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we need to wake everyone else up from this nightmare!
Posted: 08 February 2006 07:18 PM   [ Ignore ]  
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given the recent events concerning the reprinting of the religious cartoons, i think we could safely say that muslims have the right to be angry or offended, however, anyone has the right to his/her emotions and opinions. when those emotions lead to violent behavior, things have gone too far! responding with arson, murder, and widespread violence is completely unwarranted and dispicable behavior. why should a democratic society that practices free speech have to bend over backwards so as not to offend any religious taboo? this is hypocritical on many levels. many muslims may be accustomed to a religious government ruling by religious law or some interpretation of ‘faith’, however this is thankfully not the way the democratic world works. another aspect of hypocrisy is that muslims demand respect from others for their religion, yet the Koran, the muslim holy book, advocates discrimination and violence against any non-believer.

when one takes a closer look at the two most populous religions in the world, christianity and islam, it becomes obvious that they are not based on peaceful propaganda. both the bible and koran instruct the believer to murder the non-believer. in the book of deutoronomy, it states that if someone “tries to secretly seduce you, saying, let us go and serve other gods,… you must kill him, your hand must the strike first blow in putting him to death”. In the koran, it states that “the unbelievers are like beasts.. deaf, dumb, and blind, they understand nothing” (2:172). “Slay them wherever you find them” 2:190-193. Given that these excerpts come from the ‘holy’ book of the christian and muslim faith, how can anyone make a reasonable claim that these religions are based on peace? peaceful for whom? i consider myself a secular, but spiritual person, and i certainly don’t get a peaceful vibe coming my way from such belligerent ideology!

if you read my earlier post, you will see that i am clearly in favor of cooperation, understanding, and peace. although i can give multiple examples of how religion and it’s followers may preach harmony but practice ignorant, uncivilized, and often violent behavior. isn’t it time that we question the logic of religious doctrine, and move towards human philosophy based on reason, respect and tolerance, and the enlightenment of ourselves and our societies?

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Posted: 09 February 2006 03:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]  
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mindfuli, it appears that you have a total lack of understanding pertaining to Christianity. Perhaps an introductory class on Christianity would be helpful to clear up your notions about violence.

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Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light. Matt 11:28-29

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Posted: 09 February 2006 08:21 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]  
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in reply to champion:  my comment pertains to the fact that christianity (as well as islam) preaches, in its holy book, the need for violence against the non believer.  if you doubt this, why don’t you go look it up yourself in Deutoronomy 13:7-11.  you have told me i need to know christian history better myself, yet i’m quoting from the very book that christianity is based on.  maybe you refute the holy bible’s teachings, and therefore are a non believer yourself?  or maybe you are a practicing christian that can counter that quote with several other peaceful quotes from other parts of the bible?  do you see a pattern here?  there is contradiction and hypocrisy!  all i’m saying is that religion and it’s followers need to take a look at that, and maybe decide if they wish to think and behave like it were the dark ages, which coincidentally was a time of extreme persecution and violence perpetrated by christianity. 

i do not think all religious individuals are inherently evil or bad people.  maybe a little misguided, though.  i study psychology, among other things, and it is obvious why someone would want to be religious.  there is a comforting nature to having your purpose pointed out for you, and to having unanswered questions answered.  there is routine with which is also comforting and familiar.  additionally there is ‘safety in numbers’, which humans have learned throughout millions of years of evolution.  so, there are many supporting reasons for why someone would be religious.  although, there are hardly any good reasons for mindless violence.  over 800 million people have been killed in religious conflict throughout history, and yet many still praise religious thought and ideology!  there is a problem with that.  and if you want me to dig a little deeper, and get to know christianity a little better.. i can uncover even more problematic thought, discriminatory ideas, and barbaric behavior!

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Posted: 09 February 2006 10:10 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]  
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mindfuli, pertaining to Christianity, you’ve shown the intellect of a grade schooler.


Quoting you, “my comment pertains to the fact that christianity (as well as islam) preaches, in its holy book, the need for violence against the non believer.”

Wrong….wrong, wRoNg, WrOnG, WRong, wrONG, WronG….minfuli, you’re so wrong. Unbelievable, what one can find on this board.

Quoting you, “if you doubt this, why don’t you go look it up yourself in Deutoronomy 13:7-11.”
Wrong….wrong, wRoNg, WrOnG, WRong, wrONG, WronG….
mindfuli, sigh….(folks, should I even bother?.....)
mindfuli, OT, Old Covenant, given in antiquity during a time of great wickedness to the Jewish nation to ensure stability and faithfulness to God, part of the law (i.e., first commandment, thou shalt have no other Gods before me), Jesus Christ, New Covenant, fulfillment of the law through grace, now you must love your neighbor as yourself.

Quoting you, “you have told me i need to know christian history better myself, yet i’m quoting from the very book that christianity is based on.”
Wrong….wrong, wRoNg, WrOnG, WRong, wrONG, WronG….
mindfuli, there is a collection of books called the New Testament, which Christianity is based on, along with the books of the OT.
The OT gives the law, which condemns you because you broke God’s commandments. The NT gives redemption and justification by grace through Christ Jesus.

Quoting you, “or maybe you are a practicing christian that can counter that quote with several other peaceful quotes from other parts of the bible?”
Wrong….wrong, wRoNg, WrOnG, WRong, wrONG, WronG….
mindfuli, why should I counter you quote with peaceful quotes. The quote you gave in Duet was fine with me. It was Gods law. The first commandment says, thou shalt have no other Gods before me. To do so would be a sin. Sin is punishable by death. You’ve broken God’s law. Should we now stone you? Too bad, you’re in luck. Because of Jesus Christ and his sacrifice, justification and redemption is offered freely to you, though you shant deserve it. Now instead of stoning you, we can only pray for you (it was much more fun back in antiquity, don’t you agree?) grin

Christianity offers hope for the world, hope for peace. Jesus Christ was the Prince of Peace. Christians must be Christ-like, we not only have to pray for our friends, but we have to love and pray for our enemies!! God give us the grace to do your will…..

There ended the lesson. Mindfuli, don’t worry, I’ll send the check… wink

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Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light. Matt 11:28-29

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Posted: 09 February 2006 11:45 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]  
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Ah yes.  The peace and grace of a fairy tale.  Why, I could just reach out and hug my fairy god mother.  How comforting.  And quaint.  Of course, she doesn’t exist.  Neither does santa claus, regardless of how wonderful that guy was for me growing up.

And that’s the thing, “while I was growing up.”  I’m an adult now and I’ve shed these illusions; I’ve woken up to the real world.

And you want to know what the real miracle is?  I still have an enourmously rewarding life.  Does anyone think these islamic rioters go home at the end of the day and say, “Gosh, honey.  I sure had a great day today.  I’m so happy!”  NOT!!

They live in a fairy-tale world just like christians do.  Ever go to church on sunday?  I have on occassion and never felt so awkward around so many fake people - sleeping in their fairy-tale lives.

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Posted: 09 February 2006 12:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]  
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[quote author=“SitDogmaSit”]Ah yes.  The peace and grace of a fairy tale.  Why, I could just reach out and hug my fairy god mother.  How comforting.  And quaint.  Of course, she doesn’t exist.  Neither does santa claus, regardless of how wonderful that guy was for me growing up.

And that’s the thing, “while I was growing up.”  I’m an adult now and I’ve shed these illusions; I’ve woken up to the real world.

And you want to know what the real miracle is?  I still have an enourmously rewarding life.  Does anyone think these islamic rioters go home at the end of the day and say, “Gosh, honey.  I sure had a great day today.  I’m so happy!”  NOT!!

They live in a fairy-tale world just like christians do.  Ever go to church on sunday?  I have on occassion and never felt so awkward around so many fake people - sleeping in their fairy-tale lives.


There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death. Proverbs 16:25

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Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light. Matt 11:28-29

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Posted: 09 February 2006 12:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]  
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smile  sitdogmasit, nice name, good concept, and i appreciate your comment.  i’ve always wondered if santa claus is just a depiction of jesus in what would’ve been his elderly years..  bringing gifts to those who have ‘been good’- aka,  reinforcing those who have been good christian boys and girls by unknowingly perpetuating the delusional fairy tale of christianity!

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Posted: 09 February 2006 12:16 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]  
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by the way ‘champion’, your quote from proverbs is exactly what i’m talking about!  using your religion in some threatening or intimidating fashion.  not to mention, “in the end..”  we will all die, but some can at least experience a life that exemplifies what it is to be human, not what it is to be a brainwashed robot that threatens others when they don’t follow your same mindless, get on your knees for god, conditioning!

champion, i will further comment on your reply to my first post later.. i need to take some time to separate myself from your flawed (or lack of) logical thinking, your ignorance, and your inept attempt at humor..

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Posted: 09 February 2006 12:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]  
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[quote author=“mindfuli”]:)  sitdogmasit, nice name, good concept, and i appreciate your comment.  i’ve always wondered if santa claus is just a depiction of jesus in what would’ve been his elderly years..  bringing gifts to those who have ‘been good’- aka,  reinforcing those who have been good christian boys and girls by unknowingly perpetuating the delusional fairy tale of christianity!

Good’s got nothing to do with it, this righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ.

And He said to him, why do you call Me good? There is none good but one, that is, God. Mat 19:17

This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. Romans 3:23

Face minfuli, you’re just another ignorant poster on this forum. I do not mean that in a bad way. Some folks are ignorant on a variety of topics. On this forum, Christianity takes a bashing by those who are ignorant about it. They have not a clue about Christianity. They have never really studied it. They only know a few phrases upon which they use as “excuse material” to reject the living Christ and his free gift of salvation. However, every knee shall bow and tongue confess that Jesus is Lord. You can beleed dat.

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Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light. Matt 11:28-29

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Posted: 09 February 2006 12:29 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]  
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[quote author=“mindfuli”]by the way ‘champion’, your quote from proverbs is exactly what i’m talking about!  using your religion in some threatening or intimidating fashion.

Mindfuli….or is it “mindfuli”? You’re continued ignorance pertaining to the gospel of Christ is most disappointing. The death being referred to in Proverbs is SPIRITUAL death. Ya know, I really think you ought to take a class on Christianity. I mean, you’re clueless ole chap. Your gums are flapping but the logic is not there. Its like asking a burger flipper to tune up a high-end automobile. He knows not the technology, a mess will be made. Its like asking a person in the waiting room to step into the operating room and perform the surgery. He knows not the discipline. I realllll mess will be made.

And that is like the posters on this forum, who take everything out of context pertaining to Christianity, have no clue on the scarlet thread of redemption…..(questions?....hee heee), no clue on the meaning on sin, consequences of sin, what the LAW is, how it works, how it pertains to Christ.

Ya see, you wonder why Christians are so happy. Knowledge, Godly knowledge. Seek and you will find, knock and the door will be opened. God gives wisdom liberally to all who ask. God loves the humble and resists the proud.

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Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light. Matt 11:28-29

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Posted: 09 February 2006 12:50 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]  
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[quote author=“mindfuli”]champion, i will further comment on your reply to my first post later.. i need to take some time to separate myself from your flawed (or lack of) logical thinking, your ignorance, and your inept attempt at humor..

Ya I bet. LOL

It will take a while to figure out how to undermine true Christian logic. But take your time. God’s got all the time in the world to clean up your dark heart, fill you with joy, and enlist you into his army. You unfortunately, do not have a lot of time. Time is short. Don’t wait too long.

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Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light. Matt 11:28-29

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Posted: 09 February 2006 02:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]  
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true Christian logic

Now that’s really funny.  Synonymous with “circular argument”.

You may be overjoyed with yourself, champ, but I see it as an example of (self-imposed) “ignorance is bliss”.  It really comes down to a form of denial at this point in your life, champ.

Now, not being ignorant does not necessarily make one not blissful.  Take me, for example.  I love my wife and my kids and find so many areas of my life very rewarding - and it’s all achieved without fairy tales.  You should try it some time.  And, yes - your time is running out so don’t blow it.

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Posted: 09 February 2006 03:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]  
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[quote author=“SitDogmaSit”]

true Christian logic

Now that’s really funny.  Synonymous with “circular argument”.

You may be overjoyed with yourself, champ, but I see it as an example of (self-imposed) “ignorance is bliss”.  It really comes down to a form of denial at this point in your life, champ.

Now, not being ignorant does not necessarily make one not blissful.  Take me, for example.  I love my wife and my kids and find so many areas of my life very rewarding - and it’s all achieved without fairy tales.  You should try it some time.  And, yes - your time is running out so don’t blow it.

But SitDogmaSit, once your wonderful life is over, its over….for good (according to you). I find that a sad way to life.

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Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light. Matt 11:28-29

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Posted: 09 February 2006 04:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]  
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But dude, that’s the way it is for you and me and all living things, past, present and future.  2 + 2 = 4.  Crying about it not equalling 5 doesn’t make it so.  Feeling better if you think 2 + 2 = 5 doesn’t make it so.  And if you read Sam Harris’ book, it may make you utterly blissful and purposeful to think that there is a diamond the size of a refrigerator buried in your back yard, but that still does not make it so, especially if the physical evidence is sorely lacking.

We are utterly fragile and finite beings, but being aware of that doesn’t have to render your life meaningless.  Face it straight up, embrace that reality, find yourself and emerge with a real sense of “being genuine” (sorry - the words for this part are tough to come up with).

Death needs to be seen as a big deal - as the end.  If it just moves you to the “next realm”, death becomes no big deal, and becomes “perfectly maladaptive” to sustaining civilization.  Christianity seems to be just a milder version of islam in this respect, but still has the same potential to treat death very lightly.

The time has come for our world to grow up and put their books of fairy tales on the shelf.  If we actually want to avoid ending all of our wonderful lives, prematurely and all at once, it IS time:

we question the logic of religious doctrine, and move towards human philosophy based on reason, respect and tolerance, and the enlightenment of ourselves and our societies

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Posted: 10 February 2006 03:43 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]  
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hey a couple thoughts on things. 
1st off, i’m not religious but doesn’t Sam Harris seem like what you would imagine the antichrist to be like?  He’s well spoken, handsome, and never gets flustered any time i’ve seen him on tv.  Am I the only one who gets a wierd vibe like that?
Anyway, don’t take that comment literaly, just a funny thought I had.
OK, 1 serious thing I was thinking about was that there’s some faulty arguing going on around here.  It definitely makes a poster look smarter if they have some good basic knowledge of the religious text their bashing, but ignorance of the text doesn’t mean that they’re necessarilly wrong in their skepticism of it. 

Does a person first have to be well versed in the koran to then say that people who believe Muhammad flew to heaven on a winged horse are retarded? 
Or does a person have to have knowledge of every egyptian god before they can say that anybody who believes in Ra is a fruitcake?

I would say it makes a person seem a lot smarter to first know everything about a religion and pick apart exact pieces and go tit for tat with any religious scholar, but it’s not necessarry cause the argument isn’t really about the intricacies of the religion, it’s about all religions being complete flights of fancy as a whole.

So I would just humbly reccomend to skeptics not to get trapped into an argument about specific biblical passages.  I would HOPE that a religious person would win that battle every time.  They BETTER know the bible, they actually believe in that stuff right???
Don’t get hoodwinked into the wrong argument. 

Anyways, just a thought.  I’m almost done with the book, it’s pretty damn good.  I hope the ending is better than the one in the NT, that ending was a buzzkill!

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Posted: 10 February 2006 04:20 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]  
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Mac, welcome to the gang.

I’ve met Sam and he’s just as “unflusterable” in person. Hope you find something of interest in these threads.

Rod

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