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Stop discrimination against pigs!
Posted: 17 September 2008 02:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]  
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Ahhh Jack, you do religion proud.  Ignoring scientific evidence, rephrasing questions to change the meaning to suit your argument, unaware that you are blinded by religious dogmas, truly you are a credit to your faith.

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Posted: 17 September 2008 05:35 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]  
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I’m sure the pigs are strongly in favor or kashruth and sharia. They’d much rather see people eating chickens and sheep than, well, them.

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Posted: 17 September 2008 08:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]  
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mesomorph - 17 September 2008 08:16 AM
little baby cheeses - 17 September 2008 07:59 AM

Well I could provide chapter and verse, but I’d have to go looking.

You mistake me LBC, I was using the statement as proof of my thesis, not questioning your data!

Nope didn’t mistake you, the ‘quote chapter and verse’ was meant to be a humorous nod in the religious direction, but something got lost in translation - we antipodeans are barely literate at times.

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Posted: 18 September 2008 09:49 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]  
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little baby cheeses - 17 September 2008 06:24 PM

Ahhh Jack, you do religion proud.  Ignoring scientific evidence, rephrasing questions to change the meaning to suit your argument, unaware that you are blinded by religious dogmas, truly you are a credit to your faith.

What scientific evidence have I ignored?  What have I rephrased to change the meaning to suit my argument?  What you say is balony, naturally.

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Posted: 18 September 2008 02:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]  
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Jack,
One, it a scientifically quantifiable and proven fact that pigs in their natural environment are clean animals.  In their natural state pigs do not lie in their own excrement, they do not eat their young, etcetera.  It is only when unnaturally confined by humans that pigs do these unnatural things. 

In simple terms, it is humans that make pigs “filthy”.  So who is to blame, the enforcer of filth (humans), or the recipient (pigs)?  If I were to lock you in a small room with plenty of food and water but no waste disposal system, you would be “filthy” at the end of six months.  So who is guilty of wrong in this case, me who locked you up, or you who is now “filthy”?

In fact, given that humans cause pigs to be “filthy”, it is pigs that should have a code of conduct (Religion) that prohibits them from having any contact with humans.

Two, here is your rephrasing of a question.
I asked “when given the choice of dying of heat exhaustion or temporarily lying in your own excrement, which would you choose, life or death?”

You then avoided the question and changed it to an end of life scenario and asked it of me.  Here is your rephrasing “Actually, a lot of people would rather be dead than have to lie in their own filth.  I deal with seniors, and they tell me this all the time.  What about yourselve, wouldn’t you rather be dead before the day comes where you are bed ridden and crapping yourself, waiting for some person to come and change you, meanwhile you have bed sores and skin breakdown from the burning excrement?”

Few would argue that at the end of a long and productive life, many would like a death of their choosing which does not involve incontinence.  But a young, healthy and sane person would choose death over lying in their own shit, unless perhaps they had a terminal illness.

Oh, and baloney contains pork btw.

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Posted: 20 September 2008 09:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]  
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little baby cheeses - 18 September 2008 06:38 PM

Jack,
One, it a scientifically quantifiable and proven fact that pigs in their natural environment are clean animals.  In their natural state pigs do not lie in their own excrement, they do not eat their young, etcetera.  It is only when unnaturally confined by humans that pigs do these unnatural things. 

In simple terms, it is humans that make pigs “filthy”.  So who is to blame, the enforcer of filth (humans), or the recipient (pigs)?  If I were to lock you in a small room with plenty of food and water but no waste disposal system, you would be “filthy” at the end of six months.  So who is guilty of wrong in this case, me who locked you up, or you who is now “filthy”?

In fact, given that humans cause pigs to be “filthy”, it is pigs that should have a code of conduct (Religion) that prohibits them from having any contact with humans.

Two, here is your rephrasing of a question.
I asked “when given the choice of dying of heat exhaustion or temporarily lying in your own excrement, which would you choose, life or death?”

You then avoided the question and changed it to an end of life scenario and asked it of me.  Here is your rephrasing “Actually, a lot of people would rather be dead than have to lie in their own filth.  I deal with seniors, and they tell me this all the time.  What about yourselve, wouldn’t you rather be dead before the day comes where you are bed ridden and crapping yourself, waiting for some person to come and change you, meanwhile you have bed sores and skin breakdown from the burning excrement?”

Few would argue that at the end of a long and productive life, many would like a death of their choosing which does not involve incontinence.  But a young, healthy and sane person would choose death over lying in their own shit, unless perhaps they had a terminal illness.

Oh, and baloney contains pork btw.

I’ve never seen chickens, or cows, or even elephants lie in their own dung, or eat it for that matter.  So are these later animals more ‘cleaner’ than pigs?  Clearly, some animals are more cleaner than others, and I would still hold that pigs are unclean animals.

But in any case, I’ve been saying all along that Muslims don’t like pigs insofar as pigs are considered a source of food.  You admittedly state that when humans try to use pigs for food, pigs naturally become ‘filthy’ creatures.

Likewise, as to who is to blame for pigs becoming filthy creatures?  Obviously, human beings.  That is of course why Islam prohibits people from eating pigs; people are punishable, not pigs.  To be clear, pigs are innocent, but their consumers are not.  That is what I have been saying all along, that pigs are creatures of God, but creatures that are NOT meant to be eaten by human beings, because pigs are filthy (even if we only agree that pigs only “become” filthy after being raised by humans), and yes God creates things that are also considered ‘filthy’.

Secondly, I didn’t avoid your question.  First of all, what does ‘temporarily’ lying in your own filth to avoid death meant?  My answer was essentially, sometimes people would rather die, perhaps myself included (I am undecided as of yet) than loose a certain standard of quality of life.  So I haven’t avoided anything.

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Posted: 20 September 2008 11:29 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]  
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Jack Shooter - 21 September 2008 01:13 AM

I’ve never seen chickens, or cows, or even elephants lie in their own dung, or eat it for that matter.  So are these later animals more ‘cleaner’ than pigs?  Clearly, some animals are more cleaner than others, and I would still hold that pigs are unclean animals.

Secondly, I didn’t avoid your question.  First of all, what does ‘temporarily’ lying in your own filth to avoid death meant?

I can’t comment on elephants, but chickens in confinement will eat their young, each other and their own dung - again not hearsay but provable observable replicable facts. 

Also provable facts; the beef you eat including Halal is CAFO finished.  This means the cattle are made to stand and sleep in their dung and urine (filth).  In winter this is a sewer slurry, and in summer it produces a faecal particulate dust so thick that it requires constant dosage antibiotics to keep the animals ‘healthy’ and alive.  In other words, cattle not only lie in their own shit, they breathe it into their lungs and eat it as well.  But of course the kill and beef meat is ‘Halal’ so that makes it OK for the animals to lie in their own excrement for the last 120 to 180 days of their lives, and then to be eaten by good Muslims. 

I have explained the “temporarily lying in own filth to avoid death”, but here it is again.  Assume you are young and healthy and have a full life ahead of you.  Now assume you are in the middle of a heat wave.  Next assume that there is a cool pond of filth nearby, and lying in it is the ONLY thing that will save you from dying of heat exhaustion.  What do you do, die, or lie in the cool filth temporarily whilst the heat wave passes so that you may live?

Here’s another example.  Assume Christian extremists plan to bomb a building.  You hear about the bombing in advance but are trapped in the building with your young family.  The ONLY escape is to wade through the filth of the underground sewers to safety.  Do you temporarily wade through ‘filth’ to save you and your families lives, or do you not do so and die?

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Posted: 21 September 2008 08:55 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]  
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little baby cheeses - 21 September 2008 03:29 AM
Jack Shooter - 21 September 2008 01:13 AM

I’ve never seen chickens, or cows, or even elephants lie in their own dung, or eat it for that matter.  So are these later animals more ‘cleaner’ than pigs?  Clearly, some animals are more cleaner than others, and I would still hold that pigs are unclean animals.

Secondly, I didn’t avoid your question.  First of all, what does ‘temporarily’ lying in your own filth to avoid death meant?

I can’t comment on elephants, but chickens in confinement will eat their young, each other and their own dung - again not hearsay but provable observable replicable facts. 

Also provable facts; the beef you eat including Halal is CAFO finished.  This means the cattle are made to stand and sleep in their dung and urine (filth).  In winter this is a sewer slurry, and in summer it produces a faecal particulate dust so thick that it requires constant dosage antibiotics to keep the animals ‘healthy’ and alive.  In other words, cattle not only lie in their own shit, they breathe it into their lungs and eat it as well.  But of course the kill and beef meat is ‘Halal’ so that makes it OK for the animals to lie in their own excrement for the last 120 to 180 days of their lives, and then to be eaten by good Muslims. 

I have explained the “temporarily lying in own filth to avoid death”, but here it is again.  Assume you are young and healthy and have a full life ahead of you.  Now assume you are in the middle of a heat wave.  Next assume that there is a cool pond of filth nearby, and lying in it is the ONLY thing that will save you from dying of heat exhaustion.  What do you do, die, or lie in the cool filth temporarily whilst the heat wave passes so that you may live?

Here’s another example.  Assume Christian extremists plan to bomb a building.  You hear about the bombing in advance but are trapped in the building with your young family.  The ONLY escape is to wade through the filth of the underground sewers to safety.  Do you temporarily wade through ‘filth’ to save you and your families lives, or do you not do so and die?

Like I said before, it depends how you define ‘temporarily’.  The examples you provide are not fair comparisons to the life of the average pig that you eat, even before today’s cruel treatment of all farm animals.  That is, pigs don’t only temporarily live in their own filth, especially when confined by humans in barns.  This was always the case, in any barnyard, even before today’s mass consumption of pigs.  As to cows and chickens eating their own filth, this is a more modern phenomenon driven by mass consumption and would not exist under traditional barnyard circumstances.  I believe what is done to cows and chickens nowaday is extremely immoral, and it makes eating them questionable even if they are deemed halal due to the way they are eventually slaughtered.  Islam commands that animals be treated properly in addition to being slaughtered properly, so the current meat industry definitely creates a problem, and most Muslims realize this.

Going back to the original issue though, you should really give up defending pigs as being clean animals, even cleaner than most humans.  Really, it’s quite absurd.

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Posted: 21 September 2008 01:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]  
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Jack Shooter - 21 September 2008 12:55 PM

Going back to the original issue though, you should really give up defending pigs as being clean animals, even cleaner than most humans.  Really, it’s quite absurd.

Well may you say it is absurd, but the contention that pigs IN THEIR NATURAL ENVIRONMENT and UNCONSTRAINED BY HUMAN INTERVENTION are cleaner than humans is able to be proved scientifically.  Apologies for shouting but you appear to have latched on to the conclusion without the context.  Anyway let us agree to disagree.

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Posted: 23 September 2008 03:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]  
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I was reading something, and I don’t remember what it was, but it referred to human meat as “long pig”.  This was a translation of a word used by a tribe that actually DID practice cannibalism and eat pork too.

Apparently, and I surely don’t know from actual experience, humans taste like pork.

Is this somehow related to the prohibition against pork we find in the Bible and later in Islam? 

Who knows…

Just something to think about.

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Posted: 23 September 2008 04:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]  
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lisbliss, it was in this thread that you read that humans taste like pork.  Through out the Fiji islands human flesh was referred to as Long Pig and they had a special 4 pronged wooden fork so that they would not touch the cooked flesh with their hands.

I grew up in Fiji during the 1960’s and talked to several old men who had practised and/or remembered ritual cannibalism from the previous century.  Basically after a tribal battle the victors would ceremonially eat the parts of the vanquished they had admired - heart for courage, arm for strength, leg for speed and so on.  They believe this persons strengths would become theirs through the ritual eating, and it was also an honouring of their foes.

The vanquished that were not so admired were buried alive at the four corners of their houses, made into slaves and/or used as rollers to facilitate the launching of very heavy and long war canoes.

The British had stopped the practises by about the 1880’s I believe.  They prevented the inter tribal wars by setting up Queen Victoria as the biggest of chiefs who then ruled against it.  So now the Fijians play rugby instead! 

To finish on a religious note, it was said that the missionaries came to the islands to do good, and stayed to do well.

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Posted: 23 September 2008 07:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]  
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little baby cheeses - 23 September 2008 08:28 PM

lisbliss, it was in this thread that you read that humans taste like pork.  Through out the Fiji islands human flesh was referred to as Long Pig and they had a special 4 pronged wooden fork so that they would not touch the cooked flesh with their hands.

I grew up in Fiji during the 1960’s and talked to several old men who had practised and/or remembered ritual cannibalism from the previous century.  Basically after a tribal battle the victors would ceremonially eat the parts of the vanquished they had admired - heart for courage, arm for strength, leg for speed and so on.  They believe this persons strengths would become theirs through the ritual eating, and it was also an honouring of their foes.

The vanquished that were not so admired were buried alive at the four corners of their houses, made into slaves and/or used as rollers to facilitate the launching of very heavy and long war canoes.

The British had stopped the practises by about the 1880’s I believe.  They prevented the inter tribal wars by setting up Queen Victoria as the biggest of chiefs who then ruled against it.  So now the Fijians play rugby instead! 

To finish on a religious note, it was said that the missionaries came to the islands to do good, and stayed to do well.

Nah it wasn’t this thread, I scanned it though, but I read it somewhere else along time ago.

So, do people taste like pork?

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Posted: 23 September 2008 07:50 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]  
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By all accounts (historical) human flesh when cooked tastes and smells like pork.  A forensic pathologist friend won’t eat pork because apparently it smells like the charred car wreck bodies he deals with at work. 

The smell and taste similarities are not surprising; both species are mono-gastric mammalian omnivores, and we have taken to feeding pigs human foods - a free range piggery near me feeds their pigs day old breads (bakery ‘overs’), some roasted soy, and a small amount of alfalfa chaff.

So my educated guess is that if you fed humans and pigs the same diet, they would taste very similar.  You could set up a double blind test for it, but I guess the ethics committee might veto the experiment.

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Posted: 24 September 2008 01:37 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]  
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Iisbliss - 23 September 2008 07:43 PM

Is this somehow related to the prohibition against pork we find in the Bible and later in Islam?

The Jews would first have had to cook both people and pigs to make the comparison, wouldn’t they? I don’t think it’s that.

The ancient Egyptian priests had strict dietary rules which included abstention from the flesh of swine. Moses was in all probability brought up in familiarity with Egyptian priestly principles and adopted many of them for his new religion. Moses was very likely schooled as an Egyptian monotheist, as he lived around the time of Akhenaton*, so that would explain the central feature of Mosaic doctrine.

At any rate if you look at the iconography you will see many obvious parallels between Egyptian religion and early Judaism.

*Gary Greenberg The Moses Mystery: The Egyptian origins of the Jewish People or have a look here

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Posted: 24 September 2008 08:43 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]  
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little baby cheeses - 23 September 2008 08:28 PM

lisbliss, it was in this thread that you read that humans taste like pork.  Through out the Fiji islands human flesh was referred to as Long Pig and they had a special 4 pronged wooden fork so that they would not touch the cooked flesh with their hands.

I grew up in Fiji during the 1960’s and talked to several old men who had practised and/or remembered ritual cannibalism from the previous century.  Basically after a tribal battle the victors would ceremonially eat the parts of the vanquished they had admired - heart for courage, arm for strength, leg for speed and so on.  They believe this persons strengths would become theirs through the ritual eating, and it was also an honouring of their foes.

The vanquished that were not so admired were buried alive at the four corners of their houses, made into slaves and/or used as rollers to facilitate the launching of very heavy and long war canoes.

The British had stopped the practises by about the 1880’s I believe.  They prevented the inter tribal wars by setting up Queen Victoria as the biggest of chiefs who then ruled against it.  So now the Fijians play rugby instead! 

To finish on a religious note, it was said that the missionaries came to the islands to do good, and stayed to do well.

And the outbreak in New Guinea of kuru, transmitted by the respectful devouring of ancestors flesh after they had died.

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