Is Salt Creek a Zen Master?
Posted: 03 June 2009 02:26 PM   [ Ignore ]  
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  2136
Joined  2006-02-20

Is Salt Creek a Zen master?  Consider the following anecdotes from 11th century China:

“All those who would communicate the message of the source must be able to kill a person’s false personality without blinking an eye.

One example was old man Huangbo.  He knew of this state innately.  When he was on his travels he came to Mount Tiantai, where he saw a saint walking across the waves, cutting off a torrent - Huangbo immediately wanted to strike him dead.  When he reached (the person) Baizhang and heard the story about how a single shout from Mazu had left Baizhang deaf for three days, he drew back and stuck out his tongue.  We know this was the action of Huangbo’s great potential.  How could those with simplistic opinions and shallow learning form any opinion of it?

At Vaishali, Vimalakirta revealed the fundamental principle by keeping his mouth shut and refusing to speak.  Even so, there are adepts who will not forgive (him) for such a display.  How much less would they forgive getting involved with marvels and delving into mysteries, discoursing upon the true nature of mind, and having a sweaty shirt stuck to their skin and being unable to strip it off!  That would appear even more broken down and decrepit.  They never dragged through the muddy water of emotionalism and intellectualism.

This is how the ancients were aware in advance of the dust blowing in the wind and the grasses moving.  As soon as any obstructive illusions sprouted, they would immediately mow them down.  Still, they could hardly find anybody willing and able to share in the life of wisdom.

How could the genuine Zen teachers be compared with those phonies who roll around in the weeds together, pulling each other along, dragging each other into intellectual and verbal judgments and arbitrary choices, creating cliches to bury the sons and daughters of other people’s families?

Did Bodhidharma actually bring this teaching when he came from the West?  (brought Buddhism from India to China)  All he did was to point out the true nature that each and every person inherently possesses, to enable people to thoroughly emerge clear and pure from the orbit of delusion and not be stained and defiled by all their erroneous knowledge and consciousness and false thoughts and judgments.”

Excerpted from ‘ZEN LETTERS - Teachings of Yuanwu,’
translated by J.C. Cleary and Thomas Cleary

[ Edited: 04 June 2009 10:59 AM by unsmoked]
 Signature 

“The simple fables of the religious of the world have come to seem like tales told to children.”  - Nobel Prize recipient - Francis Crick

“It is time we recognized the boundless narcissism and self-deceit of the saved.” - Sam Harris

Profile
 
 
Posted: 03 June 2009 08:37 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]  
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1763
Joined  2006-08-20

No, he’s just a cynical asshole.
As one who knows one,
I’m sure he appreciates the compliment. wink

 Signature 

The ants are my friends, they’re blowing in the wind, the ants are blowing in the wind.

Dog is my co-pilot

Profile
 
 
Posted: 04 June 2009 06:40 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]  
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  2492
Joined  2008-04-05

Epicureans cannot by definition be cynical assholes so, I am sure you are not referencing yourself here euc.  smile

 Signature 

‘Every reflecting mind must acknowledge that there is no proof of the existence of a Deity’

‘If ignorance of nature gave birth to gods, knowledge of nature destroys them’

Percy Bysshe Shelley

Profile
 
 
Posted: 04 June 2009 11:20 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]  
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  2136
Joined  2006-02-20
eucaryote - 04 June 2009 12:37 AM

No, he’s just a cynical asshole.
As one who knows one,
I’m sure he appreciates the compliment. wink

When one makes a raspberry in your face, you cling to the notion that it was jocular or well intentioned.

raspberry n. 2 a sound of contempt made by protruding the tongue between the lips and expelling air forcibly (often accompanied by spray) to produce a vibration; broadly: an expression of disapproval

 Signature 

“The simple fables of the religious of the world have come to seem like tales told to children.”  - Nobel Prize recipient - Francis Crick

“It is time we recognized the boundless narcissism and self-deceit of the saved.” - Sam Harris

Profile
 
 
Posted: 04 June 2009 11:30 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]  
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1763
Joined  2006-08-20
eudemonia - 04 June 2009 10:40 AM

Epicureans cannot by definition be cynical assholes ......

But we can try! wink

Who is Eudemonia again?

 Signature 

The ants are my friends, they’re blowing in the wind, the ants are blowing in the wind.

Dog is my co-pilot

Profile
 
 
Posted: 04 June 2009 11:31 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]  
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1763
Joined  2006-08-20
unsmoked - 04 June 2009 03:20 PM
eucaryote - 04 June 2009 12:37 AM

No, he’s just a cynical asshole.
As one who knows one,
I’m sure he appreciates the compliment. wink

When one makes a raspberry in your face, you cling to the notion that it was jocular or well intentioned.

raspberry n. 2 a sound of contempt made by protruding the tongue between the lips and expelling air forcibly (often accompanied by spray) to produce a vibration; broadly: an expression of disapproval

Salt Creek is to a Zen Master as fucking is to fighting.
They only look and sound the same! wink

 Signature 

The ants are my friends, they’re blowing in the wind, the ants are blowing in the wind.

Dog is my co-pilot

Profile
 
 
Posted: 04 June 2009 12:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]  
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  2136
Joined  2006-02-20
eucaryote - 04 June 2009 03:31 PM
unsmoked - 04 June 2009 03:20 PM
eucaryote - 04 June 2009 12:37 AM

No, he’s just a cynical asshole.
As one who knows one,
I’m sure he appreciates the compliment. wink

When one makes a raspberry in your face, you cling to the notion that it was jocular or well intentioned.

raspberry n. 2 a sound of contempt made by protruding the tongue between the lips and expelling air forcibly (often accompanied by spray) to produce a vibration; broadly: an expression of disapproval

Salt Creek is to a Zen Master as fucking is to fighting.
They only look and sound the same! wink

Or, who’s that guy who bit off the other guy’s ear?  downer

 Signature 

“The simple fables of the religious of the world have come to seem like tales told to children.”  - Nobel Prize recipient - Francis Crick

“It is time we recognized the boundless narcissism and self-deceit of the saved.” - Sam Harris

Profile
 
 
Posted: 04 June 2009 02:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]  
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  2492
Joined  2008-04-05

‘Salt Creek is to a Zen Master as fucking is to fighting.
They only look and sound the same! ‘

Ha! Good one euc!

 Signature 

‘Every reflecting mind must acknowledge that there is no proof of the existence of a Deity’

‘If ignorance of nature gave birth to gods, knowledge of nature destroys them’

Percy Bysshe Shelley

Profile
 
 
Posted: 04 June 2009 04:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]  
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1221
Joined  2008-07-20

Salt Creek is actually an unrepentant Lacanian, and, as such, rails against Lacan.

 Signature 

“I am one of the few people I know who has argued in print that torture may be an ethical necessity in our war on terror.”  Sam Harris October 17, 2005

Profile
 
 
Posted: 05 June 2009 12:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]  
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  2136
Joined  2006-02-20
teuchter - 04 June 2009 08:21 PM

Salt Creek is actually an unrepentant Lacanian, and, as such, rails against Lacan.

Teuchter, I dodged that boomerang in the nick of time.  Or did I?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_Lacan#Criticism

I see where one critic called Lacan’s work an “incoherent system of pseudo-scientific gibberish.”

“In ‘FASHIONABLE NONSENSE’ Alan Sokai and Jean Bricmont accused Lacan of “superficial erudition” and of abusing scientific concepts he does not understand.”

Now, I can see Salt Creek railing against superficial erudition, and people who abuse scientific concepts they do not understand; I can see his assessment of ZEN etc. as pseudo-scientific gibberish, but does he ridicule scientists and scholars who claim, like Sam Harris:

“Mysticism is a rational enterprise.  Religion is not.  The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion.”

[ Edited: 07 June 2009 04:47 PM by unsmoked]
 Signature 

“The simple fables of the religious of the world have come to seem like tales told to children.”  - Nobel Prize recipient - Francis Crick

“It is time we recognized the boundless narcissism and self-deceit of the saved.” - Sam Harris

Profile
 
 
   
 
 
RSS 2.0     Atom Feed