End of Faith Contradiction
Posted: 08 January 2006 12:00 PM   [ Ignore ]  
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Hello Mr. Sam Harris

I am new to this forum. I listen to Mr. Sam Harris on C-Span Books section about his book "end of Faith". Quite a few of you like Driver seems like totally agree with him.

I think Mr. Harris has very wrong ideas in his book "end of faith" he is relating all the violence of this world to religious born thinkers, specially fundamentalist belivers of many faith.  I think any religion which is practicing today and has some followers, is because of this fundamentalist, otherwise many religion would have been demolised long time ago.

I seriously wanted to talk to him on his forum. He is also relating and blaming in his book, most of the human killings and crimes, on religious and fundamentalist thinkers. I may be wrong unless and until he talk to me and respond me on his forum.

My personal believe is that 90% violence, human killings and any kind of ethical, immoral and criminal act by any person, leader, groups or governments they do all these evildoer, just to gain the following 3 evil desire - and this has been going on since the birth of mankind - blamming and relating to any faith for these crimes is absolutely wrong:

1) to gain power and control on this world
2) For money and wealth
3) For Land

You name any violence, corruption, evildoer and human killings in this world will all be linked to one or all of the above three main things. Any one here wants to debate with me?

9-11 conspiracy is the main back bone used behind religious believe to gain the above three evil desire by many evil people of this world and specially in this country. Sam Harris is absolutely wrong in his book. If he has time, I can challenge him on his forum and I will proof him how wrong he is in his book. Or if any one here like Driver who agree with Mr. Sam can debate with me?
Kalanag

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Posted: 08 January 2006 04:03 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]  
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Kalang, welcome to the forum.

A couple of comments: 

If you have specific charges to level against Sam’s book, please make them in the ‘Specific Comments’ section, as that is the proper place for them.  I mostly agree with Sam, certainly on the main points that he has made, so I will do my best to respond to specific points that you might raise.

Also, I would propose that we formally restrict any debate to the arguments themselves, and not attack any of the people involved.

-Matt

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Posted: 14 January 2006 02:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]  
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[quote author=“psiconoclast”]Kalang, welcome to the forum.

A couple of comments: 

If you have specific charges to level against Sam’s book, please make them in the ‘Specific Comments’ section, as that is the proper place for them.  I mostly agree with Sam, certainly on the main points that he has made, so I will do my best to respond to specific points that you might raise.

Also, I would propose that we formally restrict any debate to the arguments themselves, and not attack any of the people involved.

-Matt

Thank you Matt
No Matt I do not have any charges against Sam’s book.  I was referring to his comment he made during C-SPAN book debate where he was saying that the idea he is taking in his book that most of the killings and haynes crimes in this world is happening because of the religious believings and specially by fundametalist believers.

What I want to debate with him, is that, his idea and Philosophy of his book is wrong.  My theory is that whether a man is an Atheist or a believer most of the haynes crimes and killings are happening in this world because of the following 3 main reasons:

1) to gain power, domination and control on the world
2) Wealth that includes: money, gold and oil
3) The Land

From the begining of the mankind above are the main reason of all the killings and haynes crimes by any leaders, group or a country and is not because of the fundamentalist believes on any religion.  An Atheist or any believers can do the same crimes becasue of the above 3 main reasons.  And I totally believe that 9-11 was the most ugly and insane conspiracy behind the picture of terrorism on the face of this earth and Mr. Harris is relating it to religious fundamentalist.  And I want to debate with Mr. Harris if he has time.

Mr. Matt I want to know what do you mean by your statement:
“Also, I would propose that we formally restrict any debate to the arguments themselves, and not attack any of the people involved”

I only want to talk to Mr. Harris unless you want to debate with me about Mr. Harris idea in his book.  I think he is absolutely wrong.  I don’t hate you if you or Mr. Harris is Atheist.  You beleive what you want to believe, but if you attack on someone’s religion and believe you better have good thorough knowledge to debate on it.

Regards\
Kalanag

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Posted: 14 January 2006 04:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]  
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Kalanag wrote:

My theory is that whether a man is an Atheist or a believer most of the haynes crimes and killings are happening in this world because of the following 3 main reasons:

1) to gain power, domination and control on the world
2) Wealth that includes: money, gold and oil
3) The Land

From the begining of the mankind above are the main reason of all the killings and haynes crimes by any leaders, group or a country and is not because of the fundamentalist believes on any religion. An Atheist or any believers can do the same crimes becasue of the above 3 main reasons. And I totally believe that 9-11 was the most ugly and insane conspiracy behind the picture of terrorism on the face of this earth and Mr. Harris is relating it to religious fundamentalist.

Hi, Kanalag and welcome to the forum. 

I’m going to think out loud here and see what turns up when I consider your theory here. 

First I would narrow it down even further to just one reason, Greed and its many forms. 

Secondly, I would say that Greed definitely works as a primary motive for crime, but belief in some higher cause is what seduces whole groups of otherwise rational men to commit heinous crimes and participate in wars on a grand scale.  Your theory may work fine when applied to the leaders of such groups, who personally benefit from the spoils of war, but greed on its own does not explain why millions of people will risk their lives and follow one mad leader into war or fly planes into buildings. 

As in the case of the 9-11 terrorists for whom there were no earthly pay-offs, no land, no money, no power to be gained, your theory in general doesn’t explain why the individual fighter, soldier, terrorist is willing to risk his or her life when they don’t personally gain any land, wealth or power.  How does greed explain suicide bombers?

A soldier or terrorist fights because he/she believes in a cause, and most likely if they believe it to be a righteous or noble cause.  Hitler convinced millions of Germans that they were the superior race whose destiny to rule the world was being undermined by Jews.  Islamic terrorists are convinced that Muslims are superior and that the more infidels they kill in this life, the better their life will be in the next.  All these men fought and are still fighting because they each believe(d) in their cause.

Sam Harris is arguing that the main cause behind acts of violence on the global stage is irrational belief which, he points out, most often comes in the form of religious beliefs.  Without religious belief, the greedy and mad leaders of the world would call the war and nobody would show up to fight.

You disagree?

Susan

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Posted: 16 January 2006 02:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]  
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Hello Susan

You are trying to turn this debate from Mr. Harris book to 5-year-old repeated drum of this century “terrorism”.  Your word “Greed” cannot narrow down the three most important reasons of 90% of all the human killings and heinous crimes that I mentioned and has been inherited from human generation to generation – it has been and will always will be this way till the end of this world.  Absolutely your word “greed” for all the 3 reasons I mentioned is incorrect and absolutely wrong.  Yes, I agree with Mr. Harris ideology or philosophy by 5% only.  Rest 95% killings and heinous crimes are because of the 3 main reasons I described.

If you or Mr. Harris is trying to preach “Atheisms” and trying to say that Atheism is better than any religion of the world, than you have chosen a very ignorant way of spreading your ideology.  This is only thing I am trying to say.  Atheist also has their believes and ideology with the exception that they don’t believe in one super natural power.

Secondly, I would say that Greed definitely works as a primary motive for crime, but belief in some higher cause is what seduces whole groups of otherwise rational men to commit heinous crimes and participate in wars on a grand scale.  Your theory may work fine when applied to the leaders of such groups, who personally benefit from the spoils of war, but greed on its own does not explain why millions of people will risk their lives and follow one mad leader into war or fly planes into buildings.

Susan, in order to understand this you have to open your window in your upper chamber that I am trying to explain.  If you will keep a steel plate in your upper chamber, it will be very hard for you to understand what I am trying to say.  Yes you are right many of us are following one mad President Bush who is involved in getting all the 3 reasons that I mentioned. 

Islamic terrorists are convinced that Muslims are superior and that the more infidels they kill in this life, the better their life will be in the next.  All these men fought and are still fighting because they each believe(d) in their cause.


This is totally nonsensical and idiotic statement.  There are millions of non-Muslims in the Muslims world today.  All these men are not fighting for this reason; it is your idiotic thinking not theirs. 
Let me ask you two very simple question here:

1) If I will come into your home and kill all your children, brothers and sisters, father and mother, what you will do to me? Above all if you retaliate in your own way using your ideology, but I will call you terrorist or some other criminal name – what will be your reaction? 

2) If any country who will come and invade your Land or country and claim that it is our land given to us by God – what you will do?  If you try to take your land back but some Super World Power help those who occupied your land and give all kind of latest weapons and help to the invading people but not you and kill your people day in and day out.  Above all if any other country try to help you, but that super power threaten that country and stop the whole world not to help you. 
Worse come to worse if that super power and invaders of your land frame people like you using your ideology to gain the 3 objectives that I mentioned, what will be your reaction? What will be the last thing that you can do against them?

I will continue after your reply
Rgds
Kalanag

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Posted: 17 January 2006 12:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]  
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Hello Kanalag ...

A reply to your post can be found under “Specific Comments.”

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