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Atheist to Muslim Convert
Posted: 20 August 2008 08:45 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 46 ]  
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Unbeliever - 20 August 2008 12:36 PM

Considering that basically no one can agree on what an atheist actually is I find it to be extremely likely that you can not ascertain how I distinguish different groups of non believers yes.

As all things non-material are defined by only our use and understanding of language, I couldn’t agree more.

One thing to consider (as was so aptly displayed in the movie “True Believer” where a once very religious Jewish teen became a Nazi) is that some people are so fervent that they almost represent both sides of the equation.

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Posted: 20 August 2008 09:16 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 47 ]  
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LogicAndReason - 20 August 2008 12:45 PM

One thing to consider (as was so aptly displayed in the movie “True Believer” where a once very religious Jewish teen became a Nazi) is that some people are so fervent that they almost represent both sides of the equation.

Absolutely, in fact its funny, I read something in the paper yesterday that hits spot on to what you just said.

A couple of days ago the police had noticed someone setting up posters all over town in a city called Uppsala. The posters were offering people 50 € for beating up members of a far right nationalist group.

It was discovred that the posters had been put up by a radical left anti-faschism group.

*facepalm*

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Posted: 20 August 2008 09:24 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 48 ]  
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In the west we see extremes as being on the opposite ends of a line heading in opposite directions.  In the east, traditional thought is that life is cyclical/circular and that extremes meet at the top of the circle.

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Posted: 20 August 2008 12:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 49 ]  
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LogicAndReason - 20 August 2008 01:24 PM

In the west we see extremes as being on the opposite ends of a line heading in opposite directions.  In the east, traditional thought is that life is cyclical/circular and that extremes meet at the top of the circle.

If the circle is a color wheel (red state/blue state) then they don’t quite meet at the top, there is a point missing.  We conjure the color purple to fill it/  There is no wavelength in the visual spectrum that corresponds to seeing purple, the royal color (or, the color of madness).

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Posted: 20 August 2008 12:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 50 ]  
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Unbeliever - 20 August 2008 12:36 PM
thepredatorhandshake - 20 August 2008 10:03 AM

Ok, so you’re clearly not willing to take my word for it that I AM ABLE to ascertain what an atheist is, right?!

Yes its a peculiar little trait I have that I don’t by default take the hearsay of random forum posters on the internet for confirmed.

Considering that basically no one can agree on what an atheist actually is I find it to be extremely likely that you can not ascertain how I distinguish different groups of non believers yes.

Thats why I tried to explain which kind of people I am talking about clearly in my first post. Which is a narrow group.

I did say its not impossible though, although I think its unlikely for someone who has spent time arguing over the idiocy of having an emotional experience and then believe in god, to have such an experience without being able to see it for what it is.

Its perhaps as rare as a fascist/pascifist conversion, or a communist/capitalist conversion.
Its surely possible, not common enough to warrant a forum thread on it though which leads me to wonder what the point of this actually is.

Well, I’m not interested in semantics, but I do have to say I think you are looking at this within a very narrow viewpoint. I am an anarchist/capitalist convert myself, as well as a pacifist/realist convert too.

The POINT of all this, as you so politely asked, is to see if anyone has opinions as to why people convert to Islam. Whether they are atheists, or as you suggest agnostic/other, isn’t so important as to WHY they are doing it!

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Posted: 20 August 2008 01:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 51 ]  
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burt - 20 August 2008 04:28 PM
LogicAndReason - 20 August 2008 01:24 PM

In the west we see extremes as being on the opposite ends of a line heading in opposite directions.  In the east, traditional thought is that life is cyclical/circular and that extremes meet at the top of the circle.

If the circle is a color wheel (red state/blue state) then they don’t quite meet at the top, there is a point missing.  We conjure the color purple to fill it/  There is no wavelength in the visual spectrum that corresponds to seeing purple, the royal color (or, the color of madness).

Both are wrong. There are no lines to be drawn, only causes to be championed.

I’ve never met a political theorist yet able to pigeonhole me, and I’m proud of that. I’m atheist (anti-theist to be precise) yet am anti-abortion. This on its own causes most people to give me that dumb “does not compute” look.

Forget lines and circles. Lets concentrate on viewpoints, actions, words and causes.

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Posted: 20 August 2008 01:37 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 52 ]  
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thepredatorhandshake - 20 August 2008 04:59 PM

The POINT of all this, as you so politely asked, is to see if anyone has opinions as to why people convert to Islam. Whether they are atheists, or as you suggest agnostic/other, isn’t so important as to WHY they are doing it!

Its massively important. I’m frankly astonished if you don’t get that. If you are interested in knowing the conditions for a non believer to convert to theism. But it makes all the difference in the world what the person who converted believed before converting. Because thats central to WHY the person converted.

As a person who has spent a long time arguing for example on complexity I have spent countless hours trying to get people to understand both how complexity or what appears as design arises naturally with sufficiently long periods of time and very simple rules. At the same time I’ve spent a lot of time teaching people to NOT trust their intuition on these things as our minds are not evolved to deal with time spans of millions of years. Our intuition will often tell us that a complex system arising naturally is impossible even when the data says it is.

Given these facts about me. Should I suddently become a believer in intelligent design, it stands to reason that its highly inlikely that the reason I converted was because of the complexity argument. That is, the chance of me waking up one day, bewildered by the complexity of life and then concluding there is a god is diminishingly small.

If you think that in analyzing my conversion at that point has no use for knowing what my point of view on evolution was before I converted. Then you are not going to reach any sensible conclusions.

The only possible reasons one might have for wanting to know why some people convert to religion is to learn either how to keep people from converting or how to make them do so. In both cases, the key is knowing what beliefs vaccinates you against theism and which leave you as potential prey.

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Posted: 21 August 2008 04:20 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 53 ]  
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Unbeliever - 20 August 2008 05:37 PM
thepredatorhandshake - 20 August 2008 04:59 PM

The POINT of all this, as you so politely asked, is to see if anyone has opinions as to why people convert to Islam. Whether they are atheists, or as you suggest agnostic/other, isn’t so important as to WHY they are doing it!

Its massively important. I’m frankly astonished if you don’t get that. If you are interested in knowing the conditions for a non believer to convert to theism. But it makes all the difference in the world what the person who converted believed before converting. Because thats central to WHY the person converted.

As a person who has spent a long time arguing for example on complexity I have spent countless hours trying to get people to understand both how complexity or what appears as design arises naturally with sufficiently long periods of time and very simple rules. At the same time I’ve spent a lot of time teaching people to NOT trust their intuition on these things as our minds are not evolved to deal with time spans of millions of years. Our intuition will often tell us that a complex system arising naturally is impossible even when the data says it is.

Given these facts about me. Should I suddently become a believer in intelligent design, it stands to reason that its highly inlikely that the reason I converted was because of the complexity argument. That is, the chance of me waking up one day, bewildered by the complexity of life and then concluding there is a god is diminishingly small.

If you think that in analyzing my conversion at that point has no use for knowing what my point of view on evolution was before I converted. Then you are not going to reach any sensible conclusions.

The only possible reasons one might have for wanting to know why some people convert to religion is to learn either how to keep people from converting or how to make them do so. In both cases, the key is knowing what beliefs vaccinates you against theism and which leave you as potential prey.

Ok, we’re getting somewhere now. I take your points.

The cases I’m referring to were atheist in the sense that they had received state exposure to the Protestant groan machine, and remained utterly convinced that Judeo-Christian mythology WAS mythological and that there was NO deity at its head.

If I understand the main drive of your argument, you’re restricting “atheist” to people who’ve looked into the arguments in a certain level of detail.

Bearing in mind that 80% of people are too apathetic or inert to even know about the arguments, those of them that are utterly convinced, like my acquaintances, should be considered in the same category. They are still going from “no god” to “Al is the one god”, and I’m curious as to how this occurs.

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Posted: 06 September 2008 09:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 54 ]  
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thepredatorhandshake - 30 July 2008 08:17 AM

I am interested in the opinions of others as to how someone who is agnostic/atheist/non-religious/disillusioned with Xtianity/etc, could POSSIBLY convert to Islam?

An increasing amount of these conversions are taking place, mainly (and worryingly) young women, and I really don’t understand how this can happen…this religion doesn’t respect women, does it?

Some possibilities I have come up with…different people will have different reasons. Suggestions welcome.


1.) Attention-seeking
2.) Peer pressure - e.g. “seduced by their cool Muslim friends”
3.) Indoctrination
4.) Media lies
5.) Dishonesty about what Islam is
6.) Propaganda
7.) Hippie new age curiousity and novelty - (wow i get to wear new clothes and be cool)
8.) Rebellion - esp. family rebellion
9.) White guilt
10.) The same reason as most ‘religious’ people do it….filing a gap in their lives

to which others add

11) Sexual infatuation
12) Submissive women

Let’s start with the obvious truths here. The original poster and his cheering section is a bunch of small-minded, large-mouthed, incompletely socialized, emotionally inadequate, intellectually sub-standard, self-congratulatory, cerebrally onanistic bigots. Think British National Front but without the shiny jackboots.

The code words are clear - hippie, white guilt, rebellion, peer-pressure, media lies. It leads inevitably to the conclusion that their lips are so firmly wrapped around the Karl Rovian cigar it would require a team of mules, the Jaws of Life and a plasma cutter to separate them.

I know a number of women who have become Muslims. Of course, some of them are Black which means that they don’t really count. After all, it’s “White Guilt” or being a “hippie” that’s a major factor. We all know that *shudder* Negroes will adopt all sorts of degenerate foreign practices. Why, some of them don’t even lower their eyes and call White people “Massa” these days.

Strange to say, every one of these women knows a lot more about Islam good and bad than anyone here. They’ve all studied it, and not just a pamphlet given out at the masjid. Can you name and characterize the major schools of Islamic jurisprudence without going to Google? No? All of them can. They are all educated, intelligent, long past rebellion and lead fulfilling lives as far as I can tell. They include a number of scientists including - oh the horror - a couple evolutionary biologists and high-powered corporate lawyers.

Sexual infatuation? Speak for yourself.

Submissive? Hold on a second. I need to sit down and get some air. You obviously don’t know them, particularly my wife.

She’s looking over my shoulder and says “White guilt. Definitely White Guilt.” Her mother is from China. Her father was the first Black man to join a fraternity at Amherst. Original Poster, your white sheet is looking a little grubby.

Peer pressure? Oh yeah. Being a Muslim in America is definitely cool and popular. It’s a great way to get spit on, kicked, beaten until your friends don’t recognize you, knifed, yelled at by random people, pulled over by the police, cuffed and detained for questioning with no probable cause let alone arrest or charges, denied boarding on airlines forever for no stated reason and all sorts of other fun things that make you part of the “in, hip crowd”. And yes, every single one of these things has happened to people I know simply because they adopted Islam.

The people cheering the OP on are as pathetic a circle-jerk I’ve found since my last run in with Skinheads some years back. But I have to give the boneheads some credit. They would fight for what they believed in and had some courage of their convictions. They never pretended to be anything but a bunch of primitive tribal thugs who hated everyone who wasn’t like them. This happy little cheerleading section doesn’t even have that big a set.

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Posted: 07 September 2008 07:20 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 55 ]  
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telner - 07 September 2008 01:09 AM
thepredatorhandshake - 30 July 2008 08:17 AM

I am interested in the opinions of others as to how someone who is agnostic/atheist/non-religious/disillusioned with Xtianity/etc, could POSSIBLY convert to Islam?

An increasing amount of these conversions are taking place, mainly (and worryingly) young women, and I really don’t understand how this can happen…this religion doesn’t respect women, does it?

Some possibilities I have come up with…different people will have different reasons. Suggestions welcome.


1.) Attention-seeking
2.) Peer pressure - e.g. “seduced by their cool Muslim friends”
3.) Indoctrination
4.) Media lies
5.) Dishonesty about what Islam is
6.) Propaganda
7.) Hippie new age curiousity and novelty - (wow i get to wear new clothes and be cool)
8.) Rebellion - esp. family rebellion
9.) White guilt
10.) The same reason as most ‘religious’ people do it….filing a gap in their lives

to which others add

11) Sexual infatuation
12) Submissive women

Let’s start with the obvious truths here. The original poster and his cheering section is a bunch of small-minded, large-mouthed, incompletely socialized, emotionally inadequate, intellectually sub-standard, self-congratulatory, cerebrally onanistic bigots. Think British National Front but without the shiny jackboots.

The code words are clear - hippie, white guilt, rebellion, peer-pressure, media lies. It leads inevitably to the conclusion that their lips are so firmly wrapped around the Karl Rovian cigar it would require a team of mules, the Jaws of Life and a plasma cutter to separate them.

I know a number of women who have become Muslims. Of course, some of them are Black which means that they don’t really count. After all, it’s “White Guilt” or being a “hippie” that’s a major factor. We all know that *shudder* Negroes will adopt all sorts of degenerate foreign practices. Why, some of them don’t even lower their eyes and call White people “Massa” these days.

Strange to say, every one of these women knows a lot more about Islam good and bad than anyone here. They’ve all studied it, and not just a pamphlet given out at the masjid. Can you name and characterize the major schools of Islamic jurisprudence without going to Google? No? All of them can. They are all educated, intelligent, long past rebellion and lead fulfilling lives as far as I can tell. They include a number of scientists including - oh the horror - a couple evolutionary biologists and high-powered corporate lawyers.

Sexual infatuation? Speak for yourself.

Submissive? Hold on a second. I need to sit down and get some air. You obviously don’t know them, particularly my wife.

She’s looking over my shoulder and says “White guilt. Definitely White Guilt.” Her mother is from China. Her father was the first Black man to join a fraternity at Amherst. Original Poster, your white sheet is looking a little grubby.

Peer pressure? Oh yeah. Being a Muslim in America is definitely cool and popular. It’s a great way to get spit on, kicked, beaten until your friends don’t recognize you, knifed, yelled at by random people, pulled over by the police, cuffed and detained for questioning with no probable cause let alone arrest or charges, denied boarding on airlines forever for no stated reason and all sorts of other fun things that make you part of the “in, hip crowd”. And yes, every single one of these things has happened to people I know simply because they adopted Islam.

The people cheering the OP on are as pathetic a circle-jerk I’ve found since my last run in with Skinheads some years back. But I have to give the boneheads some credit. They would fight for what they believed in and had some courage of their convictions. They never pretended to be anything but a bunch of primitive tribal thugs who hated everyone who wasn’t like them. This happy little cheerleading section doesn’t even have that big a set.

You consistently try to link the criticism of Islam with racial discrimination throughout your post. I have not seen this on this forum. Please point out the specific posts which do this.

Have you reviewed the posts made by the the Islamic adherents on this forum? Do you still not understand why Islam is subjected to ridicule and satire?

It is not necessary to understand all the facets of Islam to understand it, any more than it necessary to understand all the fine points of Nazism to understand it. Nor is it required that one study under Islamic scholars any more than it is required that one study under Nazi scholars. It is sufficient to evaluate both at the bottom line and assess them based on their rational content and the impact upon the human race.

If you have a rational case to make for Islam, then please do so. Get off your “race horse”. Be aware that this forum is populated with atheist, rationalist and humanists. Be forewarned and do not expect a free pass because of race or faith.

Stay Well
Wotansson

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Posted: 07 September 2008 07:38 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 56 ]  
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telner - 07 September 2008 01:09 AM

Let’s start with the obvious truths here ...

You need to calm yourself and take your intellect back from your emotions—they’ve hijacked it.

Then I recommend you consider why emotions so often dominate religious discussions.

Byron

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