Sam Harris

i never had any flashbacks either…. or out of body experiences, or words from above… except when my neighbor was yelling to turn down tales from topographic oceans…. from yes…. wow… maybe i’m having a flashback now.

Noggin,

You do know that the Scientologists can be very belligerent so keep you head down. A few months ago I read an article on how they got their tax exempt status and it wasn’t pretty. They actually threatened the people from the IRS who were in charge of their case and send some “boys” to the IRS offices. These people can be physical!
Stay loose! Thank you so much for the post. Great stuff.

Gee, and I thought that The Way International was manipulative-goofy. I had to pay $200 in 1981 for the 12-session PFAL course. The agressively-directed postive regard that they force on you is the key to what a cult is. NOBODY is that intensely interested in someone whom they first see unless they want something out of you. 

[quote author=“Noggin”]I thought I would post an accounting of last sunday’s experience.  Enjoy this bird’s eye view of an astonishingly bizzare religious world view:

Well I approach the year mark since I last entered the hallowed halls of Hubbardology. I have driven by their complex several times here and there and have been tempted to stop by just to grease the palm so to speak. But I bet at least one of you are wondering how intrusive they have or haven’t been this past year.

They have sent me three pamphlets in the mail, one of which was an invite to a very swanky event in San Fransisco. Oh my. I was tempted until I saw the high dollar (I think it was $150 a plate) minimum “donation” required prior my presence was allowed.

I have been phoned once that I know of. I never returned the phone call.

My plan is to return the $70 Hubbardology starter kit I bought from them. That’s right, I fully intend on walking right into the sacred halls right up to the sleek and sculpted euro looking bombshell receptionist and asking for a refund.

I want to devise a paragraph that punctuates why I want my money back. Something to the effect of how fraudulent I found it all to be, so incredulous, so mind numbingly insulting. I don’t know exactly what I want to say but I do know that I want to try to get my money back just to see what they will say. I understand they won’t refund my money, that’s not the objective.

Maybe I can go in posing as a fundie holy roller pentecostal

thank U jay susss!

or a Mormon… I would be good at that one… I could demand that since I tried Hubbardology out—you know gave it a fair shake—that it is now only fair for them to read my book and and get alll offended when they refuse. Maybe that will act as a conversation catalyst as to how or on WHAT possible basis do they reject Mormonism and believe in Hubbardology.

One way or another I would like to find this out from the horse’s mouth.

Noggin

Good luck with that. They are a very money hungry cult and probably won’t eagerly give you your money back. In fact, I’m going to guess what will happen…

The person you take it back to will get somebody else, an authority on “refunds.” This person will give you a sales pitch about how you need this thing in your life and how everyone who uses this thing has had a dramatic change in their life for the better.

When you insist on getting your refund, the refund person will try to offer you another model of the thing and gaurentee it’s workability. When you refuse, the refund person will get someone in their SP department who will give you a speil about what a terrible thing you are doing.

Then you will be sent to their DSP *destroy subversive person* department and there they will take the thing back and tell you they can’t give you the refund there, that it will have to go through headquarters and they will mail you a check.

So Noggin, good luck with that!

[quote author=“rab”]Good luck with that. They are a very money hungry cult and probably won’t eagerly give you your money back. In fact, I’m going to guess what will happen…
So Noggin, good luck with that!

I know!  That’s the point rab   ... honestly, how many people can walk around with that level of cult goo wiped all over them?  I hope they put me through the ringer!  I hope they try something uber weird so I can record every last detail and write the san jose mercury newspaper and expose them.

I haven’t thought it through, but I am going to do something next time I head up that way.

why, you ask?  why go do that?  You don’t understand how normal it makes me feel to do it.  I honestly believe I found a religion/ cult more wierd and more strange than the one I was hooked up to for the last three decades. 

Nogs

I was listening to Ring of Fire on Air America today. They talked to a guy who says that Mitt Romney is fast becoming the front runner of the GOP and is even gaining favor with leaders in the evangelical movement, which included the late Jerry Falwell.

They talked about what Mormons believe that differs from the other basic protestant faiths including the Baptists.

One of the differences is that when a Morman man dies, his soul goes to a planet (pronounced something like Kaylar) and sets up his own kingdom with many wives.

That reminded me of the scientology belief of the overlord Xenu and how our souls came into being—when he dropped the inhabitants of the planets into Earth’s volcanoes and their souls drifted up and waited for bodies to inhabit.

So yeah, one is just as weird as the other.

Hey, Noggin, excellent undercover work… ha ha….if you go to the “cult” forum, you’ll see the “workers contract” for Jews for Jesus…the full text is on the ex jews for jesus site.  They have branches everywhere, and they are funded by the baptist sect.  I have a friend who has been brainwashed by them, and he is in Israel now trying to convert Jews.  He has been given a Hebrew name, wears a long beard and a yamaka.  Check it out.  I think you’ll enjoy reading it.

Again, job well done!

Hey Noggin’ —
    I came across this thread for the first time today, even though it has been around for several weeks.  I like how you relate your story.  You have a way of writing that makes me able to envision very clearly what you are describing.  I noticed that several people who responded to your posts thought that the whole thing was very funny.  I didn’t see it that way at all.  Disturbing maybe.  Troubling, weird, intriguing even.  But not funny to me.  I don’t think there’s anything funny about people who are trying to find a way to deal with their fears and problems and confusion.  Isn’t that what we are all trying to do?  Trying to get through our lives… make the pieces fit… connect with eachother? help eachother? 
    I have no doubt that Scientology is a flawed system, like so many others.  But the man who asked you “what are you expecting to get out of this experience?”  asked a good question.  What is your answer?  (I am looking deeply into your eyes, mesmer-style, and am completely in earnest, and would save your soul if I knew how, and the only toxin I have in my system right now is cherry coke…)
    The reason I want to know your answer is because I don’t think I have a grip on what is motivating you.  It seems to me from what I’ve read so far, that you just wanted to have the experience of walking away from another brain-washing cult organization.  That seems like a strange motivation to me.  It seems like the actions of a bitter and angry person, who was intent on lashing out at organizations similar to the one that had caused him pain.  Is that your only motivation Noggin’?  There’s more to it, isn’t there?  What am I missing?  Why are you doing this?

What’s funny about it is how gullible people are. Sorry, much of comedy is based upon this. Noggin encountered people who had swallowed a pill that a discerning person wouldn’t. I agree, though, it’s sad too, just the way a person flies through the air on a sled and gets slightly hurt (as seen on America’s funniest videos) but not severely injured can be funny. The imagery Noggin created made me laugh as did the foolish people he encountered who surrender their lives to profit-seeking, greedy people who laugh all the way to the bank. As for being bitter, we all have something or another to be a bit bitter about. Honestly, your post seemed a little bitter too, and I’m sure the same could be said for some of my posts. Oh well, i appreciate Noggin’s efforts, and if it helps him to overcome his bad experiences, that’s fine. I appreciated the experience he took me through, and yes, I thought it was funny.

msdiver—I agree that reading stories of gullible people and those who exploit them can be humorous, even if it is slightly mean-spirited.  I guess I reacted to those stories the way I did because I am one of those gullible and foolish people who followed the path of a cult (Jehovah’s Witnesses) for several years.  Although I did not join their Church, I kept studying, I kept trying to “get it.”  What’s exasperating for me about this whole situation is that I have a hard time finding the line between what is foolish and gullible, and what is honestly and earnestly trying to learn and understand and live right. I know some Jehovah’s Witnesses who believe some crazy, crazy things (as do Scientologists, Mormons, Christians, etc etc etc…) but they are decent, normal, intelligent people living truly admirable lives.  This topic is definitley a sore spot for me.  I’m still raw and I’m still sensitive about it.  I don’t know if it’s bitterness, or anger, or just plain sadness.  As I’ve shared elsewhere, I don’t completely regret the years I spent studying the Bible with the Witnesses.  It really did give me an education, and it helps me to understand people who try to live by the scriptures. 
    Please understand, though, that I truly appreciate Noggin’s writing, and his honesty in expressing his feelings.  He helps me quite a bit, because we are going through similar experiences, in as far as leaving behind something that was a big part of our lives.  It isn’t easy.  I look forward to reading Noggin’s continued aventures in Cultland, even if they do make me feel uncomfortable.

I understand Woofy.  I’ve been deeply involved with Christianity myself, though not an outrageous form of it.  I was raised a congregationalist and then became an Episcopalian.  However, a very dear friend of mine was seduced into the fundamentalist movement, and I am very bitter about what happened to him.  He is brilliant, but he lost all his thinking powers once he joined this group.  He is now in Israel with Jews for Jesus trying to convert Jews.  This group poses as Jews to convert people.  They are funded by fundamentalists, mainly Baptists.  Seeing what has become of my friend sent me on a search to discover the “Truth” about religion, and that’s how I ended up here.  When I was deeply involved with the church, I read all the books that “proved” christian claims; this time, I read all the books that disproved it, and it didn’t take long to see through all the lies.  Though I presented my friend with all kinds of information that refuted what he was being told, he refused(es) to consider any of it.  He now believes the earth is 6,000 years old and says evolution is not true.  We went to the Galapagos Islands together!  Though we always had a mutual respect for each others’ intellects, he now sees me as a sinner who is going to hell and doesn’t want to listen to anything I have to say on the subject.  It breaks my heart.  He is now a judgemental, homophobic, bible thumping zealot.  He has abandoned his Jewish family and any friends who disagree.  This has been my main point with him:  religion divides people, just as nationalism does.  To see someone you love and care about go down the road of fundamentalism is heartbreaking. 

I just read something about the “good christians” who are picketing the funerals of soldiers with the slogan [sic]: They died because America condones homosexuality.  What the religious right has done to this country is frightening.  I agree with Harris and Dawkins that those who say they believe in a watered down version of christianity are part of the problem.  The roots of the christian myths can easily be traced back and exposed.  I read a great book on the subject:  Beyond the Brain and Belief: an Exploration of the Human Soul.  Don’t let the title confuse you.  It is not a book that says the soul exists.  It simply traces the path to this belief back to the drug-induced experiences of those who had out of body experiences which led to the belief that the soul exists.  It’s really a very enlightening book.

Anyway, I understand your point, Woofy, and Noggin’s too.  I will simply say that his experience with scientology makes me laugh and angry at the same time.  I picture my friend, who was hurting over a breakup when he got taken in, walking into that building and buying into their bullshit.  This makes me sad and angry, but when someone like Noggin goes in, it’s funny because being a discerning person, he sees the events from a very different perspective. 

It’s all good Woofy.  I’m curious, though.  What made you decide it was all crap?  Do you think there is anything I can do to help my friend see the light, so to speak, or should I back off and let go?

msdiver—I can’t honestly say that I came to the conclusion that it is “all crap”  as far as religion is concerned.  I did come to the conclusion that the Bible I was studying was not the inerrant word of God.  One thing about studying with people who are utterly sincere and devout and honestly living their beliefs… they are very convincing.  Such conviction.  They make it all seem so logical.  And the woman I was studying with is a truly lovely person.  She is still my friend, and we walk together several times a week.  The bottom line for me was, my conscience would not accept the Bible as Truth.  I don’t know what can be done for your friend.  It took me years to gather the courage to say “no, I don’t believe this.”  But I understand why people search for God.  I have to say that somewhere, deep down in my heart I’m still searching.  I’m just not searching via organized religion anymore.

Hi there msdiver and woofy! Glad to see my foray into the deep thought abyss vaccum that is otherwise known as Scientology has provided a few insights.  It truly was a very special experience. 

[quote author=“woofy”]Hey Noggin’ —
    I came across this thread for the first time today, even though it has been around for several weeks.  I like how you relate your story.  You have a way of writing that makes me able to envision very clearly what you are describing.  I noticed that several people who responded to your posts thought that the whole thing was very funny.  I didn’t see it that way at all.  Disturbing maybe.  Troubling, weird, intriguing even.  But not funny to me.  I don’t think there’s anything funny about people who are trying to find a way to deal with their fears and problems and confusion.  Isn’t that what we are all trying to do?  Trying to get through our lives… make the pieces fit… connect with eachother? help eachother?

woofy, if you were to go into the Scientologists meetings, you would definitely feel disturbed.  I hope that what I wrote about my experience showed how quirky the whole deal is.  I have to say this though:

It’s so disturbing that your time spent “finding your chair” and doing the “hollah back” drills as I called them, start to leave you feeling other worldly… it becomes surreal… there is a certain amount of odd disconnect going on.  I am fairly positive that this is counted on or a part of the Scientology experience in order to get the new recruits sucked in.

For me, the experience, when it reached the truly bizzare points, became low level humorous.  The way they looked so intently at me, tried to look into my “soul”... it was like they were spiritually feeling me up!  Those piercing eye gazes…I almost felt violated!  It’s just that they were so serious about something so unintelligable… kind of like Mormonism.

Yeah, about that… I guess also, the humor for me was seeing myself in them.  I had vivid flashes of all the non Mormon friends I used to take to church with me here and there.  I used to be the fanatical one.  I used to try to talk people into seeing why Mormonism was god’s only true church on earth.  I used to be the zealot.  At the scientology meetings I attended, I recoiled somewhat at how I viewed them.  I then saw how these friends of mine must have seen me as some oddball nutty Mormon fanatic.  I kick myself now for trying to convert them to what I believed.  I am now amazed that so many of them remained friends with me.

    I have no doubt that Scientology is a flawed system, like so many others.  But the man who asked you “what are you expecting to get out of this experience?”  asked a good question.  What is your answer?  (I am looking deeply into your eyes, mesmer-style, and am completely in earnest, and would save your soul if I knew how, and the only toxin I have in my system right now is cherry coke…)
    The reason I want to know your answer is because I don’t think I have a grip on what is motivating you.

The first year after I denounced Mormonism to my family and friends, telling them that I no longer believed in it, was very hard.  Probably the first 18 months.  Now they just look at me with pity and “know” I am deceived and that is that… but for the first little while they all tried to reconcile my doubts and denouncements.

What motivates me to attend wacky bizarre cults is plain.  The more people I can see giving their entire existence to a cult I know to be invented, the more secure I began to feel about Mormonism.

I could write a library on that reason/ motivation so don’t get me started   (actually, if you seriously are interested, DO get me started because I love to talk about it—but only if you are interested).

No one really knows how fanatically polarized a human brain can get unless theirs has been there.  There is just no way one can appreciate the levels of conviction found in the head of a fundy zealot unless they have been one. 

It seems to me from what I’ve read so far, that you just wanted to have the experience of walking away from another brain-washing cult organization.  That seems like a strange motivation to me.  It seems like the actions of a bitter and angry person, who was intent on lashing out at organizations similar to the one that had caused him pain.  Is that your only motivation Noggin’?  There’s more to it, isn’t there?  What am I missing?  Why are you doing this?

Seeing Scientology in all of its glory, peeking up underneath its skirt to see the stubby nubblies and then calling a spade a spade felt like it helped me gain some ground over to normalcy.

ee, I’ve never been normal and that is that.  I have always been a polarized brainwashed idiot spouting ridiculous nonsense and I spent 3 decades of my life believing unbelievable beliefs.  You are talking to a guy who used to stand on the steps of the Basillicas in Spain preaching “the word of God” to crowds of people heckling me.  I used to shout out small sermons to the Spaniards trying to get a few to listen to the Mormon message.  I was very proactive.  Most Mormon missionaries did not go to that extreme.  I was 19-21 years old when I did that level of polarization.  That is how convinced I was that Mormonism was god’s truth.  I was a hook line and sinker Mormon. 

Again, seeing something else bizarre and being able to see it as utter bullshit helped me see that I was really not much different than the Scientologist standing in front of me… quizzing me with those steely x ray eyes of his… 

When he looked at me like that I wanted to say “I know you… I USED TO BE YOU”

Yes.  I used that experience to galvanize how other people also believed in the most fantastic things all day long.  For me, I could not just take someone elses word for it about how Scientologists believe X, Y and Z.  I had to go and touch it.  It helped me conclude how just because millions believe in Scientology or Mormonism or Jehovah’s Witnesses or Prem Rawat Maharaji does not make that belief a true or accurate belief grounded in what is real.

For me, it took interacting with Scientologists and JW’s, shaking their hands, talking to them, witnessing the convictions in their eyes, speech, and whatnot.. I was constantly testing them to see if they were as convicted as I was as a Mormon.  I needed to see how convicted they were so that I could feel safer about truly leaving Mormonism finally behind me.

I hope that helped.  You know, I don’t think anyone actually ever asked me why I did this.  I did not need anyone to ask as my reasons were my own… but I am glad you did ask, woofy.

Noggin

Priceless story about the founding of Scientology:

http://www.islets.net/faq.html#Anchor-Was-47857