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Tips for raising atheist children
Posted: 01 March 2006 04:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]  
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[quote author=“Savage Henry”]Ok so serial killers and nazis and inquisitioners have as much of a right to their opinions as I do and therefore it is wrong for me to treat them intolerantly, because then I would be just like them - is that it? Excellent theory.


Actually you’ve been consistently demonstrating a very religious pattern of thinking, and that’s the real problem TEoF addresses. That comment is a good example—you use hyperbole to drastically misrepresent the position you want to believe is weak so it’s easy to disregard. It’s not only a straw man argument, but it’s a rather blatant straw man, which means buying it requires a significant level of self-deception (just as with religious apologetics).

It seems pretty clear you’ve made the same sort of intellectually compromising investment (psychologically/emotionally) in your worldview that your average fundamentalist apologist has. It seems to be preventing you from examining anything regarding religion very objectively or critically. As Carl Sagan said, “Where we have strong emotions, we’re liable to fool ourselves.”

Byron

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“We say, ‘Love your brother…’ We don’t say it really, but… Well we don’t literally say it. We don’t really, literally mean it. No, we don’t believe it either, but… But that message should be clear.”—David St. Hubbins

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Posted: 01 March 2006 08:38 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]  
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Henry is highlighting toleration’s paradox—it cannot tolerate intolerance.

Pluralism abhors totalitarianism.

Faith shackles reason.

Did you guys miss the parts of “The End Of Faith” which made the case against accepting faith-based viewpoints as inherently valid?  Chapters 1-7.

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Posted: 02 March 2006 12:14 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]  
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[quote author=“mudfoot”]Henry is highlighting toleration’s paradox—it cannot tolerate intolerance.

Pluralism abhors totalitarianism.

Faith shackles reason.

Did you guys miss the parts of “The End Of Faith” which made the case against accepting faith-based viewpoints as inherently valid?  Chapters 1-7.


How about the whole book throughout which Sam maintains a high standard of reason and evidence upon which he builds a sound and sober case?

Strong emotions compromise responsible, sound analyses (ie. intellectual integrity). If you have to hurl slings and arrows at a notion in order to consider it, or you can’t consider it without doing so, then you’re not very likely to be able to responsibly or even effectively analyze and understand it. You’re going to much more likely deal with it in functionally very much the same way believers deal with the matters of faith which they’ve invested so extremely in.

Byron

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“We say, ‘Love your brother…’ We don’t say it really, but… Well we don’t literally say it. We don’t really, literally mean it. No, we don’t believe it either, but… But that message should be clear.”—David St. Hubbins

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Posted: 02 March 2006 10:10 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]  
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[quote author=“SkepticX”]
Strong emotions compromise responsible, sound analyses (ie. intellectual integrity).

Yeah.  Impartial verdict—faith is stupid.

:twisted: Clubbing the faithful is a metaphor. :twisted:

Militancy isn’t the problem.  It’s just mis-placed.

Henry’s stance is militantly “Leave me the FSCK alone” aka “Don’t tread on me” aka “Live free or die”.

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Posted: 03 March 2006 01:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]  
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[quote author=“TheChampion”]Hey, if you need tips, check out the Hitler Youth. They too tried to raise up a nation of atheist children and from what my sources tell me, they did a darn tooting job.

Champ is often fond of saying Hitler was an athiest but I don’t think that’s true.  Whenever I see this I’m going to post this link which I think provides many examples demonstrating the opposite: Hitler acted like Christians of the past and present. His actions agree with many God ordained horrors of the Bible.

I post this, not for Champ’s sake, but for others.  I’d also like to point out that attributing Hitler to thoughts and behaviors in and of itself does nothing to prove anything.  For example:  I say Berlin is in Germany (which it is) and in response I get: Evil people often think this; Hitler believed the same thing.  Adding Hitler to a sentence as a way to say, “See how bad this is,” isn’t going to cut it.

[quote author=“Adolf Hitler, in his speech on 12 April 1922”]My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before in the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice…. And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people…. When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom to-day this poor people is plundered and exploited. “

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Posted: 29 March 2006 04:03 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]  
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I like the responses that you are teaching your kids to be moral and thoughtful, but it is perfectly OK to call people stupid or moronic.

When I was a child I was taught that you showed respect to anyone older than you were and that name calling was not nice. Geuss my parents were just kooks or something. They didn’t even want me to call them by their first name, can you imagine that.

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Posted: 29 March 2006 04:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]  
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Savage Henry

Psi - you seem to advocate respect for religious beliefs. Did you happen to read this book….what was it called again….oh yeah - The End Of Faith? Not only should we, our children, and our children’s children’s children be confronting unfounded beliefs, if we want a fair shot at survival we should be clobbering believers like baby seals

.

Fair shot at survival? Who has unfounded beliefs? I hope for your sake that you don’t walk around all day with that fear in your heart or you need some help.

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Posted: 31 March 2006 10:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]  
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Dear 1foxyjen and Savage Henry,

I would very much grant you and your family welcome in any neighborhood or community that I was a part of—whether you were atheist, theist, or whatever. 

I guess we’d agree that parents have the right to teach children what to believe.  And we’d agree that these beliefs should be founded on solid grounding. 

Plenty of theists think this way.  I am one.  I hate the way many people unthinkingly believe.  But I don’t hate them. 

And Savage Henry, I don’t think you should let your child think that church is where all the stupid people go.  I don’t mean to be rude, but that is neither true, nor is it good.  Many decent people, who would respect you and treat you well, go to church.  And I know many scientists, scholars, and normally intelligent people who are theists.  Your daughter will need a more nuanced understanding “than those stupid people.” 

How about this?  “Look! that’s where those stupid (and sometimes nice and sometimes intelligent people) go on Sunday!”

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Posted: 26 April 2006 10:40 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]  
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My only reply is this:
one should not indoctrinate their children as “atheists” anymore than they should indoctrinate their children w/theism, or deism, or well…you get the picture.
Inform them inteligently about all philosophical propositions and then let them freely choose once they get old enough to be biologically adult{teens} to believe as they wish -but encourage them to continue to investigate{of course, once they reach this age, I see nothing wrong w/joining them in mocking theists and faithists; and I do think subversevely even young children should be taught to be “skeptical"of faith and theism-but w/out outright teaching them to be asholes about it-until they get older of course, heehee!}.

In Reason:
The very irreverand Bill

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“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”-Christopher Hitchens

“The greatest weapon against errors of any kind is REASON”
Toleration is not the opposite of intolerance but the counterfeit of it. Both are despotisms: the one assumes to itself the right of withholding liberty of conscience, the other of granting it.
“He who dares not offend cannot be honest”
-THOMAS PAINE

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Posted: 26 April 2006 11:09 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]  
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I agree with Bill.  All that’s needed to turn this world around is education.  Start early, and don’t stop.  Find some way to get a comprehensive religious studies program instated into our public and private school systems.  But it always starts with the parents. Oh yeah, and make sure the kids learn how to play chess.  Hey, not only is it a great game, but it helps develop critical thinking skills and also aides a mind in concentration skills, ability to focus on different things at the same time…  Yes, chess is a great game.  So, the answer is chess and education.  Sounds great to me, but then again, I did say ti myself.  :D

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