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How is Christ the fulfillment of the law?
Posted: 22 August 2010 09:12 PM   [ Ignore ]  
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Got a quick question…
How exactly is Christ the fulfillment of the law?

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Posted: 06 September 2010 02:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]  
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seeking_truth - 23 August 2010 01:12 AM

Got a quick question…
How exactly is Christ the fulfillment of the law?

(Andrew):  He’s not.  There’s nothing in Jewish scripture that even hints that the Law will ever be “fulfilled”—whatever that means.  The Law, in it’s entirety, is eternally binding.

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Posted: 07 September 2010 06:33 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]  
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There’s nothing in Jewish scripture that even hints
that the Law will ever be “fulfilled”—whatever that means.

Excellent point… Thank you Andrew.
He could only “fulfill” something that had been foretold.  So, writing that Jesus was the “fulfillment of the law” was merely a technique they used to render unpopular portions of Jewish law no longer necessary - while still trying to make it sound as if their messiah somehow “fulfilled” something. 

Really, the only thing Jesus should have “fulfilled” was the Messianic prohpesy - but he failed to do this (every jot and tittle of it).

Okay, so I’m good there. 
Now I have another question… 

The gospel writers, who came along after Paul had set the stage for Christianity - created the “backstory” for Jesus (or at least that is the perception) - right?  So why would they write passages like Mark 9:1/Matthew 16:28/Luke 9:27 (There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom) when they knew Jesus was already long gone and it could be seen as false prophecy?

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Posted: 24 September 2010 05:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]  
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seeking_truth - 23 August 2010 01:12 AM

Got a quick question…
How exactly is Christ the fulfillment of the law?

The punishment for most, if not all, of the sins in the OT is death (the wages of sin is death).  Jesus died upon the cross, fulfilling the penalties of the law by providing a death by which we could all avoid the harsh penalties and hopefully live better lives in spite of our inevitable sins (or something).

While this does make sense, I’m with Christopher Hitchens in viewing vicarious redemption as a thoroughly immoral concept.

As far as the false prophecy bit . . . there is a bit more to this one.  Check out Robert Price for a scholarly answer, I won’t bother butchering his work here.

Of course, this is all complete nonsense when you take a step back, but some concepts in christianity do seem to have at least the semblance of internal coherency.

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Posted: 04 December 2010 10:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]  
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“I’m with Christopher Hitchens in viewing vicarious redemption as a thoroughly immoral concept.” I love this quote!
http://www.samharris.org/forum/smileys/#

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Posted: 08 December 2010 09:43 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]  
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This epistle is a discourse upon the principles of Christianity, in doctrine and practice. The design appears to be, to refute and guard against erroneous and unholy tenets, principles, and practices, especially such as would lower the Godhead of Christ, and the reality and power of his sufferings and death, as an atoning sacrifice; and against the assertion that believers being saved by grace, are not required to obey the commandments. This epistle also stirs up all who profess to know God, to have communion with him, and to believe in him, and that they walk in holiness, not in sin, showing that a mere outward profession is nothing, without the evidence of a holy life and conduct. It also helps forward and excites real Christians to communion with God and the Lord Jesus Christ, to constancy in the true faith, and to purity of life.

he apostle prefaces his epistle to believers in general, with evident testimonies to Christ, for promoting their happiness and joy. (1-4) The necessity of a life of holiness, in order to communion with God, is shown. (5-10)

Verses 1-4: That essential Good, that uncreated Excellence, which had been from the beginning, from eternity, as equal with the Father, and which at length appeared in human nature for the salvation of sinners, was the great subject concerning which the apostle wrote to his brethren. The apostles had seen Him while they witnessed his wisdom and holiness, his miracles, and love and mercy, during some years, till they saw him crucified for sinners, and afterwards risen from the dead. They touched him, so as to have full proof of his resurrection. This Divine Person, the Word of life, the Word of God, appeared in human nature, that he might be the Author and Giver of eternal life to mankind, through the redemption of his blood, and the influence of his new-creating Spirit. The apostles declared what they had seen and heard, that believers might share their comforts and everlasting advantages. They had free access to God the Father. They had a happy experience of the truth in their souls, and showed its excellence in their lives. This communion of believers with the Father and the Son, is begun and kept up by the influences of the Holy Spirit. The benefits Christ bestows, are not like the scanty possessions of the world, causing jealousies in others; but the joy and happiness of communion with God is all-sufficient, so that any number may partake of it; and all who are warranted to say, that truly their fellowship is with the Father, will desire to lead others to partake of the same blessedness.

Verses 5-10: A message from the Lord Jesus, the Word of life, the eternal Word, we should all gladly receive. The great God should be represented to this dark world, as pure and perfect light. As this is the nature of God, his doctrines and precepts must be such. And as his perfect happiness cannot be separated from his perfect holiness, so our happiness will be in proportion to our being made holy. To walk in darkness, is to live and act against religion. God holds no heavenly fellowship or intercourse with unholy souls. There is no truth in their profession; their practice shows its folly and falsehood. The eternal Life, the eternal Son, put on flesh and blood, and died to wash us from our sins in his own blood, and procures for us the sacred influences by which sin is to be subdued more and more, till it is quite done away. While the necessity of a holy walk is insisted upon, as the effect and evidence of the knowledge of God in Christ Jesus, the opposite error of self-righteous pride is guarded against with equal care. All who walk near to God, in holiness and righteousness, are sensible that their best days and duties are mixed with sin. God has given testimony to the sinfulness of the world, by providing a sufficient, effectual Sacrifice for sin, needed in all ages; and the sinfulness of believers themselves is shown, by requiring them continually to confess their sins, and to apply by faith to the blood of that Sacrifice. Let us plead guilty before God, be humble, and willing to know the worst of our case. Let us honestly confess all our sins in their full extent, relying wholly on his mercy and truth through the righteousness of Christ, for a free and full forgiveness, and our deliverance from the power and practice of sin.

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Posted: 08 December 2010 09:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]  
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to ‘seeking the truth’
Got a quick question…
How exactly is Christ the fulfillment of the law?

A quick answer -
Firstly - re ‘The Law”

Because he was perfect in all that he did/said/thought
OR [to put it another way] -
he fulfilled God’s requirements perfectly - 
OR
He KEPT the law [i.e.the mosaic Law] completely - didnt make any mistakes.

Secondly - [the extended meaning]
Not only did he keep THE RULES, he fulfilled the SPIRIT BEHIND the law

How was he able to DO this?
Because “He and the Father were ONE” God’s spirit was in Jesus.  They thought, spoke and acted as one, had the same aims etc.

WHAT WAS THE POINT OF ALL THIS?

BECAUSE it is all ‘God’s fault’ that human beings cannot keep the rules, [he made us that way] God took responsibility for the situation he had caused, and suffered the same punishment that humans do. Took the consequences, without flinching.

Jesus was the first MAN to demonstrate that violence/suffering/death do not necessarily destroy the human spirit - the best features of humanity are indestructable, live on.

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Posted: 09 December 2010 03:10 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]  
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1 Corinthians 1: 1 - 9
1 Corinthians 1:1-9: Enriched in Everything
Introduction
At the moment many have been inspired by the prayer of Jabez, “O, that thou wouldst bless me.” But those who believe can truly say, “O thou hast blessed me indeed”. This was how Paul felt and he wrote to the Corintians to remind them of this.
Corinth was famed for its wealth and commerce, which were chiefly due to its situation between the Ionian and Aegean Seas on the isthmus connecting the Peloponese with Greece. It was the capital of the province Achaia.
Amidst wealth, however, morals were notoriously bad. It was noted for its immorality and even the heathen used the expression “to Corinthianize”, meaning “to play the wanton”. Out of this environment God called the church to live in holiness.
One can liken it to the situation to the way things are going in Durban and Cape Town, where “red light areas” and “sex tourism” are being promoted.

God used Paul to found this church on his first missionary journey (Acts 18:1-17).
In the church were
? Many Gentiles (1Cor. 12:2), and some Jews (Acts 18:8)
? Converts chiefly of the humbler classes (1Cor 1:26, etc.). Crispus (1Cor 1:14 Acts 18:8. Erastus, and Gaius (Caius), but some of rank (Romans 16:23).
? Those coming from a background of corruption, temptation and Greek philosophy.
? Emissaries from the Judaizers of Palestine, who attacked the apostolic authority of Paul (1Co 9:1,2 2Co 10:1,7,8). Some gave themselves out for apostles (2Cor. 11:5,13).
? There was a party spirit. Some avowed themselves to be followers of Paul and others of Apollos.
The household of Chloe wrote to Paul about the problems and he replies writes to them

1 Paul, a called apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
Paul identified himself as the writer of this epistle and described himself as one who was called to be a messenger of Jesus Christ through the will of God, which was that the Gospel (good news) should be preached throughout the world.

The place of writing is Ephesus (16:8) at the time of Pentecost AD 57. With Paul was a brother called Sosthenes. A man called by this name is mentioned in Acts 18:12-17, who was the chief ruler of the synagogue at Corinth. He was seized and beaten by the mob in the presence of Gallio, the Roman governor, when he refused to proceed against Paul at the instigation of the Jews. But we are not certain know if this is the same man.

Paul called those who worked with him and the fellow believers “brothers”. They were to see themselves as a close-knit fellowship as children of God. A “brother” was expected to live a holy life in Christ and to share His love. It also meant that one would not place oneself above another, but rather seek to build one another up in the Lord.

2. to the church of God which is in Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called-out saints, with all those in every place who call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours.
The word “church” means “called out”. God called out the believers from the world to be his people. “Church” is used more often in the singular and relates to those who meet in a particular place e.g. the church which is in Corinth” or in a house.1Cor. 16.9.
Church is also use in the plural ,“churches”, to include churches in other places.
Then, it is used in a general sense to describe all who are in Christ. Paul said that he persecuted the church of God (1 Cor. 15.9).

The church are those who are sanctified in Jesus Christ. They have been separated unto Christ, indwelt by the Holy spirit. This has been done already. They are “in Christ”.
Paul’s letter is also addressed to all those in every place who call on the name of Jesus Christ who is our Lord. There is one Lord of all. These “called ones” are those who also call on the name of the Lord and pray to Him as their Lord.
When we call Him Lord we acknowledge Him to be our master and that we belong to Him. The glory belongs to Him. He is the Lord of glory, whom the princes of this world crucified. Paul will show that it is the Lord who gives workers and gifts to the church and it is out of place for us to exalt ourselves above another. There are many workers but one Lord. He is the only judge. He is all powerful, such that He can raise the dead. The earth belongs to him and everything in it. We can only do things if the Lord permits.

3 Grace be to you, and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Paul is always speaking of God’s grace. He mentions grace in his greeting and benediction. God’s grace is towards them. “The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.” 1 Cor. 16:23. Grace was the theme of Paul in all His writings. He could never get over the wonderful riches of grace towards sinners. We owe everything to grace.
? Grace is given by Jesus Christ. 1Cor 1:4
? It is by the grace of God that “I am what I am” 1 Cor15: 10. Not anything else.
? It is grace that gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 1Cor 15:57

We find Peace of God when we are assured of His salvation through Christ and so fearing nothing from God. God made peace when He gave His Son to die in our place. We are to live in that peace. 1 Corinthians 7:15
? God is not the author of confusion, but of peace. 1 Corinthians 14:33. There may be many who would confuse us, but the gospel of peace is simple.
Paul speaks of God as “our: Father”. It is He who gives us life physically and spiritually and all that is needed to live.
1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
1 Corinthians 15:24 Then comes the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
4-5. I thank my God always on your behalf for the grace of God given you in Jesus Christ, that in everything you are enriched by Him, in all speech and in all knowledge;

Thanks is to be given always for the grace of God given to us in Jesus.
? If I by grace am a partaker, then I need to give thanks. 1 Cor.10: 30.
? Even Jesus gave thanks when He gave out the elements at the Lord’s Table.
? Paul gave thanks to God that He could speak in tongues. 1 Cor.14: 18
? They were enriched in everything, including speech ( the word) and knowledge (knowing about the things of God).

Paul speaks later of the word of wisdom from God, the word of the Gospel that saves those who believe. He speaks of words and wisdom that the Holy Spirit teaches.
In many, their speech is puffed up with pride, but here are words from God. 1 Cor.2: 13
The Spirit gives the word of wisdom and of knowledge 1Cor. 12:8.
If we to keep God’s word in memory we will be saved.

God given knowledge is good, but we have to be careful because knowledge can make us proud. 1Cor.8:1. Knowledge is something we grow in and not all have the same level of knowledge, so we must remember where our knowledge comes from and exercise love rather than be proud. 8:10

6-8. even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you; so that you come behind in no gift, waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ. He shall also confirm you to the end, that you may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
The testimony of Christ is confirmed in you (1:8). So it can be said that God has not left you behind in any gift while you are waiting for Jesus Christ to be revealed.
The gifts manifest Christ. Whenever they met they were to use their gifts to show Christ to one another. They should share in the truth of there faith and demonstrate His love, while they awaited His return. Then, when He appears, they would see Him as He is and the gifts will loose their significance.

Paul now uses the future tense to say that God shall confirm (establish) them to the end. Blameless means “that cannot be called to account”. In the day when Jesus will return from heaven believers will be blameless before Him.

9 God is faithful, by whom you were called to the fellowship of His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord. How can one be confident that this will happen? The answer is the faithfulness of God.

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Posted: 09 December 2010 04:11 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]  
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Dear Mr JohnnyGuy Re your last 2 posts

I’m sorry, but you seem to be having a conversation with yourself.
Why are you talking about 1st Corinthians?
Nobody else is.
I thought we were asked a simple quick question.

[Or am i missing something important here?]

[the history is very interesting - thank-you - but off the topic.]

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Posted: 09 December 2010 04:49 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]  
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There have been several threads on this.  Here’s an old one.

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Posted: 09 December 2010 11:14 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]  
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Jesus is the Fulfillment of the Law

One of the items found in the Ark of the Covenant is the stone tablets upon which the Ten Commandments are written. These laws were presented to the people by Moses. Since then, Jesus has come to fulfill the law. The following scripture reinforces this point:


Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. (Matthew 5:17-18)


Jesus teaches that the law was given to us so that we would know the things that are offensive to God, and change our nature based on this knowledge. However, we often defaulted to blindly following these rules without conviction and without changing our nature. Paul correctly describes this condition in some of his disciples when he wrote:


You are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read by all men; clearly you are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart. (2 Corinthians 3:2)


Saint Paul Preaching

Therefore in Jesus, the law (the Ten Commandments written on stone tablets) is perfected because He extends the law to the to include the nature of our heart. Therefore, in accepting Jesus as our Savior, and through the power of the Holy Spirit, our hearts are changed, which means that we have adopted a higher standard. This standard eliminates the physical act of sinning while also eliminating the desire to do evil. The following scripture demonstrates this point:


For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment. But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire. Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny. You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery. But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. (Matthew 5:20-30)

 


Jesus Confronting the Scribes and Pharisees

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Posted: 09 December 2010 11:15 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]  
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Andrew - 09 December 2010 09:49 AM

There have been several threads on this.  Here’s an old one.

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Posted: 09 December 2010 11:16 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]  
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Jesus fulfilled the law that was at first written on stone tablets, through the love and compassion that is instilled into the hearts of men by the power of the Holy Spirit. Through this teaching we understand that looking at a woman with lust in our hearts is also adultery. Simply refraining from the act itself is insufficient as it is our heart that must be changed. Jesus replaced blind obedience to the law with real change in the character and nature of men that no longer blindly follow rules of acceptable conduct, but rather, through the conforming of their hearts to the nature of God:


This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them, then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.” (Hebrews 10:16-17)


In this regard, we are conformed to be like Him.

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Posted: 09 December 2010 04:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]  
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thanks Johnnyguy.  That was beautiful.
I think it’s much better when you use your own language.  Atheists are ‘allergic’ to scripture quotes and will just ignore them. Also it is much harder to find the bit that answers the question if you present 2 pages of verbage - the needle-in-a-haystack problem

Can I ask the moderator to notify the first guy [‘searching for truth’] if that has not already been done?
Thanks-eddie

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Posted: 09 December 2010 07:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]  
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eddie - 09 December 2010 09:12 PM

Atheists are ‘allergic’ to scripture quotes and will just ignore them.

(Andrew):  Excuse me?

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Posted: 09 December 2010 08:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]  
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Andrew

That has been my experience.  It is also the theme of the video that came second on Project-reason ‘Sit down, it’s just a book’ where other travellers in the train carriage drown out the would-be ‘preacher’ [Though I must admit i have never ever seen anyone stand in a train carriage and assault the ear-drums of fellow-passengers, and if such a scenario DID occur, I’m sure there would be better and kinder ways of dealing with him.]

Secondly - I bet YOU didnt read the two long passages. It reeks of ‘being preached at’ which atheists hate [That’s WHY they are atheists, according to what they say themselves.

Now of course, you are going to insist that you are quite different. Open-minded, polite, mild-mannered and of good language [no obscenities here, just mutual respect etc etc] Go on. Give us a laugh!!  The language on this forum would be exactly the same as on project-reason, if it were not for the commitment undertaken on first joining up, to refrain from name-calling etc.

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