genuine friends of infidels are regarded as “one of them”, i.e, as apostates of Islam doomed for hell-fire.

From the Koran:

Have no unbelieving friends. Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them. 4:89

Life for life, eye for eye, nose for nose, ear for ear, and tooth for tooth. Non-Muslims are wrong doers. 5:45

Muslims that make friends with disbelievers will face a doom prepared for them by Allah. 5:80

Fight disbelievers who are near you, and let them see the harshness in you. 9:123

Smite the necks of the disbelievers whenever you fight against them. Those who die fighting for Allah will be rewarded. 47:4

Those with Muhammad are ruthless toward disbelievers and merciful toward themselves. 48:29

The good works of disbelievers are all in vain. They will go to hell anyway. 18:104-105

 

....do you need more to get the point?


Stay Well
Wot

And you could quote related passages from the bible (OT) but that doesn’t mean that Jews or Christians take them literally today.

1. Find those quotations. As yet, you have made mere empty assertions.
2. At various times, ALL idiotic assertions in their holy books have been strenuously believed in by Christians and Jews, and they and their priests howled and protested loudly at secularists trying to make them ignore those assertions.
That is, the Enlightenment process was a battle in which Christians were dragged, AGAINST THEIR WILL, towards a more rational perspective on their Holy Books.

No such Enlightenment process has worked within the Muslim communities, and prima facie, therefore, we should assume that the rank-and-file Muslim actually DO believe in the Quranic nonsense to a very large extent.

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Posted: 22 July 2008 10:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]  
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Wotansson - 22 July 2008 12:09 AM
burt - 21 July 2008 08:29 PM
Wotansson - 21 July 2008 04:12 PM
arildno - 21 July 2008 03:46 PM

You don’t seem to get it, burt.

Muslims are explicitly forbidden to make friends with infidels, unless they only SEEM to be friends, in the interests of Islam.
Those Muslims who consider themselves genuine friends of infidels are regarded as “one of them”, i.e, as apostates of Islam doomed for hell-fire.

From the Koran:

Have no unbelieving friends. Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them. 4:89

Life for life, eye for eye, nose for nose, ear for ear, and tooth for tooth. Non-Muslims are wrong doers. 5:45

Muslims that make friends with disbelievers will face a doom prepared for them by Allah. 5:80

Fight disbelievers who are near you, and let them see the harshness in you. 9:123

Smite the necks of the disbelievers whenever you fight against them. Those who die fighting for Allah will be rewarded. 47:4

Those with Muhammad are ruthless toward disbelievers and merciful toward themselves. 48:29

The good works of disbelievers are all in vain. They will go to hell anyway. 18:104-105

 

....do you need more to get the point?


Stay Well
Wot

And you could quote related passages from the bible (OT) but that doesn’t mean that Jews or Christians take them literally today.  As I see it, the problem with your views of this is that you insist that all members of any given religion must believe the complete and literal interpretation of their sacred texts, or they are not true members of that religion.  No metaphorical interpretations allowed.  You then use this over application of formal logic to dialectically bash all members of the religion: either they are fanatical extremists or they are not being true to their religion.  That puts you in the same boat as the religious fanatics who insist that only the strict literal interpretation of texts is allowed.

Well actually in my recollections of OT/NT readings and fundamental upbringing, I do not find vigorous admonitions against infidels that are found in the Koran. Certainly one can find ample examples of violence in the OT which are much criticized, including by myself.
One cannot deny that in current times, Islam is the leader in religious violence which is widely practiced and advocated by the recognized leaders. If you are trying to portray Islam as a tolerant faith, I think you are obviously mistaken. If you are suggesting that Muslims should ignore the teachings of the Koran, then of what value is Islam at all? How does the follower distinquish between between the tenets that are to be followed and those to be ignored? Perhaps it is just common sense but then again, of what value is the Koran and Islam to humanity? I advocate the abandonment of religion so you place me in a boat where I don’t belong.


Stay Well
Wot

We’re in the same boat (or, perhaps swimming) as far as not following a religion, where we might differ is that I think some people prefer, as a matter of choice, to adhere to one
or another religion.  From my perspective, the ideal world would have all children educated in a way that when they reached responsible age they could chose their own path, religious or otherwise, without social or parental pressure playing a role (raving idealist that I am).  In that sort of world, religions would have to behave.  I agree that today, the most violent aspects of religion show up more often in Islam, but that is more of a cultural thing I think and is one of the main problems that has to be dealt with within the Islamic world—if it is to survive.

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Posted: 22 July 2008 12:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]  
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burt - 22 July 2008 02:18 PM
Wotansson - 22 July 2008 12:09 AM
burt - 21 July 2008 08:29 PM
Wotansson - 21 July 2008 04:12 PM
arildno - 21 July 2008 03:46 PM

You don’t seem to get it, burt.

Muslims are explicitly forbidden to make friends with infidels, unless they only SEEM to be friends, in the interests of Islam.
Those Muslims who consider themselves genuine friends of infidels are regarded as “one of them”, i.e, as apostates of Islam doomed for hell-fire.

From the Koran:

Have no unbelieving friends. Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them. 4:89

Life for life, eye for eye, nose for nose, ear for ear, and tooth for tooth. Non-Muslims are wrong doers. 5:45

Muslims that make friends with disbelievers will face a doom prepared for them by Allah. 5:80

Fight disbelievers who are near you, and let them see the harshness in you. 9:123

Smite the necks of the disbelievers whenever you fight against them. Those who die fighting for Allah will be rewarded. 47:4

Those with Muhammad are ruthless toward disbelievers and merciful toward themselves. 48:29

The good works of disbelievers are all in vain. They will go to hell anyway. 18:104-105

 

....do you need more to get the point?


Stay Well
Wot

And you could quote related passages from the bible (OT) but that doesn’t mean that Jews or Christians take them literally today.  As I see it, the problem with your views of this is that you insist that all members of any given religion must believe the complete and literal interpretation of their sacred texts, or they are not true members of that religion.  No metaphorical interpretations allowed.  You then use this over application of formal logic to dialectically bash all members of the religion: either they are fanatical extremists or they are not being true to their religion.  That puts you in the same boat as the religious fanatics who insist that only the strict literal interpretation of texts is allowed.

Well actually in my recollections of OT/NT readings and fundamental upbringing, I do not find vigorous admonitions against infidels that are found in the Koran. Certainly one can find ample examples of violence in the OT which are much criticized, including by myself.
One cannot deny that in current times, Islam is the leader in religious violence which is widely practiced and advocated by the recognized leaders. If you are trying to portray Islam as a tolerant faith, I think you are obviously mistaken. If you are suggesting that Muslims should ignore the teachings of the Koran, then of what value is Islam at all? How does the follower distinquish between between the tenets that are to be followed and those to be ignored? Perhaps it is just common sense but then again, of what value is the Koran and Islam to humanity? I advocate the abandonment of religion so you place me in a boat where I don’t belong.


Stay Well
Wot

We’re in the same boat (or, perhaps swimming) as far as not following a religion, where we might differ is that I think some people prefer, as a matter of choice, to adhere to one
or another religion.  From my perspective, the ideal world would have all children educated in a way that when they reached responsible age they could chose their own path, religious or otherwise, without social or parental pressure playing a role (raving idealist that I am).  In that sort of world, religions would have to behave.  I agree that today, the most violent aspects of religion show up more often in Islam, but that is more of a cultural thing I think and is one of the main problems that has to be dealt with within the Islamic world—if it is to survive.

Lets those who so choose, adhere to whatever suits them. But the religious refuse to accept the two rules; don’t impose it on me and do me no harm.
You are not a raving idealist. Just go do it. We had that discussion before.
Dealt with within Islam? Did you really say that? Oh no - you did. You think Islam is uniform and capable of doing that? You talk like Islam is confined to regions where they can just go work it out, like the lions in the cage at the zoo. Open your eyes and ears my friend. Islam is in your face and at your back door. Don’t be fearful - be firm in the conviction that it must conform to the rationality of the secular world. Give no quarter.

Stay Well
Wot

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Posted: 22 July 2008 12:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]  
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Wotansson - 22 July 2008 04:07 PM
burt - 22 July 2008 02:18 PM
Wotansson - 22 July 2008 12:09 AM
burt - 21 July 2008 08:29 PM
Wotansson - 21 July 2008 04:12 PM
arildno - 21 July 2008 03:46 PM

You don’t seem to get it, burt.

Muslims are explicitly forbidden to make friends with infidels, unless they only SEEM to be friends, in the interests of Islam.
Those Muslims who consider themselves genuine friends of infidels are regarded as “one of them”, i.e, as apostates of Islam doomed for hell-fire.

From the Koran:

Have no unbelieving friends. Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them. 4:89

Life for life, eye for eye, nose for nose, ear for ear, and tooth for tooth. Non-Muslims are wrong doers. 5:45

Muslims that make friends with disbelievers will face a doom prepared for them by Allah. 5:80

Fight disbelievers who are near you, and let them see the harshness in you. 9:123

Smite the necks of the disbelievers whenever you fight against them. Those who die fighting for Allah will be rewarded. 47:4

Those with Muhammad are ruthless toward disbelievers and merciful toward themselves. 48:29

The good works of disbelievers are all in vain. They will go to hell anyway. 18:104-105

 

....do you need more to get the point?


Stay Well
Wot

And you could quote related passages from the bible (OT) but that doesn’t mean that Jews or Christians take them literally today.  As I see it, the problem with your views of this is that you insist that all members of any given religion must believe the complete and literal interpretation of their sacred texts, or they are not true members of that religion.  No metaphorical interpretations allowed.  You then use this over application of formal logic to dialectically bash all members of the religion: either they are fanatical extremists or they are not being true to their religion.  That puts you in the same boat as the religious fanatics who insist that only the strict literal interpretation of texts is allowed.

Well actually in my recollections of OT/NT readings and fundamental upbringing, I do not find vigorous admonitions against infidels that are found in the Koran. Certainly one can find ample examples of violence in the OT which are much criticized, including by myself.
One cannot deny that in current times, Islam is the leader in religious violence which is widely practiced and advocated by the recognized leaders. If you are trying to portray Islam as a tolerant faith, I think you are obviously mistaken. If you are suggesting that Muslims should ignore the teachings of the Koran, then of what value is Islam at all? How does the follower distinquish between between the tenets that are to be followed and those to be ignored? Perhaps it is just common sense but then again, of what value is the Koran and Islam to humanity? I advocate the abandonment of religion so you place me in a boat where I don’t belong.


Stay Well
Wot

We’re in the same boat (or, perhaps swimming) as far as not following a religion, where we might differ is that I think some people prefer, as a matter of choice, to adhere to one
or another religion.  From my perspective, the ideal world would have all children educated in a way that when they reached responsible age they could chose their own path, religious or otherwise, without social or parental pressure playing a role (raving idealist that I am).  In that sort of world, religions would have to behave.  I agree that today, the most violent aspects of religion show up more often in Islam, but that is more of a cultural thing I think and is one of the main problems that has to be dealt with within the Islamic world—if it is to survive.

Lets those who so choose, adhere to whatever suits them. But the religious refuse to accept the two rules; don’t impose it on me and do me no harm.
You are not a raving idealist. Just go do it. We had that discussion before.
Dealt with within Islam? Did you really say that? Oh no - you did. You think Islam is uniform and capable of doing that? You talk like Islam is confined to regions where they can just go work it out, like the lions in the cage at the zoo. Open your eyes and ears my friend. Islam is in your face and at your back door. Don’t be fearful - be firm in the conviction that it must conform to the rationality of the secular world. Give no quarter.

Stay Well
Wot


Try these:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLgeMo0XE7k&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evwB7YYVgIo&feature=related


Especially you burt.

Stay Well
Wot

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Posted: 22 July 2008 03:47 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]  
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Just an addendum to Wotansson’s post:
It is positively IMMORAL to let large swathes of human beings be the prey of the evil ideology of Islam, just because they were so unfortunate to be born within that system.
That Muslims are victims of their false, evil beliefs as much as they represent a danger due to having those beliefs, is no contradiction.

Whoever said that a victim cannot be an aggressor?

However, the fact that Muslims are, at present, the main victims of Islam is politically an irrelevant issue. First, the danger they represent must be eliminated, and only then is it time to heal their own damaged minds.

This is entirely analogous to that on good evidence, most child molesters were molested themselves. First, they must be neutralized as a danger, then we can help them out.
To refrain from neutralizing them as aggressors (i.e, let them carry on) because they are victims “deserving” our pity, is a deeply immoral strategy.

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Posted: 23 July 2008 01:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]  
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arildno - 22 July 2008 07:47 PM

Just an addendum to Wotansson’s post:
It is positively IMMORAL to let large swathes of human beings be the prey of the evil ideology of Islam, just because they were so unfortunate to be born within that system.
That Muslims are victims of their false, evil beliefs as much as they represent a danger due to having those beliefs, is no contradiction.

Whoever said that a victim cannot be an aggressor?

However, the fact that Muslims are, at present, the main victims of Islam is politically an irrelevant issue. First, the danger they represent must be eliminated, and only then is it time to heal their own damaged minds.

This is entirely analogous to that on good evidence, most child molesters were molested themselves. First, they must be neutralized as a danger, then we can help them out.
To refrain from neutralizing them as aggressors (i.e, let them carry on) because they are victims “deserving” our pity, is a deeply immoral strategy.

arildno, your honesty, integrity and bold brilliance are nothing short of genius. Same goes for you Wot.

burt,  I know you love all of your fellow human beings, but, as delusions go, islam has gone far beyond its usefulness and if you honestly care about your progeny, the rest of humanity,  and your friends enslaved by this dark, “after-life”-only affirming religion, you need do more to wake them up to the reality of their enslavement. You remind me of the white slave-owning master of yore who convinced himself and his slaves that they were better off as slaves than they would be if they were free.

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Posted: 23 July 2008 11:53 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]  
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Wotansson - 22 July 2008 04:07 PM


We’re in the same boat (or, perhaps swimming) as far as not following a religion, where we might differ is that I think some people prefer, as a matter of choice, to adhere to one
or another religion.  From my perspective, the ideal world would have all children educated in a way that when they reached responsible age they could chose their own path, religious or otherwise, without social or parental pressure playing a role (raving idealist that I am).  In that sort of world, religions would have to behave.  I agree that today, the most violent aspects of religion show up more often in Islam, but that is more of a cultural thing I think and is one of the main problems that has to be dealt with within the Islamic world—if it is to survive.

Lets those who so choose, adhere to whatever suits them. But the religious refuse to accept the two rules; don’t impose it on me and do me no harm.
You are not a raving idealist. Just go do it. We had that discussion before.
Dealt with within Islam? Did you really say that? Oh no - you did. You think Islam is uniform and capable of doing that? You talk like Islam is confined to regions where they can just go work it out, like the lions in the cage at the zoo. Open your eyes and ears my friend. Islam is in your face and at your back door. Don’t be fearful - be firm in the conviction that it must conform to the rationality of the secular world. Give no quarter.

Stay Well
Wot

Well, you ought to read some of the letters I write to local newspapers (my university president once said to me in an incredulous voice: “You’re attacking the Pope???” but I have tenure so I can do what I want smile )  As I said, we all do what we can.  Not being a Muslim, I can’t do much from within, but I do make my views known.  You can be the bad cop, I prefer the role of good cop wink .  One thing I know, religious fundamentalism tends to die out, or at least get reduced to an irritation, with economic prosperity.  The alternative to the hard work of helping the Middle Eastern countries develop is to just build a wall around the entire area, and that isn’t working too well for the Israelis (maybe because in walling the Arabs out they’re walling themselves in).  I suspect that in a really secular world (where religions accepted the conditions: don’t impose, do no harm) religions would flourish.

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Posted: 23 July 2008 12:02 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 42 ]  
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isocratic infidel - 23 July 2008 05:51 AM

burt,  I know you love all of your fellow human beings, but, as delusions go, islam has gone far beyond its usefulness and if you honestly care about your progeny, the rest of humanity,  and your friends enslaved by this dark, “after-life”-only affirming religion, you need do more to wake them up to the reality of their enslavement. You remind me of the white slave-owning master of yore who convinced himself and his slaves that they were better off as slaves than they would be if they were free.

Check out your beliefs and hidden assumptions that lead you to this assessment.  What is the logic of the analogy to a slave owner?  I don’t “love” all of my fellow human beings, I don’t know them all, and of the small percentage that I do know, I dislike some of them and am politely neutral towards others. I do respect people in general as human beings, but that is just a basic instinct I was taught as a kid.  It doesn’t get in the way of self-defense: “Your enemy is never a villain in his own eyes.  Remember this.  It gives you a chance to make him your friend.  If not, you can kill him quickly and without hatred.” Lazarus Long.  Not that I’m out to do anybody in….

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Posted: 23 July 2008 01:47 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 43 ]  
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burt - 23 July 2008 03:53 PM
Wotansson - 22 July 2008 04:07 PM


We’re in the same boat (or, perhaps swimming) as far as not following a religion, where we might differ is that I think some people prefer, as a matter of choice, to adhere to one
or another religion.  From my perspective, the ideal world would have all children educated in a way that when they reached responsible age they could chose their own path, religious or otherwise, without social or parental pressure playing a role (raving idealist that I am).  In that sort of world, religions would have to behave.  I agree that today, the most violent aspects of religion show up more often in Islam, but that is more of a cultural thing I think and is one of the main problems that has to be dealt with within the Islamic world—if it is to survive.

Lets those who so choose, adhere to whatever suits them. But the religious refuse to accept the two rules; don’t impose it on me and do me no harm.
You are not a raving idealist. Just go do it. We had that discussion before.
Dealt with within Islam? Did you really say that? Oh no - you did. You think Islam is uniform and capable of doing that? You talk like Islam is confined to regions where they can just go work it out, like the lions in the cage at the zoo. Open your eyes and ears my friend. Islam is in your face and at your back door. Don’t be fearful - be firm in the conviction that it must conform to the rationality of the secular world. Give no quarter.

Stay Well
Wot

Well, you ought to read some of the letters I write to local newspapers (my university president once said to me in an incredulous voice: “You’re attacking the Pope???” but I have tenure so I can do what I want smile )  As I said, we all do what we can.  Not being a Muslim, I can’t do much from within, but I do make my views known.  You can be the bad cop, I prefer the role of good cop wink .  One thing I know, religious fundamentalism tends to die out, or at least get reduced to an irritation, with economic prosperity.  The alternative to the hard work of helping the Middle Eastern countries develop is to just build a wall around the entire area, and that isn’t working too well for the Israelis (maybe because in walling the Arabs out they’re walling themselves in).  I suspect that in a really secular world (where religions accepted the conditions: don’t impose, do no harm) religions would flourish.

Islamic fundamentalism has not died out in 1400 years now, nor has it been reduced to a mere irritation. Islam has only itself to blame for the lack of prosperity as no theocracy have ever precipitated prosperity. History, common sense and Wotansson are against you on this. There will be no prosperity while medieval Islam maintains its grip. I hope you are not a tenured professor of history or logic either for that matter.
Ever wonder why Islam so strenuously opposes secular society?
The seculars are are liberal and accepting so common sense would say they would embrace secular society. If you cannot discern the answer, just ask me.
Since you are an educator perhaps you will appreciate the golden rule of kindergarten - get along or go sit in the corner. The partitioning of Palestine was probably a bad political mistake. The Semites got along much better before we partitioned them.

Wassail
Wotansson

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Posted: 23 July 2008 02:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 44 ]  
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Wotansson - 23 July 2008 05:47 PM
burt - 23 July 2008 03:53 PM
Wotansson - 22 July 2008 04:07 PM


We’re in the same boat (or, perhaps swimming) as far as not following a religion, where we might differ is that I think some people prefer, as a matter of choice, to adhere to one
or another religion.  From my perspective, the ideal world would have all children educated in a way that when they reached responsible age they could chose their own path, religious or otherwise, without social or parental pressure playing a role (raving idealist that I am).  In that sort of world, religions would have to behave.  I agree that today, the most violent aspects of religion show up more often in Islam, but that is more of a cultural thing I think and is one of the main problems that has to be dealt with within the Islamic world—if it is to survive.

Lets those who so choose, adhere to whatever suits them. But the religious refuse to accept the two rules; don’t impose it on me and do me no harm.
You are not a raving idealist. Just go do it. We had that discussion before.
Dealt with within Islam? Did you really say that? Oh no - you did. You think Islam is uniform and capable of doing that? You talk like Islam is confined to regions where they can just go work it out, like the lions in the cage at the zoo. Open your eyes and ears my friend. Islam is in your face and at your back door. Don’t be fearful - be firm in the conviction that it must conform to the rationality of the secular world. Give no quarter.

Stay Well
Wot

Well, you ought to read some of the letters I write to local newspapers (my university president once said to me in an incredulous voice: “You’re attacking the Pope???” but I have tenure so I can do what I want smile )  As I said, we all do what we can.  Not being a Muslim, I can’t do much from within, but I do make my views known.  You can be the bad cop, I prefer the role of good cop wink .  One thing I know, religious fundamentalism tends to die out, or at least get reduced to an irritation, with economic prosperity.  The alternative to the hard work of helping the Middle Eastern countries develop is to just build a wall around the entire area, and that isn’t working too well for the Israelis (maybe because in walling the Arabs out they’re walling themselves in).  I suspect that in a really secular world (where religions accepted the conditions: don’t impose, do no harm) religions would flourish.

Islamic fundamentalism has not died out in 1400 years now, nor has it been reduced to a mere irritation. Islam has only itself to blame for the lack of prosperity as no theocracy have ever precipitated prosperity. History, common sense and Wotansson are against you on this. There will be no prosperity while medieval Islam maintains its grip. I hope you are not a tenured professor of history or logic either for that matter.
Ever wonder why Islam so strenuously opposes secular society?
The seculars are are liberal and accepting so common sense would say they would embrace secular society. If you cannot discern the answer, just ask me.
Since you are an educator perhaps you will appreciate the golden rule of kindergarten - get along or go sit in the corner. The partitioning of Palestine was probably a bad political mistake. The Semites got along much better before we partitioned them.

Wassail
Wotansson

Actually, Islamic fundamentalism didn’t come in until around the time of the Crusades, followed by the Mongol invasions (I recall being told by an Iraqi friend that something like 3 million people in the Mesopotamian area were killed, and the entire culture destroyed).  The theological groundwork for it was laid in the late 11th century by al Ghazali (one of Jack’s favorites).  While there were fundamentalists earlier, Islamic society was pretty open and liberal when compared to any of the others at the time.  People of other religions paid an extra tax, but were not forced to become Muslims, sciences were supported, and so on.  Not what we would like for a secular society, but still relatively open.  Remember, 1000 years ago it was European scholars who traveled to Islamic Spain for the freedom of expression and intellectual stimulation they couldn’t get at home.  That doesn’t mean much to us today except historically, but believe me, Arabs remember this very clearly.  The sociological equation is that when threatened by an external force, a group tends to revert to fundamentalism.  In the Islamic world this took place between around 1100 and 1300 and that trapped them in the theocratic stagnation they experience today (other than Iran, which in spite of its current ruling radicals, is quite scientifically advanced—something I attribute in part to the particular form of sufism that flourished there).  And not to worry, I’m in math, not history, although I do teach a course in scientific reasoning (where the only mention of Islam is a historical note that the collapse of Islamic science in the 13th and 14th centuries was in large part due to the rise of fundamentalism).  grin  Of course, when we say Islam this and Islam that (or Christianity this, Christianity that) we are committing the fallacy of reification and lumping a great diversity of attitudes under a single term.

[ Edited: 23 July 2008 02:22 PM by burt]
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Posted: 23 July 2008 07:41 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 45 ]  
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People of other religions paid an extra tax, but were not forced to become Muslims….

Neighboring peoples were given an ultimatum by the Arabs; convert to Islam, pay the tax, or war. Those choosing to pay the tax were considered second class and subservient. Some took the third choice. This how Turkey became Islamic. Not a reasonable good-neighbor policy IMO, but suitable to the Islam principles, mentality and culture.

Stay Well
Wot

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