Sam Harris

I imagine that quite a few of those children wished their parents had just been normal, decent human beings - same with the heart-breaking fate of Jewish children in Europe not long ago.

What is normal, decent?  Are you actually saying that its the Jewish parents’ faults that the holocaust occurred?  Seriously unsmoked, you’re in dangerous territory here. 

Have you seen news footage of the millions of little boys at the madrasas in Pakistan?  They squat around the ‘schoolroom’ tables, rocking endlessly over their Korans.  There are no classes in science, math, or anything else - only memorizing the Koran and learning that girls must stay at home.  Many are already pledged to martyrdom.  Their parents have the right to do this to them you say?

Yes…what is your alternative?  Do you want to try to force them into the American tribe or the Western European tribe?  I would prefer that their culture be transformed by the Gospel…what do you have in mind?

‘I would prefer that their culture be transformed by the Gospel…what do you have in mind?’

Which gospel is that?

How about secular humanist? A view based on science and reason. No superstition, no religious dogma. No fear. How about a culture based on attempting to make the world better for everyone today, and not worried about an imaginary afterlife preseceded by an apocalyptic end? How about a culture based on reality instead of mysticism and magic?

Is that too difficult to ask for? Isn’ this a transformation worth persuing?

clayforHim648 - 04 July 2009 12:53 AM

I imagine that quite a few of those children wished their parents had just been normal, decent human beings - same with the heart-breaking fate of Jewish children in Europe not long ago.

What is normal, decent?  Are you actually saying that its the Jewish parents’ faults that the holocaust occurred?  Seriously unsmoked, you’re in dangerous territory here. 

Have you seen news footage of the millions of little boys at the madrasas in Pakistan?  They squat around the ‘schoolroom’ tables, rocking endlessly over their Korans.  There are no classes in science, math, or anything else - only memorizing the Koran and learning that girls must stay at home.  Many are already pledged to martyrdom.  Their parents have the right to do this to them you say?

Yes…what is your alternative?  Do you want to try to force them into the American tribe or the Western European tribe?  I would prefer that their culture be transformed by the Gospel…what do you have in mind?

Dangerous territory?  Clay, we’re talking here about the divisions between people, the deadly conflicts and crimes in the world caused by religion.  During the Holocaust at least 66 percent of the German population was Christian.  People like yourself seem to be completely unaware of the degree to which Christians in Germany threw their support behind Adolf Hitler and the Nazi Party.  Family values for Christ’s sake!
Sound familiar?

Dangerous territory?  You and your brethren voted for family values, right?  You voted for a gang that lied to you and plunged your country into wars, right?  A gang that convinced you that it is a good idea to torture prisoners of war, right?  A gang that bombed civilians, killing hundreds of thousands, maimed hundreds of thousands, made millions homeless, right?  A gang that galvanized the Muslim world with new legitimacy for its holy wars, right?

How would you feel if you were an unemployed Muslim youth in Cairo, looking at photos of the torture scenes in Abu Graib, Guantanamo, and the secret CIA dungeons in Turkey or elsewhere?  How would you feel if you were a Muslim schoolboy in Karachi looking at photos of Christian thugs in camouflage uniforms attaching electric wires to Muslim POW’s? 

Dangerous territory?  Don’t go there, Clay.  Go to your church and talk about family values.  Vote for ‘Christian’ people who promise to support your family values.

http://nobeliefs.com/nazis.htm

Dangerous territory?  Clay, we’re talking here about the divisions between people, the deadly conflicts and crimes in the world caused by religion.  During the Holocaust at least 66 percent of the German population was Christian.  People like yourself seem to be completely unaware of the degree to which Christians in Germany threw their support behind Adolf Hitler and the Nazi Party.  Family values for Christ’s sake!
Sound familiar?

Dangerous territory?  You and your brethren voted for family values, right?  You voted for a gang that lied to you and plunged your country into wars, right?  A gang that convinced you that it is a good idea to torture prisoners of war, right?  A gang that bombed civilians, killing hundreds of thousands, maimed hundreds of thousands, made millions homeless, right?  A gang that galvanized the Muslim world with new legitimacy for its holy wars, right?

How would you feel if you were an unemployed Muslim youth in Cairo, looking at photos of the torture scenes in Abu Graib, Guantanamo, and the secret CIA dungeons in Turkey or elsewhere?  How would you feel if you were a Muslim schoolboy in Karachi looking at photos of Christian thugs in camouflage uniforms attaching electric wires to Muslim POW’s?

Dangerous territory?  Don’t go there, Clay.  Go to your church and talk about family values.  Vote for ‘Christian’ people who promise to support your family values.

Please unsmoked, I don’t a need a lecture on political history or world religion.  You don’t know who I vote for or what politics I support.  The problem is that you can’t have a conversation with one Christian about their beliefs because you just lump everyone into the same category…and more than that, you somehow find the audacity to blame anyone that calls themself a Christian for the world’s problems.

clayforHim648 - 05 July 2009 02:21 AM

Please unsmoked, I don’t a need a lecture on political history or world religion.  You don’t know who I vote for or what politics I support.  The problem is that you can’t have a conversation with one Christian about their beliefs because you just lump everyone into the same category…and more than that, you somehow find the audacity to blame anyone that calls themself a Christian for the world’s problems.

Clay, you’re absolutely right.  Let’s start over.  This is important.  I’ve had conversations with many Christians and it’s true, you’re all different.  If I’ve blamed Christians for the world’s problems it has been a grievous fault.  Pointing fingers at others isn’t going to solve problems. 

On this topic you’ve already said that you believe the miracles reported in the Bible are true and actually took place, but the miracles reported in other people’s holy books - books that other people believe were written by God are not true, did not really happen.  I think that this belief, which many Christians share with you, causes enmity in the world.  Do you agree?

enmity n : positive, active, and typically mutual hatred or ill will