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Muslim Outrage???
Posted: 08 February 2006 05:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]  
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[quote author=“mudfoot”][quote author=“Thomas Orr”]
4. I would protect my own turf at home by reinforcing secular laws of the country. In particular, every Church preacher would need to have a license to preach, and the license would be immediately revoked for any stupid or irresponsible sermon deemed “politically inflamatory”. I would not be afraid to let the courts oversee the entire process, the main goal being to strike at the “fifth column”. I would take the opportunity to challenge some of the Islamic laws in American courts and show the Islam world that their Allah is not going to win with American people.

You would turn the US into an atheistic, socialist dictatorship?

Would we call you “Uncle Tom”?

Stalin or Mao would be better at pacifying Islam overseas than the Neocons, but freedom of conscience works for us at home just fine.

1. They wouldn’t call me “Uncle Tom”. The specific job in question is for the General Attorney. Do you volunteer for the post? “Uncle StrongFoot” sounds just fine grin

2. We arrest people for trips overseas, we have to take our shoes off at the airport. Charities are deemed to be terrorist organizations for sending money to the wrong places. Why not face the devil and demand that Church officials (I mean some preachers at mosques but warning Pat Robertson to keep his language in check wouldn’t hurt either) do not inflame the public and do not act against our interest? I am not advocating an atheist state. Let them pray (let’s make sure that they pray for us to win and not for Osama Bin Laden) and stay away from politics.

Anyway, of course this is exaggeration. But if I found evidence of any wrongdoing or just wrongsaying in a mosque I would take it to the Congress and didn’t stop until the Congress take some action. My appeal to patriotism and demonizing the danger of doing nothing would be justified. Wouldn’t it be better than all that zero-tolerance in schools nonsense? Isn’t it better to shut the mosque clerk (and get him deported) than arresting kids for pointing at each other imaginary guns? Or take some other imbalances. We can take to court Swiss banks for the Jewish money from the WW II but we don’t have the guts to take to court dangerous Islamic freaks for the real harm and danger they present?

On the other hand you are right. The present situation doesn’t warrant such drastic actions. America is relatively safe from Islamofacist danger. Europe, however, has a long way to go.

T.O.

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Posted: 08 February 2006 05:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]  
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Then, T.O., you wouldn’t be Bush, would you. Enforce secular laws in the country.. Bush.. when his entire platform is based on turing the entire population into a rabble of degenerates with faith.

-Andrey

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Posted: 09 February 2006 12:25 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]  
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[quote author=“Andrey”]Then, T.O., you wouldn’t be Bush, would you. Enforce secular laws in the country.. Bush.. when his entire platform is based on turing the entire population into a rabble of degenerates with faith.
-Andrey

grin Yes, but the 5 minutes of imagining myself being Bush was good. Plus we discovered few refreshing things. We have draconian laws (drug laws) to keep imaginary enemy at bay but we cannot bring ourselves together to pass some common sense laws designed to keep dangerous preachers under control.

T.O.

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Posted: 09 February 2006 01:37 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]  
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What’s Europe’s problem is ultimately our problem.

World War III is inevitable in my opinion and I think it’s going to happen relatively soon.

There will probably be a draft is something like these events occur.

And… I’m a 20 year old white male out of college. Atheist.

How ironic that I could end up forced into fighting a religious war.

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Posted: 09 February 2006 07:54 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]  
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On a local radio station I heard a man express a comparison that made sense, he said “We’ve heard a lot about christian priests sexually molesting young children lately, what if a cartoonist depicted Jesus molesting a child?  Would that be acceptable?  It’s the equivalent to depicting Mohammed dressed in suicide bomber apparatus or carrying an explosive device in his turban.”

I thought it was a good point of equivalence and it made me think about my position on these cartoons (print them all!).  After some consideration I realized that no civilized person/organization would print a cartoon of a child being sexually molested - but meanwhile explosives and explosive devices are the very foundation of how we entertain our children.

So let’s take another example Do you believe it is acceptable to print a cartoon with Jesus sitting on a bed inviting, “suffer the little children come to me” and a leering look in his eyes?  Is that an affront to christianity?

Bob

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Posted: 09 February 2006 01:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]  
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that is a brilliant idea too, print that also.. maybe some stupid christians will burn embassies also. hahaha and then maybe the Iraninan president will issue a sympathetic statement.

-Andrey

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Posted: 09 February 2006 02:45 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]  
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Let’s not go down the road of, At what point can we agree that freedom of speech and of the press can be curtailed?  Jesus, the only begotten Son of God, and the Prophet Mohammed, peace be unto him, are both dead.  I don’t care if a cartoonist depicts the two committing unspeakable homosexual acts with each other.  There are no sacred cows!.  We have to get over the idea that freedom of speech and of the press are somehow just perks that we can exercise so long as we are responsible and polite.  We in the West and the Islamic world have to understand that those freedoms are exactly what allowed Western countries to become rich and powerful.  And the lack of those freedoms is precisely the reason that Islamic societies have stagnated.  Excess is natural and nothing to get excited about.  Things even out. I remember thinking that the artist who displayed Jesus, the only begotten Son of God, on a crucifix, sitting in a cup of the artist’s urine, was a bit out of line.  I don’t think so at all anymore.  Bring it on, bring it all on.

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Posted: 09 February 2006 03:02 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]  
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I agree entirely with MJ.He is the most lucid I have read so far here.
Just because we have the right to free speach doesn’t mean that we have the duty to insult others with our free speach.Even when talking among friends,one is carefull and respectfull of the other’s sensitivities if we want the friendship to endure.How can we expect the muslim world to have any feeling of tolerance for us in the West when we lump them all together with terrorists and abuse the most important part of their identity?
No friendship is possible when one ridicules the other,how can peace and understanding be reached unless we start respecting each other?
The supporters of the West consider themselves “enlightened” but I, for one,see very little proof of it in this discourse.

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Posted: 09 February 2006 03:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]  
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How can we expect the muslim world to have any feeling of tolerance for us in the West when we lump them all together with terrorists and abuse the most important part of their identity?

I really think we are past this point.  The reality we are dealing with today is that no matter what we do, we will not ‘pacify’ them, or earn anything like respect.

What you are asking for, in my view, is tolerance of someone who wants me dead.  Not because of who I am, but because of what I represent.  Sorry, but I am not going to bow to the east or anyplace else. 

If the so-called ‘moderate’ muslims, if indeed any actually exist, would show some sense and at least condem the violence and murder in Iraq, then perhaps there might be a basis for what you suggest.  As long as they support the violence with their silence, they get nothing from me but contempt.

It’s just not our fault they are still mired in the stone age.

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Posted: 09 February 2006 03:57 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]  
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[quote author=“3-D Scrabble”]
No friendship is possible when one ridicules the other,how can peace and understanding be reached unless we start respecting each other?

Take a step back and separate people from their ideas.  As people, as human beings, those who identify themselves as Islamic are no better nor worse than those who identify themselves as Western.  But when it comes to the ideas that inform and motivate those two groups, there is no equality.  Islam is an authoritarian ideology that has taken root in peoples whose societies are still tribal and authoritarian.  Islam’s legacy is one of enduring servitude.  I can understand why there is so much unrest in the Islamic world.  They are oppressed.  But they don’t have the distance yet to realize that it is Islam itself that is oppressing them, not the West.  They have yet to realize their Renaissance.  Unfortunately, the West may have to kill a whole lot of them before they get it that we are not going to be their whipping boy, and they have to straighten up their own house.

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Posted: 10 February 2006 01:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]  
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Hey gang,

How can we expect the muslim world to have any feeling of tolerance for us in the West when we lump them all together with terrorists and abuse the most important part of their identity?

What I can expect, is that no one links me to the opinions of others. Free speech, in the form of cartoons, is the responsibility of the Danish paper…and should be responded to with speech…not a general condemnation of the West. Free speech, in the form of a crucifix in urine, should be responded to with speech, not a condemnation of art, atheists or anyone else.

I can expect people to be reasonable….even if they are angry. If I can only expect them to be unreasonable….we will never get along.

Rod

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Posted: 10 February 2006 03:25 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 42 ]  
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I think the last couple of posts have got it exactly right, nice going LLPete and Rod. When we “attack” the Muslims (or whatever repressive group we, i.e., Danish newspapers, encounter) we do it by the best weapon we have at our disposal (and the only weapon that makes any sense to civilized humans) - our capacity for FREE EXPRESSION.  In this attack, we are inviting our “enemies” to respond with something equally reasonable and rational in their own defense.  However, being that they are a severely repressed society deluded by religious nonsense, they react by expressing their anger in ways that are uncivilized and malicious. These “stone age” thinkers only know how to express themselves with violence and threatening behaviour.  The only way to educate them is to continue a campaign to expose their religious madness (and also that of our own people) and thereby finally show them that there is a better way for human communities to survive and to prosper together.

Bob

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Posted: 11 February 2006 10:24 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 43 ]  
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For anyone who hasn’t read it, I recommend—in fact, I beg you to go out and buy a copy of—The Rage and the Pride by Oriana Fallaci. This fearless atheist Italian journalist it set to go on trial in Italy later this year—if she lives, since she is suffering from cancer—for speaking out against Islam. If convicted she faces two years in prison for speaking the truth. If the destruction of the right of free speech spreads from Europe to America, any one of us could face the same fate.

CanZen and the “petes” have it right. There must be no apology for these Islamofascists simply because theirs is a religious and not a strictly political ideology. (Imagine the absurdity of clucking about the “hurt feelings” of Nazis or Klanners!) Encouraging the better Muslims to respond in a rational manner is all well and good and necessary, but rational discussion ends at the point of a gun. And the suppression of free speech is as much a gun pointed in our faces as is the threat of nuclear, biological, chemical and/or EMP attack. I will start “respecting” Islam when they stop screaming for my head and present me with something worthy of respect.

Where I live, in the Northeast, there is currently this horrible leaden silence on the subject (with the exception of certain radio talk shows). The newspapers piously refused to reprint the cartoons “out of respect for Islam”. A town official in the southern part of my state tried raising the Danish flag as a sign of support—only to have it removed a day later by a Politically Correct colleague who scolded him for promoting “hate”. There are signs that some people are starting to wake up to what is happening, but for now apathy reigns. We have to speak out, folks, all of us, because there is no one else to do it. It should not be the place of the politicians to start lighting powder kegs, but for the rest of us—this conflict has been brought here once already and I think we can expect a return visit, and unless we are willing to identify what we are fighting and what is wrong with it we are going to be reduced to just the blind instinct of survival, as MJ said, and yes we need that too but it just won’t be enough.

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Posted: 11 February 2006 10:29 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 44 ]  
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For anyone who hasn’t read it, I recommend—in fact, I beg you to go out and buy a copy of—The Rage and the Pride by Oriana Fallaci. This fearless atheist Italian journalist is set to go on trial in Italy later this year—if she lives, since she has advanced cancer—for denouncing Islam. If convicted she faces two years in prison for speaking the truth. If the destruction of the right of free speech spreads from Europe to America, any one of us could face the same fate.

CanZen and the “petes” have it right. There must be no apology to these Islamofascists simply because theirs is a religious and not a strictly political ideology. (Imagine the absurdity of clucking about the “hurt feelings” of Nazis or Klanners!) Encouraging the better Muslims to respond in a rational manner is all well and good and necessary, but rational discussion ends at the point of a gun. And the suppression of free speech is as much a gun pointed in our faces as is the threat of nuclear, biological, chemical and/or EMP attack. I will start “respecting” Islam when they stop screaming for my head and present me with something worthy of respect.

Where I live, in the Northeast, I still sense this horrible leaden silence on the subject (with the exception of certain radio talk shows). The newspapers piously refused to reprint the cartoons “out of respect for Islam”. A town official in the southern part of my state tried raising the Danish flag as a sign of support—only to have it removed a day later by a Politically Correct colleague who scolded him for promoting “hate”. For now apathy reigns, but there are signs that some people are starting to wake up to what is happening. I work at a bookstore and a couple of people have bought books on Islam and Middle East history and commented how horrified they were at these mobs screaming for the destruction of free speech.

We have to speak out, folks, all of us, because there is no one else to do it. It should not be the place of the politicians to start lighting powder kegs, but for the rest of us—this conflict has been brought here once already and I think we can expect a return visit, and unless we are willing to identify what we are fighting and what is wrong with it we are going to be reduced to just the blind instinct of survival, as MJ said, and yes we need that too but it just won’t be enough.

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