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Posted: 03 January 2009 02:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]  
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Bruce Burleson - 02 January 2009 10:41 PM

Evil, to some degree, may simply be necessary in order for us to develop into what God ultimately wants. Perhaps there is an element of personhood that requires that we be subjected to evil during our development before we reach our destiny. I’m thinking more in terms of the entire human race being subjected to the futility of evil before we can fully become what God wills for us.


Is this simply an excuse for justifying evil because you believe, in some obscure unenlightened way that is incomprehensible to any sane person, that there is a “developmental” reason for evil to exist and that as humans we will some day become enlightened because of it?  After centuries of human suffering and evil, in case after case of horrific instances of spilled blood, immense pain and unending torture, we humans are going to find a prize at the bottom of the cracker jack box?  That evil in and of itself is going to make us more “god-like” and an “improved” version of what we already are?

Bruce, this is an exercise in sadism at a level of rationalization that defies any semblance of sensibilities or morality. Please, tell me you really do not believe this!

Please explain this “logic” of yours to all the billions of people over the course of human history who have been the recipients of evil—who died agonizing deaths and have wasted away by disease; all the people who have starved or frozen to death, been beaten to a bloody pulp, have spent their lives in prisons and dungeons for wrongly accused crimes, for women who have been raped, their genitals mutilated, stoned to death, hung by a noose, and the list of atrocities go on indefinitely…..

A cosmic joke and the epitome of evil all wrapped up in a nice package from God.

[ Edited: 03 January 2009 02:21 PM by zelzo]
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Posted: 03 January 2009 02:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]  
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Because LJ, if I may, and you of course know the drill-the payoff is everlasting life. All one has to do is submit, and all the evil pain and suffering is undone by forever in paradise.

A little shallow and childish IMO but apparently not for people like Bruce.

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Posted: 03 January 2009 02:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]  
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McCreason - 03 January 2009 07:22 PM

Because LJ, if I may, and you of course know the drill-the payoff is everlasting life. All one has to do is submit, and all the evil pain and suffering is undone by forever in paradise.

A little shallow and childish IMO but apparently not for people like Bruce.


I agree and it’s my bad. Silly of me to question that anything called “everlasting life” for the few could ever justify evil and suffering for the many in this life.

Regardless, it leaves such a bad taste in my mouth.  In spite of all of Bruce’s charm (or Rick Warren’s for that matter) would I really want to meet these guys in a dark alley?

I think I’ll just stick with my canine friends.  I know where I stand with them.

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Posted: 03 January 2009 02:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]  
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‘I think I’ll just stick with my canine friends.  I know where I stand with them.’
Sound wisdom and said by Harry Truman also. grin

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‘If ignorance of nature gave birth to gods, knowledge of nature destroys them’

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Posted: 03 January 2009 02:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]  
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lindajean - 03 January 2009 07:18 PM

Bruce, this is an exercise in sadism at a level of rationalization that defies any semblance of sensibilities or morality. Please, tell me you really do not believe this!

It’s just like I’ve been saying for a long time, it’s all S&M. Whip me, beat me, until I am worthy to serve your every desire. Remember this is the same song that Peter Huff sang, he even went so far as to say god created human slavery to help teach us how to serve him better.

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Posted: 03 January 2009 03:25 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]  
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Gad

.... it’s all S&M. Whip me, beat me, until I am worthy to serve your every desire.

Well, if you insist, Gad.

Gad


Remember this is the same song that Peter Huff sang, he even went so far as to say god created human slavery to help teach us how to serve him better.

Peter Huff—-now there’s a guy from my past. A shell of a man.

Bruce, Peter, Rick… (and the list goes on an on)... A Trinity of souls I don’t want to ever meet in a dark alley, so help me, god.

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Posted: 03 January 2009 03:27 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]  
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lindajean - 03 January 2009 07:18 PM

A cosmic joke and the epitome of evil all wrapped up in a nice package from God.

The idea is that we are, individually and collectively, exposed to the consequences of our choices.  The suffering that is in the world, as horrible as it is, will ultimately serve to teach us how to use the gift of our freedom as children of God in the coming ages.  We will have the individual and collective history of this age to shape and guide us.  Since God will wipe away every tear, the horrors that some people have suffered will simply not compare to the experience of the kingdom of God. But the experience of this life will have shaped us to a degree that we will not repeat the same mistakes.

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Posted: 03 January 2009 03:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]  
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Bruce Burleson - 03 January 2009 08:27 PM
lindajean - 03 January 2009 07:18 PM

A cosmic joke and the epitome of evil all wrapped up in a nice package from God.

The idea is that we are, individually and collectively, exposed to the consequences of our choices.  The suffering that is in the world, as horrible as it is, will ultimately serve to teach us how to use the gift of our freedom as children of God in the coming ages.  We will have the individual and collective history of this age to shape and guide us.  Since God will wipe away every tear, the horrors that some people have suffered will simply not compare to the experience of the kingdom of God. But the experience of this life will have shaped us to a degree that we will not repeat the same mistakes.

To justify (or excuse or rationalize) evil now for some future utopia is simply and undeniably immoral, regardless of who is doing the justification.  It’s that simple.

[ Edited: 03 January 2009 03:41 PM by zelzo]
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Posted: 03 January 2009 03:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]  
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sorry—double post
2 in one day!

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Posted: 03 January 2009 04:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]  
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Bruce Burleson - 03 January 2009 08:27 PM
lindajean - 03 January 2009 07:18 PM

A cosmic joke and the epitome of evil all wrapped up in a nice package from God.

The idea is that we are, individually and collectively, exposed to the consequences of our choices.  The suffering that is in the world, as horrible as it is, will ultimately serve to teach us how to use the gift of our freedom as children of God in the coming ages.  We will have the individual and collective history of this age to shape and guide us.  Since God will wipe away every tear, the horrors that some people have suffered will simply not compare to the experience of the kingdom of God. But the experience of this life will have shaped us to a degree that we will not repeat the same mistakes.

No Bruce. Once again in the coming kingdom of god there will be no sin, death, evil, pain or sadness. Gods does away with them, and you can’t have them even if you wanted to. Therefore experience is irrelevant in heaven.

[ Edited: 03 January 2009 04:10 PM by GAD]
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Posted: 03 January 2009 04:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]  
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Bruce Burleson - 03 January 2009 08:27 PM

The idea is that we are, individually and collectively, exposed to the consequences of our choices.  The suffering that is in the world, as horrible as it is, will ultimately serve to teach us how to use the gift of our freedom as children of God in the coming ages.  We will have the individual and collective history of this age to shape and guide us.  Since God will wipe away every tear, the horrors that some people have suffered will simply not compare to the experience of the kingdom of God. But the experience of this life will have shaped us to a degree that we will not repeat the same mistakes.

What won’t pass through the doors of perception, we call non-sense.

There is a difference between that which is rational and that which is rationalization.

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Posted: 03 January 2009 04:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]  
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Bruce Burleson - 02 January 2009 10:41 PM

. . . And nobody said that he “wants” this evil. Evil, to some degree, may simply be necessary in order for us to develop into what God ultimately wants. Perhaps there is an element of personhood that requires that we be subjected to evil during our development before we reach our destiny. I’m thinking more in terms of the entire human race being subjected to the futility of evil before we can fully become what God wills for us.

To my way of seeing things, Bruce, the good/evil paradigm is a perversion or miscasting of the biological force of pleasure/comfort vs. pain/challenge. Hard-core good/evil visions of morality, such as in traditional religions, are typically little more than crude attempts at shorthand that replace the poetic breadth of nature that can be viewed through science-oriented perspectives.

Nature “uses” pain and pleasure to mold the behavior of her creatures, and your vision of God apparently does something similar.

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Posted: 03 January 2009 05:41 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]  
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Bruce Burleson - 03 January 2009 08:27 PM

The idea is that we are, individually and collectively, exposed to the consequences of our choices.

The consequences of choices have to do with the effects of one’s actions. While we know that sometimes our actions have unintended consequences for ourselves and others, when making moral decisions we must look at consequences as possibilities, not necessarily as certainties. By that I mean there will always be people who inflict grievous suffering on others with little or no consequences to themselves, and there will always be people who suffer greatly without doing any harm to others.  That’s part of life - my answer to the gospel song “Farther Along” is simply to accept the apparent unfairness and move on.

Bruce Burleson - 03 January 2009 08:27 PM

The suffering that is in the world, as horrible as it is, will ultimately serve to teach us how to use the gift of our freedom as children of God in the coming ages.

I can appreciate the idea of learning from one’s suffering. But any claim about an endowed purpose behind suffering must be analyzed scientifically, since that’s a claim about something having real-world existence. There’s no evidence for an endowed purpose, and it’s no different from the hateful claim that suffering is a divine punishment. It’s one thing if someone claims that his gods have a purpose for himself, but when the person claims that his gods have purposes for others, it’s only right that others demand evidence for such purposes.

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Posted: 04 January 2009 06:37 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]  
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GAD - 03 January 2009 09:04 PM

Once again in the coming kingdom of god there will be no sin, death, evil, pain or sadness. Gods does away with them, and you can’t have them even if you wanted to. Therefore experience is irrelevant in heaven.

God will do away with evil in at least two ways: 1) he will remove the source of the temptation to do evil (satanic forces); and 2) he will remove the compulsion to lean toward evil that is in people.  The second prong is accomplished, at least in part, by the shaping of the character of his children, which is accomplished by what we experience in this life. So, experience in this age is not irrelevant to our experience in the next.

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Posted: 04 January 2009 06:41 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]  
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lindajean - 03 January 2009 08:25 PM

Bruce, Peter, Rick… (and the list goes on an on)... A Trinity of souls I don’t want to ever meet in a dark alley, so help me, god.

I’m really puzzled by this. You don’t agree with my theology, so you think I’m going to harm you?  This is an irrational fear.

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