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Sam's truthdig interview
Posted: 08 April 2006 01:44 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]  
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uh… frankr… you may need a splash more caffeine on this lovely Saturday morn, since you seem to’ve spaced out the fact that this book was being discussed on that other thread… remember now? If you’d simply taken a sec to click on the source link you just posted, you would’ve answered your own question. I specifically googled for a theist’s critique of Bart Ehrman’s book—Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why—and posted a question based on that. I almost always seek out opposing perspectives, so as to consider what each side is riled up about.  How odd that you would be bothered by my doing my homework :?.


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Posted: 08 April 2006 04:08 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]  
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[quote author=“blackdaug”]As many of you may know Mr. Harris has a new truth dig interview  

He gives an example of how the religious may be persuaded to abandon irrationality:

I think this is a war of ideas that has to be fought on a hundred fronts at once. There’s not one piece that is going to trump all others.

But I think we should not underestimate the power of embarrassment. The book Freakonomics briefly discusses the way the Ku Klux Klan lost its subscribers, and the example is instructive. A man named Stetson Kennedy, almost single-handedly it seems, eroded the prestige of the Ku Klux Klan in the 1940s by joining them and then leaking all of their secret passwords and goofy lingo to the people who were writing “The Adventures of Superman” radio show. Week after week, there were episodes of Superman fighting the Klan, and the real Klan’s mumbo jumbo was put out all over the airwaves for people to laugh at. Kids were playing Superman vs. the Klan on their front lawns. The Klan was humiliated by this, and was made to look foolish; and we went from a world in which the Klan was a legitimate organization with tens of millions of members—many of whom were senators, and even one president—to a world in which there are now something like 5,000 Klansmen. It’s basically a defunct organization.

Sam Harris

I would love to see a collection of the ridiculous bible quotes, claims, edicts ect….just to have handy.

In Latin America, where people have been subject to the worst crimes against humanity by deeply religious people, the social movement has worked out something which ressembles what is explained above—they call it “escrache”. When a criminal against humanity has not been judged and enjoys freedom and richess as if the situation where still that under the dictatorship he took part in, people investigate the criminal and start spreading in society all the information about his crimes. Then there’s one day when they all get together and walk to the criminal’s building and point he lives there, so that the neighbourhood knows who their neighbour is. Spreading information cannot be thought of as diffamation, it’s quoting their acts, as if we quoted their words. Escrache is an action which involves people’s empowerment in a constructive sense. In journalism it’d be called “investigative journalism”, governmentally it’d be called “a fair trial”, where the info is saught. But when people do it, to put pressure on society, on our ruling bodies, so that justice and mental health are achieved socially, people are accused of being violent. Spreading facts (and not opinions, misfounded judgements) is rightful and healthy, I believe.

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Posted: 08 April 2006 05:49 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]  
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wow….frankr….its is amazing how well you really know me (and my kind).....all from my one or two posts….and uncanny how much you know about…...what I know…... as well!!!
It is almost like you are Tom Cruise and I am Matt Louwer…and you are explaining psycology to me.
Is god telling you what I know?? Stop it god!!!!
Arggggggggggggggg!!!!!
Get out of my mind you…....pesky ...sadistic deity you….....

Sorry…I just had to get that off my chest…......

So for all you of the non-delusional state of mind…any compilations of stupid bible stuff out there? I did find one link off the Landover Babtist church site that is pretty damn funny….will post later.

Frankr…you and god chill ....okay..

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Posted: 08 April 2006 06:19 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]  
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Blackdaug
What are you talking about? I was responding to your post. Methink the lady protests too much. I know this is counterintuitive to the self congradulatory atheist set but you write a post people respond. This is how a forum works. I don’t need God to tell me about your ignorance, you let me on to your ignorance from your post.  I didn’t think you were even trying to hide it.

I was not trying to explain psychology. I was trying to point out the logical fallacy in your reasoning. I know I don’t want to spoil your intellectual and witty criticisms by holding you to the principles of reason.

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Posted: 08 April 2006 06:32 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]  
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.Sorry about that…I just read frankrs posts and jumped in with a reply. Then I went back and read some of the really intelligent posts that were up after that.
It’s just that attitude that really sets me off. Almost every zealot I have ever met has it as well. They instantly presume atheism comes from some lack of knowledge…if only you knew what I know. They range from the snake handling inbreds, to pseudo intellectual sounding poseurs like frankr. Frankly, frankr….it is just getting old.
I am 45 years of age and have been an atheist all of my life. I have read the bible and found it to be every bit the scary ranting’s of Iron Age mad men that it truly is. Until recently, I was quite content to let you and yours go about spewing your nonsense unopposed by any argument,,,but as Sam points out, the world is no longer safe with the lunatics running the asylum anymore.
So I am looking at new and funny ways to challenge you and your delusional framework at every turn; and in doing so, I am seeing a growing number of people who feel just as I do about just how ridiculous that framework is in the 21rst century.
The really puzzling thing is how persistent you trolls are on these sites?? I see the same names on blogs everywhere; ever ready to jump in with the same inane defense of religion. As was pointed out by one of the earlier comments, I can’t imagine wasting my time on a Christian web site refuting their drivel.  I think your own insecurities drive you here…Inside the trolls the voice of reason is screaming and you have to come here and spout dogmatic trash to drown it out.
I think the stats are wrong; there is a real trend toward enlightenment going on and it is picking up steam. I think the internet is the carrier. The antibodies are growing that are going to cure us of the virus that has plagued man through the ages…..and the virus knows…..

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Posted: 08 April 2006 07:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]  
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[quote author=“Mia”]V… it would seem a good idea to place all premises—whether religious, political, scientific, whatever—under the microscope periodically, throughout one’s life. We’re spoon-fed our ongoing opinions by the media and the politicians just as surely as we’re spoon-fed God myths. I wonder if most people who undergo a religious overhaul are more or less likely to take a harder look at their political premises, too? It was true in my case, but maybe that’s partly because the two issues felt so interlocked in relation to recent world events…

Hi Mia. Couldn’t agree more.  I would like to point out that the one dominion of knowledge-making for which it is routine to re-examine premises, indeed the evidence, logic and conclusions drawn, is science.  The other realms you mention are only rarely subjected to scrutiny or re-evaluation.  In the case of religion, this is actively thwarted.  The most recent example of how religion actively dismisses looking at discrepancies and generating questions that can be the basis of re-examination is the recently described Judas gospel.  It tells quite a different story from the approved biblical version of the events leading to the death of Jesus.  It will be extremely interesting to see how the religious community reacts to this piece of evidence.

Science, and to some degree several other intellectual fields that have science-like methods of scholarship (e.g. history) is a process obsessed with constantly re-evaluating prior conclusions, etc.  It is because we are always discovering nuances and contradictions in extant theories that cause us to ask why.  In ideologically-driven politics, economics, and especially religion, the method of choice is rationalization, ignoring contrary evidence, to come to the previously believed conclusion.

So I guess, once again I am suggesting the the best offense against ignorance, which I claim is the reason for these other domains having no rigour, is good solid science-based education.  I do not say every person needs to be a scientist, or know science so deeply that they can “talk” science.  I mean they should be sufficiently exposed to science in all its forms, and the story the scientific world-view has to tell about reality that they “understand” the basis for concepts like evolution.  This has been missing in our school systems.  The norm in K-12 ed, and even in higher ed, is to teach the sciences as if someone where planning to become one.  This, more than anything, turns kids off on listening to the story so they walk away just glad all the mindless memorizing is over and they can forget what they ostensibly learned.

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Posted: 08 April 2006 07:40 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]  
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[quote author=“FaixaPreta”]What is surprising is the sheer number of God fearers on this message board.  I have zero compunction to visit a Christian website not only because of the stunted intellectual development of participants who populate such sites, but more importantly, I don’t have any doubts or questions about my own secular worldview.  For me to spend a nanosecond on a Christian website would be a complete and utter waste of time.  Likewise, people on this site more than likely have viewpoints that generally align with Sam’s, or are…….. searching.  I suspect that deep down, perhaps even at an unconscious level, the bible thumpers on this site are aware of the absurdity of their worldview.  In spite of the bluster, they should be pitied, and while frustrating to do, our help.  Why else would they be here?  They are truly lost souls.

There might be another explanation (though I certainly agree they are lost minds).  They may be here to do what they have been admonished to do—proselytize.  They may be thinking the same thing, that some on this board have thought about them, in reverse.  They think there may be a lost “soul” or two here that their “enlghtened” arguments may tip over to their side of the fence.  Based on all of the postings I’ve read by the Champ and the pattern of discourse (I use the term loosely in this context) of frankr, before shutting off the noise, I’m betting that that is their conscious motive.

I’m also betting that continually attacking their logic, evidence, etc., only steels them in their task.  But, hey, if your missionary spirit moves you to try to save them, go for it!

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Posted: 08 April 2006 08:03 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]  
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I asked..and so I received:
 
The atheists of silicon valley have an amazingly comprehensive site. Thousands of bible quotes.

 
(I found it by googleing “wacky, bible, stuff”.)

RE: the abundance of christian trolls discussion

As Sam points out in one of his talks, the more succinct and convincing your arguments are, the more likely you are an agent of the devil. If the trolls are truly here to save souls, they must be horrified at the lack of conversion going on. You godless infidels!
Freud would call it a neurotic compulsion. If others believe in your delusion, you are not delusional. I still prefer the meme or virus comparison. The virus of religion is compelled to replicate for survival. They are compelled to proselytize, to perpetuate the gene. The body may die, but the parasite lives on.

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Posted: 08 April 2006 08:28 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]  
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[quote author=“veracitatus”][quote author=“FaixaPreta”]What is surprising is the sheer number of God fearers on this message board.  I have zero compunction to visit a Christian website not only because of the stunted intellectual development of participants who populate such sites, but more importantly, I don’t have any doubts or questions about my own secular worldview.  For me to spend a nanosecond on a Christian website would be a complete and utter waste of time.  Likewise, people on this site more than likely have viewpoints that generally align with Sam’s, or are…….. searching.  I suspect that deep down, perhaps even at an unconscious level, the bible thumpers on this site are aware of the absurdity of their worldview.  In spite of the bluster, they should be pitied, and while frustrating to do, our help.  Why else would they be here?  They are truly lost souls.

 

There might be another explanation (though I certainly agree they are lost minds).  They may be here to do what they have been admonished to do—proselytize.  They may be thinking the same thing, that some on this board have thought about them, in reverse.  They think there may be a lost “soul” or two here that their “enlghtened” arguments may tip over to their side of the fence.  Based on all of the postings I’ve read by the Champ and the pattern of discourse (I use the term loosely in this context) of frankr, before shutting off the noise, I’m betting that that is their conscious motive.

I’m also betting that continually attacking their logic, evidence, etc., only steels them in their task.  But, hey, if your missionary spirit moves you to try to save them, go for it!

True enough.  However, I would venture that the souls *saved* from this site is a very round number.  If they’re truly interested in converts, it seems their energies would be best directed at prisons, homeless shelters, any of the various 12-step programs in existence, or anyplace where people on the margins of society tend to congregate.  Or possibly third world countries, where, through a combination of hucksterism and bribery (I’ll give you a pair of blue jeans and a bowl of rice if you help me build a church) the evangelical movement claims a steady stream of new baptisms.  The rate of return from a site like this bound to be low (and more than likely – zero).

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Posted: 08 April 2006 08:38 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]  
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One of the things I liked about the KKK analogy (the one that started the thread). is its use of a pop culture icon to attack the silliness of the institution itself. I am seeing more and more of it in the mainstream media and on the fringes. Southpark is always on it of course, but the Simpsons also does it. (Help me Jebus!!). I really think this is the way it will end for them. The culture as a whole will just see it for the ridiculous sham it is. Scholars will sit in ivory towers bantering Russel and Kant, but the vast population of pod people never hear those discussions.
I think the culture is starting to see the danger of following these idiots in to the abyss and reacting to it all over the media.

[ Edited: 08 April 2006 08:49 AM by ]
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Posted: 08 April 2006 08:45 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]  
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True enough. However, I would venture that the souls *saved* from this site is a very round number. If they’re truly interested in converts, it seems their energies would be best directed at prisons, homeless shelters, any of the various 12-step programs in existence, or anyplace where people on the margins of society tend to congregate. Or possibly third world countries, where, through a combination of hucksterism and bribery (I’ll give you a pair of blue jeans and a bowl of rice if you help me build a church) the evangelical movement claims a steady stream of new baptisms


The story of 2 institutions in this country:

In one of these institutions, the longer you are there, the more likely you are to convert, if you are there long enough, you are almost certain to find Jesus or Mohammed. (96% after 10 years)

In the other, the longer you are there, the less religious you become, until past a certain time, fewer than 5 percent will be identified as religious.

You know the answer:

number one: Prison
number two: College

[ Edited: 08 April 2006 09:19 AM by ]
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Posted: 08 April 2006 09:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]  
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[quote author=“blackdaug”][
You know the answer:

number one: Prison
number two: College


Thank God I went to college :wink:

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Posted: 09 April 2006 07:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]  
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As stated elsewhere and often, I claim the one best thing we can do to end the tyranny of religion over the minds of humans is a science-core education with ample servings of the humanities.  This can be accomplished in a fashion similar to that proposed by E. O. Wilson in his book Consilience.  Highly recommend it to all.

PS. means k-12 as well as college.

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Posted: 05 May 2006 05:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]  
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This is my first post, having discovered Mr. Harris’ book only last week…Mia, I was 39 before I had what was, for me, a terrible epiphany. I suddenly realized that what I thought was true and right for the first part of my life made no sense, and the doubts and inconsistencies that I had tried mightly to suppress for all that time were more valid than the beliefs I had been so fervent about.

I had another revelation shortly after the 9/11 attacks. I had been disavowed from my former fanatical religion for 2 years by that time, and had lost my family members because of it.  I knew, even at that point, that religious beliefs were at the bottom of this attack. It filled me with rage that anyone could use such an excuse as their “faith” to justify the killing of little girls on their way to Disneyland. What was worse was realizing that the members of my family were no different in their religious fervor, for they believe that God is going to kill a lot of children,  and that it will be justified because their parents aren’t believers.  Even though the faith they proclaim is supposedly non-violent, it does not promote love for one’s fellow man, except when that fellow man happens to share the same interpretation of their supposedly holy book.

To the comment about not knowing God….I had to laugh. I spent many years getting to know the Bible, and the God represented by it, intimately. I know him, and I cannot see any reason why I should even respect him, let alone worship him, and lastly, there is no reason I can find to even believe in his existence. There are many, however, that I can see and reason on to disprove it.

This is a long post, but I am just so relieved to find people who can think and who want to think. It’s not too late for a person even if they are almost 40.

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Posted: 05 May 2006 08:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]  
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[quote author=“surgikate”]
. . . a terrible epiphany.

What an apt description. The Believers seem to think it’s some sort of hedonism that tempts us to shed faith, that we’re seeking the easy way out. . .  They have no idea.

Try life without a net, death without an afterlife; try losing family or friends because you’re no longer holding up your end of the ‘fairytale maintenance’ agreement. See how pleasant the first month of that is, without crutches or supernatural pain-relievers.

The fear and sadness (over those inevitable losses) is starting to fade a lot now, but there is nothing easy about self-deprogramming. I can see now that it’s Believers that take the hedonistic route, while non-theists have to be unflinching out here in the real world.


Anyway, welcome surgikate, happy to have you here wink.


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