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Sam's truthdig interview
Posted: 07 May 2006 08:35 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 46 ]  
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[quote author=“homunculus”]It’s a fictitious name, Frank. I’m a fan of poetry and a certain amount of measured illusion—what can I say?

My parents named me Dave, by the way. I love the concept of a humunculous but that’s all it is (a concept).


Does the concept signify a reality? When I write to homunculus or dave I write (i think) to a reality. I use the name to signify an existing thing namely you. I am not writing to a name. I am writing to what the name signifies. I disagree with you I think the concept points to a reality.

[quote author=“surgikate”]homunculus is right…this is the simple concept frank…the book you are so worried about the “interpretation” of was written by men. Men who claimed to have communication with God. There were more than 66 books written of course, so some other men got together, much later, and decided which ones were “holy” and which weren’t. There is no valid reason to believe any of these people actually had a hotline to the Almighty, which means the authenticity of the book itself is in question. That also means….if the book is not authentic, then who cares whose interpretation is “right”?

Thanks surgikate. I do not question that the books of the Bible were written by men. I don’t think that is a proof or disproof of anything. The theory of evolution was written by a man does that make it false?

I will add you to the list of interpreters who know they are right and at the same time are tolerant of others. It all makes sense now surgikate. See when Iisbliss and homunculus said they their interpretation was right I really didn’t get it, but now that you say that they were right it all becomes clear. Thank you.

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Posted: 07 May 2006 09:45 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 47 ]  
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I don’t really think I want to be on your list of anything, frank. See, I used to be a lot like you, and I’m not very proud of it. So desperate to hold onto a mythology that I couldn’t even for a moment really think about whether someone else might be saying something that made sense. So, really, although your sarcasm is intensely irritating, I feel pity for what seems to be your need to flaunt your intolerance. My beliefs aren’t going to drive me to kill in the name of some fictitious deity. Unfortunately, the same cannot be said for most religious belief systems, or their supposedly holy books.

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Posted: 08 May 2006 06:25 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 48 ]  
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[quote author=“surgikate”]I don’t really think I want to be on your list of anything, frank. See, I used to be a lot like you, and I’m not very proud of it. So desperate to hold onto a mythology that I couldn’t even for a moment really think about whether someone else might be saying something that made sense.

Kate
Scientists (if you consider psychiatry a science) have a name for this phenomena. It is called transference. Just so we are clear, we are alike in many ways but not in our beliefs. We are both humans and we are both made in the image of God and we were both bought a great price. However you were never like me in the way you claim. You like many at this site seem to belong to one of these strange christian sects. This is not traditional Christianity. No Christian should rejoice at the sufferings of others. Its a sign that you belong to a wacky religious group.

Why am I the intolerant one? You change one belief system for another belief system and this is proof that you are tolerant. You imply anyone with faith is crazy, you say all belief is the foundation for murder and mayhem. Yet you are the tolerant one. What belief system are you tolerant of except your own?

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Posted: 08 May 2006 07:29 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 49 ]  
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[quote author=“surgikate”]The irony of this, of course, is that my family feels I have lost my mind. They are wrong, of course….I have found it, at last.

surgikate,

I know exactly what you mean!  I’m in my twenties now.  When I left home for college, I was the perfect image (but didn’t have the perfect mentality) of a Christian.  I knew I had issues with it, but it was too expensive to fight my parents while I was still at home (when they can ground you, cut off your allowance, take away car keys, etc) when college and freedom were so close (and I liked playing in the citywide church basketball league :wink: ).

Freshman year I was finally able to do my own thing; I didn’t go to church once, read Ayn Rand, took a class on Eastern religions, and came home the next summer with a Jewish girlfriend.  Well, that last especially caused quite a fuss.  I was told that the Church doesn’t approve; my response was that I, then, did not approve of the Church.  My parents wanted me to talk to a priest about my choices and (finally tying in your quote!) a psychiatrist!  They were 100% serious.


My favorite two of their objections:
But this is who you have been (a Christian) your entire life.  How can you just choose to throw that away?
-No.  It’s never who I was, it’s who you decided I was, who you made me.
You’re really upsetting your grandparents.  Don’t you care what they think?
-Should I care what they think more than what I think?  Should I care what they think more than they care what I think?

Anyway, you seem pretty secure in your new mindset, but if you’re looking for some deconversion stories or encouraging atheist ideas (throwing this out there because your posts make it sound like you might appreciate them), Mia started an excellent thread titled “Your Deconversion Story” under the “Faith (General Issues)” tab.  As I write this, it looks like the last post to her thread was Tuesday, April 25th, to help you find it.

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Posted: 08 May 2006 07:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 50 ]  
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I should know this, but I do like the diversity of perspective and enjoy hearing most perspectives.  It’s like poetry, in many ways.  Can anyone tell me, from their perspective, why frank, TC, troublinka, and others continue to try sooooo hard in this forum.  They are not salmon, and this is not a stream.  It does however remind me of intellectual “masturbation,” but I think that’s in another thread.  rolleyes

As to the reference in the subject line… I have taken to quoting some interesting artists lately (not sure why, but these tunes seem to come to mind at times when a void of logic arises), and after frankr’s last rant, I heard Brian Eno singing… “Blank Frank.” 

Later.  god

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Posted: 08 May 2006 08:43 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 51 ]  
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[quote author=“god”]
I have taken to quoting some interesting artists lately (not sure why, but these tunes seem to come to mind at times when a void of logic arises)

You must have songs going through your mind all day long

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Posted: 08 May 2006 09:11 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 52 ]  
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You’re still there?  Now THAT is stamina!
I’m sure at some level, frankr, you are a well meaning, nice chap.  I do, sometimes, enjoy your sense of humor too!  You are so quick witted.  But then, what do you actually have to contribute in the face of such unbending resistance to the teachings of all your enlightened “Profits.”  Note the intentional godly artistic license there.  smile 
In response to your witty quip, considering the abounding void of logic worldwide, I do hear music constantly.  I only pick out the tunes that seem most appropriate to the momentary focus I choose to log, and in turn, pass into the void.
Now I have a question… let me set it up for you.
I particularly liked a thread Mia jumped in on, whereby she asked, in so many words, what would it take for those so committed to their religious beliefs to at once realize, that the scripture they hold so dear was actually coming to fruition.  I dare say, it would be quite upsetting, but I am sure YOU can imagine what it would be like to witness the miracle of a second coming, (or third as it may well be now), and your journey to…. is it heaven?  I do wonder.  Where is that.  I must have missed it on the way here.  So what say you.  What sign are you waiting for, or what exactly would you “believe” so that you know, and are absolutely sure, that your savior has arrived.  Tell me what he looks like too…  I await your honest reply.

Later. god

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Posted: 08 May 2006 09:36 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 53 ]  
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Frankr:

This is not traditional Christianity. No Christian should rejoice at the sufferings of others. Its a sign that you belong to a wacky religious group.

St. Thomas Aquinas,  Angelic Doctor of the Roman Catholic Church:
 

Such is the heaven of the ordinary creed; if it be not something worse still, an exulting over the torments of the lost. To show that this is no mere figure of speech, I append a few extracts. They are from sources so widely apart as a medieval school man, and a modern puritan. 

“That the saints may enjoy their beatitude more thoroughly, and give more abundant thanks for it to God, a perfect sight of the punishment of the damned is granted them.” - S. Thomas -Summa iii.

(I cannot verify the accuracy of the quotation, much less the translation. Project Gutenberg does not seem to have Summa Theologica III by Saint Thomas Aquinas, but only I and II. My Latin is minimal.)

The last famous Christian we will look at here is the medieval theologian and Doctor of the Church, St. Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274). We are already familiar with his work from earlier. Aquinas was subsequently given the title “Angelic Doctor” by the Roman Catholic Church. Like all his predecessors, the morbid sadomasochistic streak did not elude him. He imagined that one of the rewards of heavenly bliss is to be able to witness the suffering of the damned in hell. In his own words:

That the saints may enjoy their beatitude more fully, a perfect sight is granted them of the punishment of the damned.

  (The URL is too long for this screen.)

It is wise to be cautious about a man who worships a cruel God, a god who prefers justice to mercy, a god who cannot take responsibility for his own errors. That worshipful man will practice cruelty in his God’s name and call it justice and faithfulness and obedience and following the divine example. One of these cruelties is threatening people with eternal pain in a hell so monstrous that only the presence of its Creator could make it worse.

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Posted: 08 May 2006 10:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 54 ]  
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I think the quote false. I have seen it before but have yet to find it in the summa. I google and get no reference. I would be very surpirsed if he said it.
One can search the Summa here   and I see no quote resembling the one you speak of. Thomas was a humanist it doesn’t make sense.

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Posted: 08 May 2006 11:34 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 55 ]  
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Blah freaking blah.  Frankr… give it up.  Watching you backpeddal is most amusing, but tiresome.  Keep searching.  There are numerous examples for you to choose from.

Later.  god

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Posted: 08 May 2006 12:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 56 ]  
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well, frank, I wasn’t a Roman Catholic, no. But even then I was smarter than to take up with a church whose leader signed a concordat with Hitler and Mussolini. Or one that regularly burned people for possessing a Bible in the vernacular. Or one that “converted” natives by the sword.  Or one that hides the criminal actions of its priests by sending them into unwarned parishes. Do you make your statements imagining I don’t know what’s written in the book that you supposedly hold holy? I assure you that is not the case.  Your statement about “classic” Christianity is laughable in light of the actions of some of the earliest popes as contrasted to those of Christians who were burned as torches in Roman stadiums for refusing to deify the emperor.  At least they weren’t blatant hypocrites.
I do not have to believe your mythology to be tolerant, to some degree, of it. I don’t think rational human beings on this planet need to be particularly tolerant of those who seem bent on killing everyone who doesn’t believe the things they do. Your circular reasoning makes me laugh. Have you ever had a linear thought in our entire life, or is that a foreign concept to you as well?

[ Edited: 08 May 2006 04:14 PM by ]
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Posted: 08 May 2006 01:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 57 ]  
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My point is that you are not tolerant of it. I would say even less tolerant than I am of your atheism.  Is that linear enough for you. I am glad I make you laugh. I love to spead joy.  I do not say your unfamiliar with the bible, I say you are unfamiliar with any cogent theology.

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Posted: 08 May 2006 01:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 58 ]  
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and frank…I don’t see why you think I rejoice in the sufferings of others, or that anything I said was indicative of that. If anything, I pity deeply anyone who cannot free their mind, and wish wholeheartedly that there was some way I could help them do so.

I don’t at this time belong to any religious sect. I am an atheist. The religion I belonged to did not even believe in hell as a place of torment, which I believe is the doctrine your sect supports? Where your god of love tortures people for all eternity just because they had the unwisdom to pick the wrong branch of the religious tree to sit on. Even the screwy american justice system would think that eternal torment in retribution for even 70, 80 or 90 years of vigorous evil would be cruel and unusual. Strange that the created would have a better sense of justice than the creator.

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Posted: 08 May 2006 01:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 59 ]  
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frank, I’m sorry that I was under the impression that for Christians, the Bible is the ultimate theology. I must have forgotten that this is not the case for Roman Catholics.

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Posted: 08 May 2006 01:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 60 ]  
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[quote author=“frankr”]My point is that you are not tolerant of it. I would say even less tolerant than I am of your atheism.  Is that linear enough for you. I am glad I make you laugh. I love to spead joy.  I do not say your unfamiliar with the bible, I say you are unfamiliar with any cogent theology.

no, I am NOT tolerant of any religion that has demonstrated itself so intolerant that it will torture and kill anyone who dares to have an original thought. That doesn’t mean I will persecute its members, but I don’t support their mythological views.

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