Sam Harris

[Why does Fundie Islam hate the west? Culture or belief? 
Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 2:13 pm  

Noggin

  Sept 11th. Nuff said. I was under the impression that Islamic jihaddhists hate the west because western women flagrantly shake their booty and our pop culture drives them batty with pious wrath and indignation. ]

Excuse my simple question.

Why does Islam make their women cover all over but allowes belly dancers to perform half naked erotic dances? Do those performers have to cover themselves in black when they are on the streets?

I have seen only men going to Meca and do their praying to Meca, how do women practice their faith? in private? why?

Thank you
isabella

[quote author=“isabella”][Why does Fundie Islam hate the west? Culture or belief? 
Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 2:13 pm  

Noggin

  Sept 11th. Nuff said. I was under the impression that Islamic jihaddhists hate the west because western women flagrantly shake their booty and our pop culture drives them batty with pious wrath and indignation. ]

Excuse my simple question.

Why does Islam make their women cover all over but allowes belly dancers to perform half naked erotic dances? Do those performers have to cover themselves in black when they are on the streets?

I have seen only men going to Meca and do their praying to Meca, how do women practice their faith? in private? why?

Thank you
isabella

isabella,

I hope the following may answer your questions and clearify which practice is cultural and which is Islamic.

[Qur’an 33:59] O Prophet! Tell thy wives and thy daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks close round them (when they go abroad). That will be better, so that they may be recognised and not annoyed. Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.

[Qur’an 24:30] Tell the believing men to lower their gaze and be modest. That is purer for them. Lo! Allah is aware of what they do.
[Qur’an 24:31] And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and be modest, and to display of their adornment only that which is apparent, and to draw their veils over their bosoms, and not to reveal their adornment save to their own husbands or fathers or husbands’ fathers, or their sons or their husbands’ sons, or their brothers or their brothers’ sons or sisters’ sons, or their women, or their slaves, or male attendants who lack vigour, or children who know naught of women’s nakedness. And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment. And turn unto Allah together, O believers, in order that ye may succeed.

[Pooya/Ali Commentary 24:30]

The rule of modesty applies to men as well as women.
It is man, as the stronger sex, who ignites the flame of passion into woman, so he is addressed first to observe the rules of discipline mentioned in these verses. Not to look freely at the faces of the women who are not his sisters, daughters, mothers or wives is the fundamental injunction to put a complete ban on the lusting with the eyes which serves as a most powerful agency for the prevention and control of sexual crimes. The way in which sense-perceptions give rise to sex stimulation can hardly be overrated. Islam does not allow free and unrestricted intermingling of the sexes. It insists upon segregation of the sexes and bans altogether lewd audio and video presentation of life, real as well as imaginary. It completely bans every form of nudity.
On account of the differentiation of the sexes in nature, temperament, and social life, a stricter discipline is required for woman than for man, especially in the matter of dress and public exhibition of the beauty of the body. Zinat implies the beauty of the body as well as the adornment a women adds to make it more attractive and stimulating.
The woman is asked not to make a display of her figure except to the classes of people mentioned in verse 31. ……..”

http://www.al-islam.org/quran/

“There are at least three reasons for my choice of that title. The first of these derives from the concern that many beliefs and practices have been labelled “Muslim” or “Islamic” without warranting those names. There are approximately 40 nations of the world which claim to have a Muslim majority population and therefore to be exemplary of “Muslim” or “Islamic” societies. This of course results in a great deal of confusion as the question is asked: Which of these regions represents most faithfully the true “Islamic” society? Among Muslims that question is most frequently answered by the claim that their own national or regional society is the truest to the intentions of Allah subhanahu wa ta’ala. …”

Women in a Qur’anic Society
Lois Lamya ’ al-F’aruqi
Vol I
http://www.al-islam.org/al-tawhid/women-society.htm

Women and the Hajj
http://al-islam.org/hajjandfiveschools/3.htm

Thank you.

Noggin wrote:

  Sept 11th. Nuff said. I was under the impression that Islamic jihaddhists hate the west because western women flagrantly shake their booty and our pop culture drives them batty with pious wrath and indignation.

Isabella asks:  Excuse my simple question.

Why does Islam make their women cover all over but allowes belly dancers to perform half naked erotic dances? Do those performers have to cover themselves in black when they are on the streets?

Their women are beautiful to them.  However, Muslim women are second class citizens who get there noses lopped off if they show their full face in public.  Aren’t Muslim women still considered property that Allah can just give away to men when men die?  Don’t men get 72 virgins if they lead a righteous muslim life?

I do not know if belly dancers have to cover themselves but allow me to speculate.  I gather that if a muslim man wants to entertain his sexual appetites and is wealthy, he may be able to have women dance for him belly style… in private.  However, this would not be tolerated in public.  e.g.  one would never find a full on Vegas style strip club or topless bar in Iran or Pakistan.  The culture is just not ready to deal with lust in that way.  Repression!

I have seen only men going to Meca and do their praying to Meca, how do women practice their faith? in private? why?

I am no expert, but as far as I am aware the hadj is for all muslim practioners.  All must make the trip to Mecca at least once in their lifetime.  Perhaps Guest can further enlighten you of my errors

Noggin

:D thank you guest for your reply.

I read with much interest this article
Women and the Hajj
http://al-islam.org/hajjandfiveschools/3.htm altho,ugh it may still take a century to come from this:
[1. EQUAL STATUS AND WORTH OF THE SEXES

The first of these characteristics of a Qur’anic society which affect women is that both sexes are held to be equal in status and worth. In other words, the Qur’an teaches us that women and men are all creatures of Allah, existing on a level of equal worth and value, although their equal importance does not substantiate a claim for their equivalence or perfect identity. This equality of male and female is documentable in the Qur’an in passages pertaining to at least four aspects of human existence and interaction.]

to this:

[Khan, new in this campaign for demanding equal rights for women inside the mosque, almost turned away from the door of the Islamic Center in Washington’s diplomatic enclave. “I told Asra I may not go in but I did,” she said, referring to Asra Nomani, the woman who started the campaign about three years ago from a mosque in Morgantown, W. Va.

“Last night, I was afraid. Today it felt very nice,” said Khan who met first met Nomani last week but was not willing to go to the mosque with her until Thursday night and was having second thoughts when they arrived at the mosque Friday afternoon. Her desire for regaining the equal status that she believes Islam has given her, but has been denied to her by Muslim men, overcame her fear.

“I felt like I have to do it because nobody else will do it for me. All my friends were saying it is dangerous, why you are doing this,” said Khan. “I also thought it may be violent, I may be arrested.”

Nomani, a former Wall Street Journal reporter and the author of a book on Muslim women, is now a veteran. Besides praying in the same hall as men at various mosques, Nomani also participated in the first-ever woman-led prayers in New York and Boston last month.

According to Nomani and her supporters, including an Islamic scholar Amina Wadud, Islam does not prevent women from leading prayers or saying their prayers beside men. They note that even today, men and women pray side by side in Islam’s two holiest mosques in Mecca and Medina, in Saudi Arabia.]

about women as art performers

The dancing girls of Egypt from the Ghawazee tribe performed unveiled in the public streets to amuse the rabble. Their dancing had little elegance. The dancers would begin decorously enough, but soon their movements became more energetic and more vibrant, in time with the rapid rhythmic beat of the cymbals. They often performed in the court of a house or in the street in front of a house, on festive occasions in the harem, such as a marriage or the birth of a child. The Ghawazee dancing girls were never admitted into a respectable harem, but they were frequently hired to entertain a party of men in a house of ill repute. These performances were more lascivious and they usually wore nothing but the smintiyan (trousers) or a very full skirt called a Tob.

sincerely,
Isabella

“Understanding is a three edged sword” Kosh