Sam Harris

I think this is in the category of “cute question which might get someone to think” and I haven’t seen it asked enough.

I asked it on godcontention dot org (don’t know the policy on linking outside sites - please let me know if that’s not allowed) but it goes like this:

How do you know your god is good, and is not actually a satan making us think he is good?

If we assume there is a God, why can’t we assume he is actually Satan in disguise?  How would you know that he wasn’t Satan, and was actually a good God; wouldn’t Satan want you to believe he was actually good, in order to get him to do his evil agenda?

What human power do you have to distinguish between the two?

QuakePhil - 09 January 2012 03:20 PM

I think this is in the category of “cute question which might get someone to think” and I haven’t seen it asked enough.

I asked it on godcontention dot org (don’t know the policy on linking outside sites - please let me know if that’s not allowed) but it goes like this:

How do you know your god is good, and is not actually a satan making us think he is good?

If we assume there is a God, why can’t we assume he is actually Satan in disguise?  How would you know that he wasn’t Satan, and was actually a good God; wouldn’t Satan want you to believe he was actually good, in order to get him to do his evil agenda?

What human power do you have to distinguish between the two?

It is impossible to determine the qualities of anything that exists only in the imagination.
I can’t prove it but I’m pretty sure that Cinderella’s hair was actually dark brown and not blond as it is usually seen in books.

:-0

There are several passages in the Bible where God says that “He” (Why the supposed creator of the universe is some dude is beyond me.) confuses people on purpose.  Now I’m not sure what Satan’s gig is, but apparently we get a hint from the book of Job, and boy it sucked to be Job, but this revelation about God makes them sound not all that different from each other.

QuakePhil - 09 January 2012 03:20 PM

I think this is in the category of “cute question which might get someone to think” and I haven’t seen it asked enough.

I asked it on godcontention dot org (don’t know the policy on linking outside sites - please let me know if that’s not allowed) but it goes like this:

How do you know your god is good, and is not actually a satan making us think he is good?

If we assume there is a God, why can’t we assume he is actually Satan in disguise?  How would you know that he wasn’t Satan, and was actually a good God; wouldn’t Satan want you to believe he was actually good, in order to get him to do his evil agenda?

What human power do you have to distinguish between the two?

What evidence do we have?
Firstly if you have ever dealt with evil people you will find that they are all spiritually/mentally powerless. They rely on deceit and intimidation to trip up the person that they target for maltreatment. (If you are interested you can see here who they are http://kyrani99.wordpress.com/2012/01/21/the-toxic-people-and-their-networks-who-are-they/  and in the rest of the blog how they operate)

Why is this important? Satan is really nothing more than the “evil spirit” or evil mindset. There is no evil force that opposes God. (And I do not see any personal God. I don’t think that God is properly depicted in the Bible. Probably the worst problem with the Bible is that it has been corrupted from the OT onwards in a lot of areas, just as other religious texts have also been corrupted in places) The evil spirit or Satan, the adversary is just the collective that is created when two or more evil people form an alliance.

Secondly, our essential nature or what we might call the “spark of Divinity within” is of God. It is what gives us life both as spiritual beings and physical beings. If you ever had an enlightenment experience, where the personal self has dissolved away, you find that the essential nature is goodness. Words force me to use “you have” and “you find” but in this experiencing there is no subject or object but there is direct knowing. This experience is essential in realizing the truth and not any holy books because they have all been tampered with to one extent or another. Sometimes even well intentioned. You consider the Dalai Lama said he was prepared to change Buddhist text to be consistent with finding in modern physics and yet modern physics, as all of science is theory at best, which means subject to change.

kyrani99 - 26 May 2012 11:46 AM

QuakePhil - 09 January 2012 03:20 PM

I think this is in the category of “cute question which might get someone to think” and I haven’t seen it asked enough.

I asked it on godcontention dot org (don’t know the policy on linking outside sites - please let me know if that’s not allowed) but it goes like this:

How do you know your god is good, and is not actually a satan making us think he is good?

If we assume there is a God, why can’t we assume he is actually Satan in disguise?  How would you know that he wasn’t Satan, and was actually a good God; wouldn’t Satan want you to believe he was actually good, in order to get him to do his evil agenda?

What human power do you have to distinguish between the two?

What evidence do we have?
Firstly if you have ever dealt with evil people you will find that they are all spiritually/mentally powerless. They rely on deceit and intimidation to trip up the person that they target for maltreatment. (If you are interested you can see here who they are http://kyrani99.wordpress.com/2012/01/21/the-toxic-people-and-their-networks-who-are-they/  and in the rest of the blog how they operate)

Why is this important? Satan is really nothing more than the “evil spirit” or evil mindset. There is no evil force that opposes God. (And I do not see any personal God. I don’t think that God is properly depicted in the Bible. Probably the worst problem with the Bible is that it has been corrupted from the OT onwards in a lot of areas, just as other religious texts have also been corrupted in places) The evil spirit or Satan, the adversary is just the collective that is created when two or more evil people form an alliance.

Secondly, our essential nature or what we might call the “spark of Divinity within” is of God. It is what gives us life both as spiritual beings and physical beings. If you ever had an enlightenment experience, where the personal self has dissolved away, you find that the essential nature is goodness. Words force me to use “you have” and “you find” but in this experiencing there is no subject or object but there is direct knowing. This experience is essential in realizing the truth and not any holy books because they have all been tampered with to one extent or another. Sometimes even well intentioned. You consider the Dalai Lama said he was prepared to change Buddhist text to be consistent with finding in modern physics and yet modern physics, as all of science is theory at best, which means subject to change.

The mind of man attempts make sense of its imaginary world by sorting through its own concepts.
It attaches the labels of “good” and “evil” to its self-referential perceptions.
The sense of self exists only in a conceptual overlay.
It searches for its own origin…..when it doesn’t even have one.
All of its gods and demons are imaginary.
Its entire world is imaginary.
What can it do when that is apperceived?

Nothing.

toombaru - 26 May 2012 12:42 PM

The mind of man attempts make sense of its imaginary world by sorting through its own concepts.
It attaches the labels of “good” and “evil” to its self-referential perceptions.
The sense of self exists only in a conceptual overlay.
It searches for its own origin…..when it doesn’t even have one.
All of its gods and demons are imaginary.
Its entire world is imaginary.
What can it do when that is apperceived?

Nothing.

The work of evil and the huge burden of disease are hardly “self-referential perceptions”
There is more to reality than personal self.

kyrani99 - 26 May 2012 06:17 PM

toombaru - 26 May 2012 12:42 PM

The mind of man attempts make sense of its imaginary world by sorting through its own concepts.
It attaches the labels of “good” and “evil” to its self-referential perceptions.
The sense of self exists only in a conceptual overlay.
It searches for its own origin…..when it doesn’t even have one.
All of its gods and demons are imaginary.
Its entire world is imaginary.
What can it do when that is apperceived?

Nothing.

The work of evil and the huge burden of disease are hardly “self-referential perceptions”
There is more to reality than personal self.

The mind creates the sense of self and the concept of reality.
There is no such thing as evil.
There is no such thing as things.

toombaru - 27 May 2012 12:02 PM

kyrani99 - 26 May 2012 06:17 PM

toombaru - 26 May 2012 12:42 PM

The mind of man attempts make sense of its imaginary world by sorting through its own concepts.
It attaches the labels of “good” and “evil” to its self-referential perceptions.
The sense of self exists only in a conceptual overlay.
It searches for its own origin…..when it doesn’t even have one.
All of its gods and demons are imaginary.
Its entire world is imaginary.
What can it do when that is apperceived?

Nothing.

The work of evil and the huge burden of disease are hardly “self-referential perceptions”
There is more to reality than personal self.

The mind creates the sense of self and the concept of reality.
There is no such thing as evil.
There is no such thing as things.

 

All is mind made yes agreed but that does not mean that there is “no such thing as” and you can string all and sundries after it. It just means that the nature of things is not material as scientists want to understand it to be.

As for evil.. I’ve seen the type that claim no such thing and the rape and murder of people in any multitude of ways and by their millions as “just an interesting movie” or as “just nothing”. These are either deluded OR deluded and evil. And I have seen too, many times over, that the evil ones are eaten by “their very own people”. Live in the mud and you can’t not but been covered in mud too.

The big question.. can you answer.. What is Mind?

kyrani99 - 27 May 2012 07:03 PM

toombaru - 27 May 2012 12:02 PM

kyrani99 - 26 May 2012 06:17 PM

toombaru - 26 May 2012 12:42 PM

The mind of man attempts make sense of its imaginary world by sorting through its own concepts.
It attaches the labels of “good” and “evil” to its self-referential perceptions.
The sense of self exists only in a conceptual overlay.
It searches for its own origin…..when it doesn’t even have one.
All of its gods and demons are imaginary.
Its entire world is imaginary.
What can it do when that is apperceived?

Nothing.

The work of evil and the huge burden of disease are hardly “self-referential perceptions”
There is more to reality than personal self.

The mind creates the sense of self and the concept of reality.
There is no such thing as evil.
There is no such thing as things.

 

All is mind made yes agreed but that does not mean that there is “no such thing as” and you can string all and sundries after it. It just means that the nature of things is not material as scientists want to understand it to be.

As for evil.. I’ve seen the type that claim no such thing and the rape and murder of people in any multitude of ways and by their millions as “just an interesting movie” or as “just nothing”. These are either deluded OR deluded and evil. And I have seen too, many times over, that the evil ones are eaten by “their very own people”. Live in the mud and you can’t not but been covered in mud too.

The big question.. can you answer.. What is Mind?

“Mind” does not exist as a separate existential reality.
“Mind” is the label that conceptual thought gives to itself.
There is no way that “mind” it can examine or define itself.
There is no way that a concept (mind) can access its own origin simply because it exists only as an idea.

In regards to “things”.
Do you believe that there are such things as mountains?
Where does the “mountain” begin and the “valley” end?
Are the trees and rocks part of the mountain”
How tall does a “hill” have to be before it can be called a “mountain”?

Does the label “evil” apply to all living organisms or only to the human species?
Did you know that dolphins are known to rape other dolphins?
Are they evil?
Researches documented a case where a mother chimpanzee and her daughter killed the babies of other tribe members.
Are they evil?
Hamsters eat their babies.
Does that make hamsters evil?
Anemones spend years to surround and kill other anemone species.
Are they evil?

It is generally conceded on this blog that there is no such thing as free will.
What does that do to the concept of evil?

toombaru - 27 May 2012 11:29 PM

kyrani99 - 27 May 2012 07:03 PM

toombaru - 27 May 2012 12:02 PM

.................................................

.  [quote author=“kyrani99”
The big question.. can you answer.. What is Mind?

“Mind” does not exist as a separate existential reality.
“Mind” is the label that conceptual thought gives to itself.
There is no way that “mind” it can examine or define itself.
There is no way that a concept (mind) can access its own origin simply because it exists only as an idea.

In regards to “things”.
Do you believe that there are such things as mountains?
Where does the “mountain” begin and the “valley” end?
Are the trees and rocks part of the mountain”
How tall does a “hill” have to be before it can be called a “mountain”?

Does the label “evil” apply to all living organisms or only to the human species?
Did you know that dolphins are known to rape other dolphins?
Are they evil?
Researches documented a case where a mother chimpanzee and her daughter killed the babies of other tribe members.
Are they evil?
Hamsters eat their babies.
Does that make hamsters evil?
Anemones spend years to surround and kill other anemone species.
Are they evil?

It is generally conceded on this blog that there is no such thing as free will.
What does that do to the concept of evil?

 

You are quoting what mind is, ie a whole bunch of thoughts that is part of personal self. And I haven’t read Sam Harris books yet and only just starting to get acquainted with his work. However I might be differing from him in that the personal self, from in my own search for truth, is an aggregate of ideas and associated emotional reactivity. The ideas that form the core aspect of self are not just any ideas, they are ideas that had and are upheld as significant and those ideas always give rise to reactivity in the body, ie emotions. In a no-self experience, which is the trivial form of the enlightenment experience, there is the experience of an “empty temple” not only because no ideas in The Mind but because those ideas no longer give rise to mind and emotion.

The Mind is the foundation of all. For want of better words we could call it “void and clarity” together. It is all of the realities and here it is the mountains and hills and dolphins and humans and everything in the heavens. This cannot be seen through personal self but when personal self is gone.

The question of evil. From what I have heard from evil people themselves and what evidence of them that I have seen,  evil is the desire AND doing of harm, on a systematic and on-going basis, for the sake of pleasure AND as a group. No one evil person acts alone to do evil. They act as a group.. always.

That said, then raping dolphins are only evil if they are doing this systematically as a group and for the sake of pleasure, same for hamsters and all other animals. I doubt that animals can be classed as evil. This is what evil is about..  http://kyrani99.wordpress.com/  A lot of people want to water it down and call natural disasters evil and animals evil. There are plenty that want to say there is no evil and define away whatever it takes to arrive at no evil. But all those efforts will not go on without change and amends. Only so much evil can be done before people revolt in some way. They wake up sufficiently and that destroys evil.

Lastly there is no free will in being evil. All evil people have a single mindset and are totally governed by that mindset. Free will is only an apparent condition in an individual’s personal self. Evil people are a collective much more so than any mob. In a mob there is a collective of individuals. In evil mobs or networks there is a collective that has become a whole, ie individuality, outside of there being separate bodies, is lost. They have no freedom of expression outside of rigid limits.