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Posted: 12 May 2009 11:29 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]  
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SkepticX - 12 May 2009 03:12 PM

It’s simply literary criticism. We’re talking about literary characters, after all, and Aslan is quite obviously a simile of Jesus. I’m guessing you already knew that.

Sadly though, much of Humanity has decided to actually buy into the dark and deeply twisted Jesus thing and it does create a whole lot of actual suffering and nastiness.

In any case you’re apparently projecting the histrionics. You’re not getting that from me. I just dropped some analysis into the mix. It does seem that you may be getting worked up, however.

Byron

Yes, I knew that the king of the jungle was a simile of the king of kings.

And you’re right; I shouldn’t have jumped to the conclusion that there was an angry tone in your post. I’ve been called a “babbling idiot” on more than one occasion in this thread, for MY particular literary observation. I should not have assumed that your literary criticism was to be compared to Jack’s amusingly sophomoric name-calling.

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Posted: 12 May 2009 12:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]  
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It happens.

It’s understandable.

No problem.

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Posted: 12 May 2009 12:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]  
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Josh - 12 May 2009 01:25 PM

And now it’s time for Josh’s smirking revenge on Jack.

A pie for a pie!

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“It is time we recognized the boundless narcissism and self-deceit of the saved.” - Sam Harris

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Posted: 12 May 2009 04:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]  
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I think it’s crazy to be a content citizen, put as mildly as I deem reasonable, until the state of the world isn’t one where the people are gullible enough to believe Jesus is coming back soon or the world is ending if something really oddly unexplainable or disastrous occurred.

I realize you need to go forward with your life, but something like this just troubles the shit out of me. I know I don’t directly see it impacting my life much, but this much credulity in the world just makes it a rigged game.

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Posted: 13 May 2009 09:44 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]  
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Josh - 12 May 2009 01:25 PM
Jack’s Smirking Revenge - 09 May 2009 03:45 PM

The words from my hundreds of posts on this forum are but a fraction of everything that I have said in my 31 years on this earth. Are you sure that I haven’t said some other things in the past that would indicate that I am NOT a buffoon or a babbling idiot?

The minute you start promoting superstition as fact, you become a babbling idiot, in spite of any intelligence you may exhibit on other topics.

And now it’s time for Josh’s smirking revenge on Jack.

Or what’s supposed to pass as an attempt at revenge, anyway.

Sorry to rain on your condescending parade, Jack…..but I never once promoted superstition as fact.

Not in this thread, no. In this thread, I misread you. It happens. Good thing I always have an umbrella handy.

You do, however, defend people who promote superstition as fact, and you, ironically enough, do so by employing the same tactics they do, particularly in this instance by watering down the superstition attempting to make it more palatable.

I pointed out that the Santa Claus character made a good role model for kids to emulate.

Pointing it out don’t make it so.

I do NOT promote this story as factual, and my sister-in-law is responsible for my niece’s “brainwashing”, not me. There you go…..happy now?

Not my brainwashed niece, not my brainwashing sister-in-law. I’m content.

The fact that I have to explain this to you…..and the fact that, based on your accusation (completely unsupported by any proof) that I was “promoting superstition as fact”, you would then feel justified in calling me a babbling idiot…..

Fair enough. You’re a babbling idiot for concluding that Jesus was a “good guy,” and for defending people who promote superstition as fact.

I believe that makes you the very thing that you called me.

I’m not immune to drawing the occasional boneheaded conclusion.

Smell that? I LOVE the pleasing aroma of delicious hypocrisy in the morning!

That’s irony, not hypocrisy, you babbling idiot.

Yeah Jack, that Jesus fellow was a real douche rocket! I mean, a great guy would be someone who is willing to lay down his life (let’s say by crucifixion or something) to SAVE people from this “eternal torment”.

People who are willing to lay down their lives don’t beg for pardons.

Further, taking responsibility for others’ actions is not virtuous. It’s idiotic.

But Jesus, according to the story, did nothing of the sort…..right?

Actually, no.

Now, I never claimed that Jesus was the son of God, who literally died for our sins and rose again.

Yeah, I get it.

I only opined that he was a great guy.

Great guys don’t send most of the people who will ever live to eternal torment.

Obviously you don’t think as highly of JC as I do, as indicated by the different angle from which you view this whole “eternal torment” thing.

Same angle. Difference being I’m not looking at it through rosy shades.

We both read the story, right?

Presumably.

I saw a guy who was willing to die to save people from eternal torment.

Apparently you read a different story.

YOU saw a guy who laughs maliciously as he fantasizes about people suffering eternal torment.

“The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked.”

Your negative opinion of Jesus does not seem to take into account that part of the story about the cross.

What does it matter? Lots of people were hung on crosses. What makes Jesus so special?

You know, it IS possible to concede that he was a great guy, WITHOUT having to believe that he was divine (just a thought).

You know, it IS possible to concede that he was an asshole, WITHOUT having to believe he was “divine.” (Just a thought.)

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Posted: 13 May 2009 10:55 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]  
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Ghandi was a greater guy than Jesus, and we spend no time here talking about him. And at least we know for sure that MG was a real person. grin

Jesus was most likely an oppression-redemption or messiah myth Josh. And they are always portrayed as somewhat ‘good’ people. It would not fit the story for them to not be.

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Posted: 13 May 2009 11:49 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]  
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McCreason - 13 May 2009 02:55 PM

Ghandi was a greater guy than Jesus, and we spend no time here talking about him. And at least we know for sure that MG was a real person. grin

Jesus was most likely an oppression-redemption or messiah myth Josh. And they are always portrayed as somewhat ‘good’ people. It would not fit the story for them to not be.

Ghandi inspired Dr. Martin Luther King (who literally changed the direction of our country), didn’t believe in harming or eating animals and never condemned anyone to hell. Three good reasons to put him above Jesus.

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Posted: 13 May 2009 03:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]  
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Jack’s Smirking Revenge - 13 May 2009 01:44 PM

Good thing I always have an umbrella handy.

Good, because you’ll be needing it. Today’s forecast calls for a 100% chance of Josh.

You…..defend people who promote superstition as fact…..by watering down the superstition attempting to make it more palatable.

(sigh) I was not defending people who promote superstition as fact (assuming you mean those with unjustified religious certainty...those who say “I know” instead of “I believe”). A positive literary criticism of the Jesus character in the gospel stories does NOT equal a defense of the intellectually dishonest, and does NOT necessarily equal “watering it down to make it more palatable”.

You’re a babbling idiot for concluding that Jesus was a “good guy,”

I suppose if you ignore everything he said (practicing what he preached, BTW) about loving one another, following the Golden Rule, being a Good Samaritan, avoiding hypocrisy, and not casting stones…..as well as that whole “cross” thing…..then yes, Jack. I’m a babbling idiot for drawing such a conclusion.

...and for defending people who promote superstition as fact.

Saying it more than once don’t make it so.

People who are willing to lay down their lives don’t beg for pardons.

By begging for a pardon, are you referring to when he prayed: “O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me”? Jack, you seemingly have failed to read the REST of Matthew 26:39. The rest of the verse quotes him as saying “nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.” Jesus CHOSE his father’s will, and laid down his life. He didn’t HAVE to.

Further, taking responsibility for others’ actions is not virtuous. It’s idiotic.

I was thinking merciful.....

Great guys don’t send most of the people who will ever live to eternal torment.

Jack, I think the party line is that the people are sending themselves there, and that a “great guy” stepped in and laid down his life to save them. Besides, this “hell” that the Bible speaks of may not even be “eternal” (ask Salathiel, the artist formerly known as Bruce Burleson, for details on that).

...I’m not looking at it through rosy shades.

Neither am I, Jack. However, YOU appear to be looking at it through dark, negatively biased shades.

“The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked.”

Were these the words of Jesus himself? If so, it would seem rather strange coming from a guy who allegedly said things like: “Blessed are the merciful”, “Blessed are the peacemakers”, “Love your enemies”, “Judge not, that ye be not judged”, and “Forgive those who repeatedly offend you”.

What does it matter? Lots of people were hung on crosses. What makes Jesus so special?

Because, Jack, according to the story, Jesus was paying your debt so that you could be saved from being hoisted up on some demon’s pitchfork. The other guys were just paying their own debts. Understand? Or should I read the story to you a little bit slower this time?

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Posted: 13 May 2009 03:25 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]  
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McCreason - 13 May 2009 02:55 PM

Jesus was most likely an oppression-redemption or messiah myth Josh. And they are always portrayed as somewhat ‘good’ people. It would not fit the story for them to not be.

So are you saying that, according to the story, Jesus was at least a somewhat good guy?

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Posted: 13 May 2009 03:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]  
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Josh - 13 May 2009 07:25 PM
McCreason - 13 May 2009 02:55 PM

Jesus was most likely an oppression-redemption or messiah myth Josh. And they are always portrayed as somewhat ‘good’ people. It would not fit the story for them to not be.

So are you saying that, according to the story, Jesus was at least a somewhat good guy?

Nope.  McCreason is saying Jesus is a myth.  You may make up anything you want about a mythical character, and while you may think you’re doing a fine job of it you seem to want us to forget Jesus was made up out of the minds of men.  I’m not skipping Step 1 - Jesus is a myth.

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Posted: 13 May 2009 03:57 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]  
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I think he’s saying we can’t reasonably have a clue when we attribute that kind of value to Jesus.

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Posted: 13 May 2009 07:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 42 ]  
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As with all fictional characters, it’s all about what version of the mythology you’re working with. There’s the canon, in which Jesus is as responsible for the state of nature as God and thus has no one to blame but himself for any and all ugliness in the cosmos he created. According to the canonical version of the Jesus myth he’s ultimately a pretty nasty self-serving bastard to be profoundly punishing his creations for his own doing or rewarding them for lacking the intellectual integrity, self-discipline character to maintain the humility and responsibility required to remain true to sound and honest epistemic standards, and then setting them up for a guilt trip by traipsing down to Earth, provoking his creations in ways in which he must know will result in his crucifixion ... as long as he doesn’t do anything about it of course, and lets them “kill” him. He then just plays dead for a few days and goes into haunting them in a perverse kind of psychological torture, and inflicting them with a nasty guilt trip that compromises their intellectual integrity, divides them and sets them against each other. That’s some pretty goddamn serious super villain shit there!

Get away from the canon and you can spin Jesus into all sorts of characters, which is precisely what each franchise and each believer does, and that Jesus character is constantly remade as believers progress (or regress) through life and as the generations pass. Such is the nature of fictional characters. They are what their readers and fans make them, more or less. There’s a core of identifiable characteristics, but they can vary pretty dramatically, particularly as the character’s fandom grows. Even the canon get compromised fairly soon with popularity and large divisions of fandom branch off from the original.

You know the deal. You just have to stop seeing Jesus as some sort of historical figure. Even if he did exist he’s hardly a real historical figure but rather virtually all mythology with a tiny dash of history mixed in.

Byron

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Posted: 14 May 2009 07:08 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 43 ]  
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Argo - 13 May 2009 07:57 PM

I think he’s saying we can’t reasonably have a clue when we attribute that kind of value to Jesus.

He also said, on more than one occasion, that Ghandi was a better person than Jesus. So he attributed a certain value to Jesus as well (as someone inferior to Ghandi). I can’t help but notice that you haven’t gone out of your way to inform McCreason that HE can’t reasonably have a clue when he opines on how good a guy Jesus was.

And where were you to regale SkepticX with this reality check, during his scathing literary criticism of Jesus? Where were you when Jack called Jesus an asshole, or when Beam opined that Jesus was not as gentle, meek and mild as we might think? All these guys attributed negative values to Jesus without a word from you…..you only seem (correct me if I’m wrong) to feel the need to inform those with a more POSITIVE literary criticism of Jesus that we “can’t reasonably have a clue”. WTF?

[ Edited: 14 May 2009 07:26 AM by Josh]
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Posted: 14 May 2009 08:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 44 ]  
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Sure I can Josh. I can compare the mythological Jesus (and what has been written about the character) to the real Ghandi and say that Ghandi was a better person.

Hell, Apollonius was as good a person as the mythical Jesus, if Appollonius actually even existed.

If a real person called Jesus actually said whats in the beautitudes, would you consider him great and right?

We would all be dead long ago, conquered by other societies and cultures of people.

Not smart, not great and totally nonsensical.

Ghandi’s nonviolent resistence makes more sense.

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Posted: 14 May 2009 08:34 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 45 ]  
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Josh - 12 May 2009 02:01 PM

According to popular mythology, Jesus condemned most of the people who will ever live to eternal torment.

Yeah. Great guy.

Yeah Jack, that Jesus fellow was a real douche rocket! I mean, a great guy would be someone who is willing to lay down his life (let’s say by crucifixion or something) to SAVE people from this “eternal torment”.

Someone willing to “lay down his life” to save people from eternal torment would be psychotic, and pitiable, not by any means “a great guy.”

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