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EU Apologizes & Rebukes Danes
Posted: 11 February 2006 10:57 PM   [ Ignore ]  
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[quote author="From the article"]
The agreement, according to Ihsanoglu, will mean a formal rebuke by the U.N. and EU of the Danish paper Jyllands-Posten for publishing the offensive cartoons.

The statement, he added, stresses that divine religions and religious symbols must be respected, and that freedom of speech must not be taken so far as to desecrate religions.

 

This is ghastly.

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Posted: 12 February 2006 02:43 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]  
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I agree.  Substitute “Zeus”, “flat-earth”, or “fairy tales” for “divine religions”.  Anyone know if the UN or EU accepts letters to the editor?  Oh, and “www.desecratereligion.com” is available.  Anyone interested?

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Posted: 12 February 2006 10:35 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]  
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Being chastized for “desecrating” non-existent “divine” beings. Can it get more Kafkaesque than that? The thing that struck me most forcefully about Sam’s book was his exhortation that we start demanding accountability from those who believe in so-called “divine religion” and I’d like to say AMEN (you should excuse the expression) to that, and If Not Now, When, and If Not We, Who? Other than letters to the editor, buttons/bumperstickers/T-shirts, and painting “It’s the Islamofascists, Stupid” across the side of your house, anybody got any suggestions?

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Posted: 13 February 2006 01:00 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]  
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Given that the extremists are extremely unlikely to listen to reason presumably it’d be more useful to try and persuade the “moderate” believers (Christian as well as Muslim) of the hypocrisy of their positions?

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Posted: 13 February 2006 07:34 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]  
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Here’s the contact details of Ekmeleddin Ihsanoglu, secretary general of the Organization of Islamic Conference. He’s one ‘moderate’ that needs convincing.

Prof. Ekmeleddin IHSANOGLU
Research Centre for Islamic History, Art and Culture
P.O. Box 24
Besiktas, 80692 Istanbul
TURKEY
Fax: +90 212 258 4365
Email: .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)

This is a guy quoted as saying: “We should fight terrorism by dealing with its roots and causes, whether committed by individuals, groups or states. Terrorism is a crime that every Muslim should fight.”

So let’s show him the roots and causes are not Western intervention in Muslim lands, but directives laid down in the Qur’an and Hadith, and provide the proofs:

“Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of Allah and your enemies…” (Qur’an 8:60) - Note, the Arabic word (turhiboon) translated here as “to strike terror into…” comes from the root arhaba: to terrorize, threaten. The word for terrorism is irhaab in Arabic.

And the hadith: ”...I have been made victorious with terror…” ( Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 220 )

And: “I have been sent close to the Hour, with the sword, so that none has the right to be worshipped except Allaah alone, without any partner. My sustenance is beneath the shade of my spear. And humiliation and ignominy is for whosoever opposes my command. And whosoever resembles a people is from them.” (a saheeh [“authentic”] hadith. Related by Ahmad [no. 5114] and Ibn ’Asaakir [19/96/1])

And he wasn’t kidding when he said his sustenance was beneath the shade of his spear. He took from his neighbours in offensive warfare to support himself. According to At-Tabari (IX:115):  “The military expeditions (Ghazawat, literally raid) in which the Messenger personally participated were twenty-six. Some say there were twenty-seven.” (At-Tabari IX:118) “The armies and raiding parties sent by the Messenger of Allah between the time he came to Medina and his death (ten years) was forty-eight.” (This is from a good article you can read here )

Maybe Mr. Ihsanoglu should be aware of these things. There is no offence when the cartoonists, or anyone else for that matter, are just stating the truth.

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Posted: 15 February 2006 03:49 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]  
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[quote author=“LightofReason”]We, Who? Other than letters to the editor, buttons/bumperstickers/T-shirts, and painting “It’s the Islamofascists, Stupid” across the side of your house, anybody got any suggestions?

We have to go back to working on The Manifesto. As I watch this forum it becomes more clear to me that The Manifesto should be much more than just the declaration of the principles we believe in.

The Manifesto should include some specific political demands regardless of how likely it is now for our demands to succeed.

The big important item in The Manifesto for me is the demand for secular society and secular government. It should include demand that religions be licensed and controlled. It should include prohibition of religious indoctrination of children. For instance, “teaching” children about hell and angry God as well as instilling in them notions of sin should be forbidden and punishable as we now punish sex abusers.

Before once again you respond that I am an extremist advertising openly atheist Chinese style treatment/persecution of religions let me clarify.

1. I am not advertising banning of religions or religious education. What I want is to translate Sam Harris into the language of law. Isn’t the function of law to prevent bad things in societies? If we understand certain aspects of religions, including specifics in the specific religions, to be bad and harmful to society why not to frame it in the legal language?

2. After we select important points for The Manifesto we should start the [hard] work on phrasing them in the best language we can muster. We have to write our vision/proposal in such way as to attract the largest support but without losing what we really care for.

We can envision The Manifesto as the integral part of the future Constitution of this or other country but at the same time I would like to see a paragraph calling for “international secularists to unite.” The paragraph would serve as a set of guideliness of what needs to be incorporated into international agreements between civilized nations. Given the current situation in Europe it is important that countries faced with the religious “dillemmas” can count on support of other countries when contemplating their actions.

If where the West stands on silly issues like Mahommed cartoons was clear to the world there would be no crisis we have now. If somebody wanted to riot in Syria or elsewhere the Syrian government would have clear understanding that rioting is its own problem and I bet they would prevent it.

T.O.

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Posted: 15 February 2006 04:13 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]  
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(Continuation)

We should state clearly that no moral/ethical principles of any religion deserve recognition, special consideration, or protection beyond regular protection of human rights.

In particular no religious opinion on abortion or cloning deserves any consideration by the lawmakers and judges of the country.

I have much less problem with allowing the Jehova Wittnesses to refuse blood transfusion for themselves than I have with the Christian “doctor” refusing to perform abortion because of his “conscience”. If he has a fragile conscience there are plenty of other professions outside of the gynecology.

The most absurd aspect of our moral “debates” today is, however, the entire nonsense around cloning. Why we even allow politicians to “regulate” cloning? What do they know? The ethical issues are quite simple and straightforward here. Until the technology matures the COMMERCIAL cloning of humans should be forbidden for the same reason we would like to ban inhumane treatment of animals.

T.O.

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Posted: 15 February 2006 04:17 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]  
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[quote author=“mudfoot”][quote author=“From the article”]
The agreement, according to Ihsanoglu, will mean a formal rebuke by the U.N. and EU of the Danish paper Jyllands-Posten for publishing the offensive cartoons.

The statement, he added, stresses that divine religions and religious symbols must be respected, and that freedom of speech must not be taken so far as to desecrate religions.

 

This is ghastly.

Back to The Manifesto, mudfoot. When we finish we shall send a copy to the UN and EU.

T.O.

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Posted: 15 February 2006 08:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]  
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Hi Thomas,
Why don’t you start a thread specifically about this Manifesto you have in mind…

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Posted: 16 February 2006 12:30 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]  
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Hi Lorenzo,

I have bumped The Manifesto back to the top in the Politics ... section. Good luck to us.

http://www.samharris.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=15927#15927

T.O.

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Posted: 17 February 2006 12:30 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]  
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Good luck with the manifesto, Tom. I’d vote for it - but I suspect that its impact on the Muslim world - or the Christian world for that matter - would be minimal at best.

It’s unfortunate that humankind appears to need to gorge itself on blood before accomodations can be made between opposing factions, but even a cursory glance at history seems to indicate that that’s one of our very favourite things to do.

I fear it will take a real, full-scale war before our religious brethren are able to negotiate like grown-ups. A few hundred million dead (sorry, ‘souls given over to God’) and no doubt we’ll be exhausted enough to stop fighting again for a bit.

You know my problem with evolution? It’s not nearly fast enough…

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All Christians should be sent to heaven immediately.

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Posted: 17 February 2006 12:56 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]  
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[quote author=“Occam’s Razor”]Good luck with the manifesto, Tom. I’d vote for it - but I suspect that its impact on the Muslim world - or the Christian world for that matter - would be minimal at best.

It’s unfortunate that humankind appears to need to gorge itself on blood before accomodations can be made between opposing factions, but even a cursory glance at history seems to indicate that that’s one of our very favourite things to do.

I fear it will take a real, full-scale war before our religious brethren are able to negotiate like grown-ups. A few hundred million dead (sorry, ‘souls given over to God’) and no doubt we’ll be exhausted enough to stop fighting again for a bit.

You know my problem with evolution? It’s not nearly fast enough…

The Manifesto will not have an impact on the Muslim world. We need it to assert ourselves. Maybe it can lead to a movement and inspire us to fight for political visibility? Maybe it will help our ideas to be heard? Never underestimate the power of ideas…

Last night I suggested to start the work on Manifesto by writing an Open Letter to the Western leaders regarding the cartoons fiasco. How about adding your thoughts on the subject? (I will come back with the link)

T.O.

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Posted: 17 February 2006 12:59 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]  
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The Manifest is here. Scroll to the bottom.

http://www.samharris.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1100&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=90

T.O.

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Posted: 17 February 2006 03:02 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]  
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At the signing of the Declaration of Independence Ben Franklin commented, “We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately.”
Now that a fatwa on the lives of the Danish cartoonists has been issued by a Pakistani cleric, with a $1,000,000 bounty and a car for whoever kills the cartoonists, it should be clear to even the most politically correct that the West absolutely must present a united front against these Islamofascist bastards.  The cowardly posture of most of the Western media is nothing more than allowing the original Danish cartoonists and newspaper to take the heat and twist in the wind while the rest hunker down under the guise of respecting Islamic sensitivity.  They already killed the Dutch filmmaker who dared to make a movie criticising Islamic treatment of women.  The only protection for those Danes is for us to all get out there too. What is needed is an international Cartoon day where millions of Westerners celebrate their freedom by drawing and publishing cartoon characatures of the bloodthirsty Mohammed. 
Remember the beginning scenes of the movie Lawrence of Arabia where Peter O’Toole’s Lawrence is stuck out in the desert with Omar Sharif’s sheik who had just shot Lawrence’s guide for drinking out of the sheik’s well?  Lawrence tells the sheik, “You are a cruel people, a silly people.”  Ain’t it the truth.

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Posted: 18 February 2006 12:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]  
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“You are a cruel people, a silly people.” Ain’t it the truth.

Nice quote.

And just to confirm

MAIDUGURI, Nigeria (AP) - Nigerian Muslims protesting against caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad attacked Christians and burned churches Saturday in violence that left at least 15 people dead, police and residents said.

Troops and police reinforcements were deployed to restore order in the northeastern city Maiduguri, where 15 Christian churches were burned, said Nigerian police spokesman Haz Iwendi.

Chima Ezeoke, a Maiduguri resident, said the protesters attacked and looted shops in the city owned by minority Christians, most of them with origins in the country’s south.

“Most of the dead were Christians beaten to death on the streets by the rioters,” Ezeoke said.

Note the silly placard: “Blasphemy. Is this Western Civilisation?”

How about this sister: “Murder of the Innocent Across the World Over Stupid Cartoons. Is This Islam?”

I think we know the answer.

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Posted: 18 February 2006 01:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]  
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That’s just given me a splendid idea. How about we organise mass demonstrations around the world holding up placards deploring the Muslims’ violence and killing. We can hold up placards refuting Islam and answering all the stupid placards they’ve shoved in our faces the last few weeks about the West and freedom.

If they organise mass rallies over ridiculous cartoons and continuously mock our civilisation, we have more justification to stage rallies over their murder, bloodshed, looting and destruction of property and mock the “freedom” of their civilisation.

And to show how better our civilisation really is, not one Muslim should be hurt and not one piece of property destroyed. I wonder if we can do it? If some are afraid of reprisals then cover your faces like they do. Or like this coward in particular. [His sign is quoting the Qur’anic verse: “Muhammad and those who believe along with him are severe against the disbelievers and merciful amongst themselves.” 48:29]

Worldwide protests against Muslim violence would put the world spotlight right on their belief system and could carry the added benefit of putting doubt into the hearts of milions of believers. It’s time they wake up to the world.

What do people here think?

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