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This is what we need to fear
Posted: 21 January 2009 10:08 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 46 ]  
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bigredfutbol - 21 January 2009 02:37 PM
GAD - 21 January 2009 02:16 PM
bigredfutbol - 21 January 2009 01:32 PM

Oh, ALL the Jews are responsible now?  Wonderful.  Hey, Rabbi Kahane was from Brooklyn—let’s kick all Jews out of the USA.

One nice thing about thread like this is that we find out what some of you really think.

I said no such thing. I ask you if that is not what the Jews believe. What’s even nicer is watching people make shit up about other people to justify their own beliefs.

I don’t what “THE Jews” believe, and neither do you. 

Seriously, when you start to talk about “THE Jews” and compare them to the SS, you really need recognize that you’re in a hole, and then you need to resolve to stop digging.

Read the fucking OT. The Jews believe that god will put them in control of the world. His human enforcers of his will on earth, hence my play on words with the SS crack!

Your not even trying to have a discussion, your just looking for anything you can use to demonize me to avoid having to have an argument.

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Posted: 21 January 2009 10:13 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 47 ]  
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GAD - 21 January 2009 03:08 PM
bigredfutbol - 21 January 2009 02:37 PM
GAD - 21 January 2009 02:16 PM
bigredfutbol - 21 January 2009 01:32 PM

Oh, ALL the Jews are responsible now?  Wonderful.  Hey, Rabbi Kahane was from Brooklyn—let’s kick all Jews out of the USA.

One nice thing about thread like this is that we find out what some of you really think.

I said no such thing. I ask you if that is not what the Jews believe. What’s even nicer is watching people make shit up about other people to justify their own beliefs.

I don’t what “THE Jews” believe, and neither do you. 

Seriously, when you start to talk about “THE Jews” and compare them to the SS, you really need recognize that you’re in a hole, and then you need to resolve to stop digging.

Read the fucking OT. The Jews believe that god will put them in control of the world. His human enforcers of his will on earth, hence my play on words with the SS crack!

Your not even trying to have a discussion, your just looking for anything you can use to demonize me to avoid having to have an argument.

It’s impossible to have a discussion with someone who ignores what I say and keeps regurgitating the same crap over and over again.

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Posted: 21 January 2009 10:36 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 48 ]  
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teuchter - 21 January 2009 02:32 PM

Let me take a stab.  70% of British Muslims do NOT approve of such bombings.

And of the 30%, is that entirely religious, or is that at least partially political, or did anyone bother to ask?

It is nearly impossible to draw a neat boundary between religion and politics, and even more so in the case of Islam. And that’s part of my point: people whose lives are largely ruled by their religious beliefs will also conduct politics in the same way. Hence, they are not to be trusted to comply with the rules of the democratic game. Besides, you seem to believe we should applaud British muslims because a majority of them did not approve of the bombings. My point is that 70% is a scant majority for such an appalling act, even discounting those who said they disapproved out of hypocrisy.

It should be obvious to anyone that the central tenets of the muslim faith are incompatible with democracy. Why you insist on denying this is beyond me.

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Posted: 21 January 2009 10:43 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 49 ]  
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bigredfutbol - 21 January 2009 03:13 PM
GAD - 21 January 2009 03:08 PM
bigredfutbol - 21 January 2009 02:37 PM
GAD - 21 January 2009 02:16 PM
bigredfutbol - 21 January 2009 01:32 PM

Oh, ALL the Jews are responsible now?  Wonderful.  Hey, Rabbi Kahane was from Brooklyn—let’s kick all Jews out of the USA.

One nice thing about thread like this is that we find out what some of you really think.

I said no such thing. I ask you if that is not what the Jews believe. What’s even nicer is watching people make shit up about other people to justify their own beliefs.

I don’t what “THE Jews” believe, and neither do you. 

Seriously, when you start to talk about “THE Jews” and compare them to the SS, you really need recognize that you’re in a hole, and then you need to resolve to stop digging.

Read the fucking OT. The Jews believe that god will put them in control of the world. His human enforcers of his will on earth, hence my play on words with the SS crack!

Your not even trying to have a discussion, your just looking for anything you can use to demonize me to avoid having to have an argument.

It’s impossible to have a discussion with someone who ignores what I say and keeps regurgitating the same crap over and over again.

You made a statement about Judaism, I ask you about their beliefs, you answered with some bullshit? Whatever.

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Posted: 21 January 2009 11:08 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 50 ]  
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Piero - 21 January 2009 03:36 PM

It should be obvious to anyone that the central tenets of the muslim faith are incompatible with democracy. Why you insist on denying this is beyond me.

There are lots of people in America who hold beliefs which are incompatible with democracy.  Their ideas are to be fought and discredited, and the institutions and tenets of democracy must always be defended.  However, I don’t think that millions of my fellow citizens should be exiled, or that immigrants with bad ideas should be deported.  Here’s another idea which is incompatible with democracy—thoughtcrime.

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Posted: 21 January 2009 11:10 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 51 ]  
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GAD - 21 January 2009 03:43 PM
bigredfutbol - 21 January 2009 03:13 PM
GAD - 21 January 2009 03:08 PM
bigredfutbol - 21 January 2009 02:37 PM
GAD - 21 January 2009 02:16 PM
bigredfutbol - 21 January 2009 01:32 PM

Oh, ALL the Jews are responsible now?  Wonderful.  Hey, Rabbi Kahane was from Brooklyn—let’s kick all Jews out of the USA.

One nice thing about thread like this is that we find out what some of you really think.

I said no such thing. I ask you if that is not what the Jews believe. What’s even nicer is watching people make shit up about other people to justify their own beliefs.

I don’t what “THE Jews” believe, and neither do you. 

Seriously, when you start to talk about “THE Jews” and compare them to the SS, you really need recognize that you’re in a hole, and then you need to resolve to stop digging.

Read the fucking OT. The Jews believe that god will put them in control of the world. His human enforcers of his will on earth, hence my play on words with the SS crack!

Your not even trying to have a discussion, your just looking for anything you can use to demonize me to avoid having to have an argument.

It’s impossible to have a discussion with someone who ignores what I say and keeps regurgitating the same crap over and over again.

You made a statement about Judaism, I ask you about their beliefs, you answered with some bullshit? Whatever.

Yeah, whatever.  I made statements about JUDAISM.  You made blanket statements about THE JEWS.  I pointed out the crucial distinction between a belief system or religiously-defined group versus individual self-described members for you—again.  You failed to grasp that crucial distinction—AGAIN.  “Some bullshit” indeed.

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Posted: 21 January 2009 12:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 52 ]  
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bigredfutbol - 21 January 2009 04:08 PM

There are lots of people in America who hold beliefs which are incompatible with democracy.  Their ideas are to be fought and discredited, and the institutions and tenets of democracy must always be defended.  However, I don’t think that millions of my fellow citizens should be exiled, or that immigrants with bad ideas should be deported.  Here’s another idea which is incompatible with democracy—thoughtcrime.

I would heartily agree, were it not for the fact that fighting and discrediting Islam is not to be recommended, unless you have some particular reason why you would want to die young.

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Posted: 21 January 2009 12:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 53 ]  
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Piero - 21 January 2009 05:46 PM
bigredfutbol - 21 January 2009 04:08 PM

There are lots of people in America who hold beliefs which are incompatible with democracy.  Their ideas are to be fought and discredited, and the institutions and tenets of democracy must always be defended.  However, I don’t think that millions of my fellow citizens should be exiled, or that immigrants with bad ideas should be deported.  Here’s another idea which is incompatible with democracy—thoughtcrime.

I would heartily agree, were it not for the fact that fighting and discrediting Islam is not to be recommended, unless you have some particular reason why you would want to die young.

Speaking out against injustice, intolerance and irrationality is too important to be left to others.  And while I hope to live many more years on this moral coil, it’s been awhile since I’ve been called “young”.

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Posted: 21 January 2009 01:41 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 54 ]  
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Can we get back to the original post:

Muslims will destroy our history, our art, and our culture.  This is why they SHOULD GET OUT OF EUROPE NOW!

So the question was, should all adherents to a particular religious viewpoint be deported because some adherents to that viewpoint do unacceptable things?

There are three reasons why this is a bad idea:

1.  Count heads.  If people with unacceptable religious views are going to get exiled, I’ll see all of your on the first boat.  But this is a practical, not principled, objection.

2.  If someone says “I am a catholic,” you know something, but not very much about that person.  You don’t know whether that person is Dorothy Day, founding the progressive Catholic Workers organization, or fuckwit extraordinaire Bill Donohue of the Catholic League.  Does anyone here want to be responsible as an atheist for every remark Nulono has made.  There are atheists who are Ayn Rand Objectivist free market psychos, and there are atheists who are socialists;  I doubt that the Aynists want to be responsible for what I say, and I sure as hell don’t want to be responsible for what they say.  So, I am prepared to attack catholicism, and the pope and his pedophile pals, but I am not prepared to attach X for being a catholic;  if X opposes reproductive freedom, I will engage X; if X opposes torture, I will join with X.  Which brings me to point 3:

3.  Religion isn’t the most important thing in the world.  It is an enabling element of modern society, and in its present form itself a result of modern society.

V.I. Lenin made it clear that not even the Bolsheviks regarded religion as the principal cause of oppression in the world.  In a way, its like complaining about a cops hand-cuffs while he’s beating the crap out of you with a nightstick.  Yeah, the cuff’s aren’t good, but let’s look at the whole picture.

So I was perfectly happy that Philip and Daniel Berrigan were on my side with respect to Viet Nam and nuclear proliferation;  I would be equally disgusted by GW Bush if I found out he was an atheist.

So if the guy who said this can subordinate attacking the religious to accomplish larger goals, I guess I can too:

As such, [Marxism] is as relentlessly hostile to religion as was the materialism of the eighteenth-century Encyclopaedists or the materialism of Feuerbach. This is beyond doubt. But the dialectical materialism of Marx and Engels goes further than the Encyclopaedists and Feuerbach, for it applies the materialist philosophy to the domain of history, to the domain of the social sciences. We must combat religion—that is the ABC of all materialism, and consequently of Marxism. But Marxism is not a materialism which has stopped at the ABC. Marxism goes further. It says: We must know how to combat religion, and in order to do so we must explain the source of faith and religion among the masses in a materialist way. The combating of religion cannot be confined to abstract ideological preaching, and it must not be reduced to such preaching. It must be linked up with the concrete practice of the class movement, which aims at eliminating the social roots of religion. Why does religion retain its hold on the backward sections of the town proletariat, on broad sections of the semi-proletariat, and on the mass of the peasantry? Because of the ignorance of the people, replies the bourgeois progressist, the radical or the bourgeois materialist. And so: “Down with religion and long live atheism; the dissemination of atheist views is our chief task!” The Marxist says that this is not true, that it is a superficial view, the view of narrow bourgeois uplifters. It does not explain the roots of religion profoundly enough; it explains them, not in a materialist but in an idealist way. In modern capitalist countries these roots are mainly social.

The deepest root of religion today is the socially downtrodden condition of the working masses and their apparently complete helplessness in face of the blind forces of capitalism, which every day and every hour inflicts upon ordinary working people the most horrible suffering and the most savage torment, a thousand times more severe than those inflicted by extra-ordinary events, such as wars, earthquakes, etc. “Fear made the gods.” [...]

No educational book can eradicate religion from the minds of masses who are crushed by capitalist hard labour, and who are at the mercy of the blind destructive forces of capitalism, until those masses themselves learn to fight this root of religion, fight the rule of capital in all its forms, in a united, organised, planned and conscious way.

Does this mean that educational books against religion are harmful or unnecessary? No, nothing of the kind. It means that Social-Democracy’s atheist propaganda must be subordinated to its basic task—the development of the class struggle of the exploited masses against the exploiters.

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Posted: 21 January 2009 02:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 55 ]  
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Is Lenin just cleverly hiding an erection in that picture?

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Posted: 21 January 2009 03:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 56 ]  
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Bigredfutbol and Teuchter: I’ll try to make my position clear. I am in favour of democracy, equal opportunities, peaceful coexistence and pluralism. However, extending those ideals to those who would destroy them is suicidal. Take, for example, the case of Ayaan Hirsi Ali, a Dutch member of parliament forced into exile because of continuous threats to her life, or the case of Theo Van Gogh, brutally murdered for making a film against the oppression of women in Islam. You may argue that it is unfair to blame muslims collectively for the actions of a few “rogue” elements. But I’m sure you can suggest no reliable screening method to determine who is a “rogue” muslim and who is not. Meanwhile, the simple truth is that in any country where there is a sizable muslim community, people will be forced into silence out of fear. Maybe 99% of them are peaceful, but people will still fear them because it takes just one fanatic to murder you. It is happening right now even in the USA: remember the Mohammed cartoons fiasco? How many American newspapers published them? Do I hear “none”? And I won’t even mention Salman Rushdie, because every time I remember him my blood boils, not so much because of the islamic fatwa issued against him, but because of the unbelievable cowardice of the West.

Islam is not like any other religion or ideology. Maybe there are a few Christians out there that would condone the execution of those who work on the Sabbath, but my guess is they are insignificantly few. By contrast, there are millions of muslims who would have gladly killed the cartoonists that “offended” their prophet. The West and the islamic countries have widely different histories, so it is fallacious to equate their religious beliefs and practices.

Suppose there is a strong muslim community in your town, and suppose many of the newborn girls are subject to clitoridectomy (the real horror behind the mendacious terminology of “female circumcision”). What would you do? Or suppose the muslim community leaders file a complaint against your children’s school because the history textbook depicts the prophet Mohammed. Or suppose your meetings at work have to be rescheduled because you muslim colleagues have to face Mecca and pray five times a day. When I was studying, one of my classmates was a muslim. He would suddenly lay a mat on the floor and start praying, loud and clear, so the class had to be suspended until he was finished. I was amazed: why should we have to adapt to his customs? Well, clearly because the lecturer dind not want to get into legal trouble: had he told the student to leave the room, he might have been sued.

I am not advocating the deportation of muslims. It would be ethically wrong and practically impossible. I do, however, believe that muslims are given far too much leeway, even when their behaviour contradicts everything that Western societies have managed to achieve since the Enlightenment. It should be obvious that religious beliefs have no bearing on legal rights, but so far Western authorities haver been more that ready to concede muslims privileges, sometimes out of sheer stupidity (cultural relativism, for example), sometimes out of abject fear.

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Posted: 22 January 2009 05:38 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 57 ]  
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Piero - 21 January 2009 08:58 PM

But I’m sure you can suggest no reliable screening method to determine who is a “rogue” muslim and who is not.


Much like “rogue” humans who violate the social contract, sometimes egregiously.

Or do you think you have such a screening process for other humans, which would then make Muslims unique for the lack of such a screening method?

Byron

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Posted: 22 January 2009 05:52 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 58 ]  
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Piero - 21 January 2009 08:58 PM

.

I am not advocating the deportation of muslims. It would be ethically wrong and practically impossible. I do, however, believe that muslims are given far too much leeway, even when their behaviour contradicts everything that Western societies have managed to achieve since the Enlightenment. It should be obvious that religious beliefs have no bearing on legal rights, but so far Western authorities haver been more that ready to concede muslims privileges, sometimes out of sheer stupidity (cultural relativism, for example), sometimes out of abject fear.

Two things:

1)  The original poster WAS advocating the deportation of Muslims.  More than deportation, actually, since she didn’t specify Muslim immigrants.  Second- and third-generation Muslims, as well as Indigenous Muslims, were not excepted from the discussion.  So I wasn’t making that up or bringing a strawman into the discussion.

2)  Ultimately, you seem to be arguing that secular Western democracies seem to have lost their nerve and are far too tentative and fearful about defending our own values—if we even know what they are anymore.  You’ll get no argument from me on that count.  Maybe we need to focus more on strengthening our own commitment to our values and beliefs,  first by knowing what they are and then by being much more vigorous in defending and defining the institutions and culture of inclusive secular democracy.  This seems to me to be a much better, and more heroic, strategy than screening a broadly-defined group of human beings out of fear and inability to fight back.  Democracy has ALWAYS had enemies, and it always will.  There will always be people without AND within who believe things which are fundamentally contrary to democratic values.  The key is not to hide from those people or to keep them at bay.  The key is for citizens and civic society to stand firm.  Otherwise we’re just Weimer Germany weakly and futily fending off the inevitable.

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Posted: 22 January 2009 06:39 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 59 ]  
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Bigredfutbol, I agree with you. I was not defending the original poster’s position, but only trying to present arguments in favour of a more decisive stance on the part of Western authorities. So your point 2 is spot on as far as I am concerned, except for one detail: consider, for example, the problem of crime. It is obviously rooted in inequality, marginalisation, etc. So a radical solution would involve a major change in an economic structure that breeds inequality and marginalisation. Does that mean we should do away with our police force? By the same token, concerning muslim immigration, should we sit on the fence until we’ve had time to focus on our commitment to our values and beliefs?

SkepticX, surely you can see the difference between your garden-variety criminal and a religiously motivated terrorist. Even members of a Nazi party are different, because they can be fought with the usual legal and political weapons, whereas members of a religious creed could be, but are not. And you must acknowledge that muslim immigrants are, because of their creed, intrinsically inimical to the values of secular democracies.

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Posted: 22 January 2009 07:20 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 60 ]  
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I certainly would not advocate eliminating police forces, although I would like to see a move away from the paramilitary approach of recent years back to a more traditional “neighborhood constable” approach.  Coupled with other measures, to be sure.

[ Edited: 23 January 2009 08:15 AM by bigredfutbol]
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