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To Byron (aka “SkepticX”)
Posted: 12 January 2009 01:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]  
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SkepticX - 12 January 2009 02:17 PM
Jefe - 12 January 2009 01:35 PM

Hmmm.  It is possible that I’m guilty as charged ...


Probably not. There’s an important difference between requiring a specific answer vs. requiring an answer that isn’t bullshit (i.e. isn’t one that requires a compromise of one’s intellectual integrity and violates reason and logic and science).

The real problem is that religion requires the bullshit answer. It’s a fault with religion, of course, not with maintaining proper standards of logic and reason and epistemology and such.

Still no example of cowardice provided.

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Posted: 12 January 2009 01:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]  
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McCreason - 12 January 2009 02:29 PM

Faith is indeed the bullshit answer or provides for them. Science has a methodology to weed out bullshit answers. Faith persues bullshit answers and then promotes them as factual.

How convienent. Wherever something is questioned and requires proof, just take it on faith. Because people tell you too. And they have told you for a few thousand years now.

Thats what I mean by intellectuall lazy, even moreso than cowardice.

It takes some energy to require, provide, and try and understand evidence. Only emotion to accept what clergy and books of myth say.

Still no specific example of cowardice.

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Posted: 12 January 2009 01:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]  
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Bruce Burleson - 12 January 2009 06:09 PM

I wasn’t going to church or studying the Bible seriously when I had my first experience.

Oh, what is as rare as a guy who has had his “first experience”? And is “telling tales out of school”?

[ Edited: 12 January 2009 01:24 PM by Traces Elk]
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Posted: 12 January 2009 01:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]  
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goodgraydrab - 12 January 2009 04:29 PM

It’s not only possible that you have changed your mind about more things than anyone here, it is true. That’s because you perceive that there is an actual center, a happy median of sorts, a meeting place where we could all hold on to equally credible ideals and still maintain ones faith. But there is no credible center. The God piece center of your puzzle will never be completed, while we beckon you with:

“Failing to fetch me at first keep encouraged,
Missing me one place search another,
I stop some where waiting for you”
                              ww

I shan’t say that you are an “ideological coward”, Bruce, only that you are lost.

I have no problem with that, because “lost” is another way of saying that another person isn’t where you are. We may both think of the other as “lost”, but that’s the same as saying we disagree on our location. You know where you are, and I know where I am. No cowardice on either side.

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Posted: 12 January 2009 01:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]  
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Bruce Burleson - 12 January 2009 06:20 PM
SkepticX - 12 January 2009 02:17 PM
Jefe - 12 January 2009 01:35 PM

Hmmm.  It is possible that I’m guilty as charged ...


Probably not. There’s an important difference between requiring a specific answer vs. requiring an answer that isn’t bullshit (i.e. isn’t one that requires a compromise of one’s intellectual integrity and violates reason and logic and science).

The real problem is that religion requires the bullshit answer. It’s a fault with religion, of course, not with maintaining proper standards of logic and reason and epistemology and such.

Still no example of cowardice provided.

How about “telling tales out of school”?

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Posted: 12 January 2009 01:40 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]  
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Salt Creek - 12 January 2009 05:13 PM
Bruce Burleson - 12 January 2009 01:33 PM

We simply do not know what dimensions lie beyond this one.

Therefore, we do not claim knowledge. Yet you do. You say you had a personal visit from some entity.

Yes, I say I’ve had a visit, but what I claim from that visit is faith, not knowledge. I’ve consistently made a distinction, not that it matters to you. 

Salt Creek - 12 January 2009 05:13 PM

A dead horse, by my reckoning. You’ve got horsemeat. You’re beating a dead horse. By any other name it is beating the meat.

Well, that’s a horse of a different color,isn’t it? Beating a dead horse is cowardice, to be sure. But eating a dead horse is acceptable cuisine in France. So just look at it as me preparing a meal for my friends.

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Posted: 12 January 2009 01:45 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]  
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Jefe - 12 January 2009 06:27 PM
Bruce Burleson - 12 January 2009 06:09 PM

Does that make me unreasonable?

Please quote where I called you unreasonable before defending yourself against the accusation.

That was my interpretation of your post #8. If I wrongly interpreted that and you don’t think I am unreasonable, then I have no argument with you.

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Posted: 12 January 2009 01:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]  
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Bruce Burleson - 12 January 2009 06:12 PM

Yes. Here’s a summary: 1) have a faith/trust relationship with God through Jesus (which involves communing with him, studying his word, praying, worship, living by his teachings, etc.); 2) love one another as he loved us; 3) tell others about him.

It’s the last one that I find disturbing. In this day and age, there is hardly a place where people are living isolated from communication with the rest of the known world and/or don’t have TVs to order holy water for healing consumption.  It’s the same principle as getting annoying phone calls at dinner time from sales people. If I wanted what you’re selling, I’d come down to your store (church). And I hardly go a weekend without a Jehovah Witness knocking at my door. What’s up with that? And of course you know my views on imposing religious views through government. Perhaps you should scrap #3 in line with your new NOMB gospel, which by the way, I was happy to hear and therefore am more inclined to agree with your “cowardice” defense, and to liken you more to Linus than the Cowardly Lion.

[ Edited: 12 January 2009 01:53 PM by goodgraydrab]
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Posted: 12 January 2009 01:47 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]  
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Salt Creek - 12 January 2009 06:26 PM

How about “telling tales out of school”?

Why are you even here?  You already have your 5000. It’s hard to carry on a serious conversation when Granddaddy is over in the corner playing with himself.

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Posted: 12 January 2009 01:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]  
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goodgraydrab - 12 January 2009 06:46 PM

It’s the last one that I find disturbing. In this day and age, there is hardly a place where people are living isolated from communication with the rest of the known world and/or don’t have TVs to order holy water for healing consumption.  It’s the same principle as getting annoying phone calls at dinner time from sales people. If I wanted what you’re selling, I’d come down to your store (church). And I hardly go a weekend without a Jehovah Witness knocking at my door. What’s up with that?

Yes, I think the telling part has been done, at least in this country. That was part of the commission 2000 years ago, and it’s been fulfilled for the most part. I can see how we’ve gone past evangelizing and just become annoying. At least here you can ignore me anytime you want. But you can’t stay away, can you?

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Posted: 12 January 2009 01:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]  
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‘Yes, I say I’ve had a visit, but what I claim from that visit is faith, not knowledge’

Have you ever considered that you had an illusion? A hallucination?

Thats what a skeptic would consider first. Carl Sagan talks about this a lot in his book ‘The Demon Haunted World’ Have you read it? If not you should.

Many people say they have been abducted by space aliens. Do you believe them? Why or why not?

You do understand that the human brain can play all kinds of tricks on us don’t you? From chemical inbalances to fluctuations in oxygen. Look what we think we experience when we dream.

Have you then accepted your ‘visit’ without anymore consideration? Are you 100% convinced it was supernatural? Have you seen psychiatrists or psychologists about it?

See how many questions a skeptic can come up with in just a minute or two.

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Posted: 12 January 2009 02:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 42 ]  
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McCreason - 12 January 2009 06:53 PM

Have you ever considered that you had an illusion? A hallucination?

Many people say they have been abducted by space aliens. Do you believe them? Why or why not?

You do understand that the human brain can play all kinds of tricks on us don’t you?

Have you then accepted your ‘visit’ without anymore consideration? Are you 100% convinced it was supernatural? Have you seen psychiatrists or psychologists about it?

Yes, I have considered that it was an illusion or hallucination, but have concluded that it was not. I have no idea what to think about alien abductions - no opinion whatsoever. Yes, I understand about brain chemistry.  I am not 100% convinced that the experience was valid, but believe that it was. I have spoken to a psychologist about it. After 37 years, I still believe it was an encounter with God.

But here is an example of why I can’t be 100% sure, and the matter must remain in the realm of faith:

http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/01/12/decision.making/index.html

[ Edited: 12 January 2009 02:05 PM by Ecurb Noselrub]
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Posted: 12 January 2009 02:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 43 ]  
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Bruce Burleson - 12 January 2009 06:52 PM

I can see how we’ve gone past evangelizing and just become annoying. At least here you can ignore me anytime you want. But you can’t stay away, can you?

Hey, this an Atheist forum, remember? You’re the invader here. Besides, I like berating Theists, although lately we’re getting some real doozies calling themselves Atheists. Also, there’s been signs of progress, and to be clear, I’m not the one changing my mind.

Your visitation may very well have been an encounter with a high concentration of electro-magnetism in the atmosphere. With the flip of the magnetic poles and resultant pockets, it’s likely we’re going to see even greater numbers of nuts running around.

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Posted: 12 January 2009 02:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 44 ]  
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‘I’m sorry, McCreason, but I have never told you that I fear death or morality without God.’

Sure you have. We have discussd death and morality many times here and you think we need God for an explanation for both.

What you seek is answers to those questions. What you fear is not having them. Thats what ‘faith’ brings to all people.

It’s like a homophobe saying he does not fear homosexuals. Well he sure does. He fears the change in perception of lifestyle and acceptance and equality. He fears for his worldview not being absolute.

You have told us all Bruce, whether you understand that you have or not.

You are not unique. I have heard your storyline along with your ‘visit’ from dozens of other people in my life. The story is always the same. Just like the similarities of the stories of alien abductee’s. They are memes. Your brain has a very old virus. The same one billions of people have spread throughout this planet.

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Posted: 12 January 2009 02:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 45 ]  
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‘I have no idea what to think about alien abductions - no opinion whatsoever’

How is that possible? These people may have had a very similar occurrence to what you had and yet you cannot or do not even make the time to consider it?

You think yours alone was special and unique, and you care not about anyone elses. You have just made up your mind it was God, because deep inside you wanted to believe that. Isn’t that obvious to you?

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