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Atheist certainty equal to religious certainty?
Posted: 06 July 2012 10:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]  
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Paisley - 06 July 2012 10:03 PM

The atheist subscribes to materialism by default. (Any atheist who is not willing to acknowledge this has a lurking God-belief.)

 

I am not saying that the material world does not exist.
I am saying that separate things exist only in the objectifying mind of man.

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Posted: 06 July 2012 11:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]  
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toombaru - 06 July 2012 07:05 PM

There is a stage beyond belief and non-belief in which all “things” lose their edges and consciousness
finds itself moving through an un-named mystery and that becomes who one is.

I believe we have already discussed this. That “un-named” mystery is called “satchitananda.”

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Posted: 06 July 2012 11:45 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]  
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Paisley - 06 July 2012 11:10 PM
toombaru - 06 July 2012 07:05 PM

There is a stage beyond belief and non-belief in which all “things” lose their edges and consciousness
finds itself moving through an un-named mystery and that becomes who one is.

I believe we have already discussed this. That “un-named” mystery is called “satchitananda.”

 

No.
That’s a named mystery full of assumptions.

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Posted: 07 July 2012 12:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]  
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I guess I can never be 100% certain there is no god but I feel I’m about 98.7% there.

Why should that matter?

I don’t think it takes as much brain time to not believe in something than to try to maintain a belief that deep down inside you, you probably suspect isn’t true. If god finds out you don’t believe he might take away the Lexus.

I live in Texas so I’m pretty sure it exists. It is an area of land that we"ve decided to call by that name

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Posted: 07 July 2012 09:42 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]  
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Majority of One - 07 July 2012 12:18 AM

I guess I can never be 100% certain there is no god but I feel I’m about 98.7% there.

Why should that matter?

I don’t think it takes as much brain time to not believe in something than to try to maintain a belief that deep down inside you, you probably suspect isn’t true. If god finds out you don’t believe he might take away the Lexus.

I live in Texas so I’m pretty sure it exists. It is an area of land that we"ve decided to call by that name


It is fear that keeps the rudiments of religion alive.
The fear remains whether or not you believe in God.
It comes with sentience.
But life can be a lot more enjoyable knowing that there in nothing out there reading your thoughts.
There can be great peace in not knowing that which cannot be known.


Texas exists only as an idea as do the LA Lakers.
There are no such thing as things.

 

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Posted: 07 July 2012 07:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]  
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If no such thing exists, there must be a thing that exists to be able to say no thing exists. A wonderful paradox of language.

You sound like a buddhist. Which is cool. I like buddhism.

I have no fear of anything/one reading my thoughts. I retain that small belief only because I can’t prove with 100% certainty that we weren’t created by a being that got pissed off at us and is no longer communicating with us. Do I believe/not believe as an everyday thing? No. Just when I get into conversations with people about it. They can’t prove god exists. I can’t prove he/she/it doesn’t. As many have said here on this forum, if you state anything about god/religion with 100% certainty, you’re as dogmatic as the people who believe in god with 100% certainty. I don’t think that’s necessarily true but those people who believe in their god 100% (or profess to) do scare me…and I think in their case, it is a mixture of fear, wishful thinking and desire to have something on their side against the bad stuff in the world. The problem with that of course is it leads them down the path of believing all sorts of things with no evidence. Which is what it boils down to for me - lack of evidence. And, the fact that it (religion) makes zero sense. Too many paradoxes like can god make a stone so heavy he can’t lift it? Then he isn’t all powerful. Can he change the future? Then he isn’t all knowing. And on and on.

I don’t think my residual belief is at all based on fear but it might be based just a tad on wishful thinking. If I hadn’t been exposed to this god as a child, I don’t think I’d have any belief at all. Damn parents!

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Posted: 08 July 2012 08:30 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]  
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Majority of One - 07 July 2012 07:07 PM

If no such thing exists, there must be a thing that exists to be able to say no thing exists. A wonderful paradox of language.

You sound like a buddhist. Which is cool. I like buddhism.

I have no fear of anything/one reading my thoughts. I retain that small belief only because I can’t prove with 100% certainty that we weren’t created by a being that got pissed off at us and is no longer communicating with us. Do I believe/not believe as an everyday thing? No. Just when I get into conversations with people about it. They can’t prove god exists. I can’t prove he/she/it doesn’t. As many have said here on this forum, if you state anything about god/religion with 100% certainty, you’re as dogmatic as the people who believe in god with 100% certainty. I don’t think that’s necessarily true but those people who believe in their god 100% (or profess to) do scare me…and I think in their case, it is a mixture of fear, wishful thinking and desire to have something on their side against the bad stuff in the world. The problem with that of course is it leads them down the path of believing all sorts of things with no evidence. Which is what it boils down to for me - lack of evidence. And, the fact that it (religion) makes zero sense. Too many paradoxes like can god make a stone so heavy he can’t lift it? Then he isn’t all powerful. Can he change the future? Then he isn’t all knowing. And on and on.

I don’t think my residual belief is at all based on fear but it might be based just a tad on wishful thinking. If I hadn’t been exposed to this god as a child, I don’t think I’d have any belief at all. Damn parents!

I see a god with an agenda to be scarier than no god at all.

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Posted: 08 July 2012 10:30 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]  
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Well, I would define god as a being without an agenda, if I was inventing a god for myself. This god would have to be amazing enough to have created the entire known universe. Such a god would be above our petty squabbling, jealousies and egos. This god would strive for the well-being of all its creatures. Of course s/he would not be all powerful. Just extraordinarily powerful—hence the creating the universe part. Ok, maybe s/he didn’t create the universe….maybe s/he just evolved on another planet and has superpowers. Enough that we little humans would call it god.

My god wouldn’t require us to worship it though. My god would be above that. “Go, live your lives and do your best,” my god would say. “I’ll help you out when/if I can. No thanks are even required because it is what I do and I live to do it,”
my god would proudly declare.

My god would be a cool god.

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Posted: 08 July 2012 11:40 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]  
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Majority of One - 08 July 2012 10:30 AM

Well, I would define god as a being without an agenda, if I was inventing a god for myself. This god would have to be amazing enough to have created the entire known universe. Such a god would be above our petty squabbling, jealousies and egos. This god would strive for the well-being of all its creatures. Of course s/he would not be all powerful. Just extraordinarily powerful—hence the creating the universe part. Ok, maybe s/he didn’t create the universe….maybe s/he just evolved on another planet and has superpowers. Enough that we little humans would call it god.

My god wouldn’t require us to worship it though. My god would be above that. “Go, live your lives and do your best,” my god would say. “I’ll help you out when/if I can. No thanks are even required because it is what I do and I live to do it,”
my god would proudly declare.

My god would be a cool god.


The Mormons believe that if you play your cards right, you will get your own planet when you die.
You will get to be the god that governs this new world.
Perhaps you check that out.

 

 

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Posted: 08 July 2012 02:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]  
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Having my own planet and being god for my own planet would be totally cool.

I would show people a movie about all the bad shit that can happen to them—you know all the shit that happens on a daily basis on this planet—and then would tell them that all that wont happen on my planet. If they forget, you know, start taking their good life for granted, their punishment is to have to watch the movie again. I’d say, “I’m your god and if you don’t appreciate the good life I’ve given you on my planet, I will send you to Earth.” If they were rebellious and just didn’t like me or didn’t want to believe in me or whatever, I’d just laugh and let them be. If they began hurting other people by their rebelliousness though, I’d have to send them back to Earth to live with Mitt Romney. I’d listen for them to beg me to let them come back to my planet. It shouldn’t take long.

Oh, and on my planet we’d have really cool animals that we didn’t harm by our existence. And, those animals would talk to us.

Ok, this mormanism thing is sound alright. Going to check it out…if only they had guys that look like Tom Cruise in their religion.

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Posted: 08 July 2012 03:37 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]  
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Majority of One - 08 July 2012 02:08 PM

Having my own planet and being god for my own planet would be totally cool.

I would show people a movie about all the bad shit that can happen to them—you know all the shit that happens on a daily basis on this planet—and then would tell them that all that wont happen on my planet. If they forget, you know, start taking their good life for granted, their punishment is to have to watch the movie again. I’d say, “I’m your god and if you don’t appreciate the good life I’ve given you on my planet, I will send you to Earth.” If they were rebellious and just didn’t like me or didn’t want to believe in me or whatever, I’d just laugh and let them be. If they began hurting other people by their rebelliousness though, I’d have to send them back to Earth to live with Mitt Romney. I’d listen for them to beg me to let them come back to my planet. It shouldn’t take long.

Oh, and on my planet we’d have really cool animals that we didn’t harm by our existence. And, those animals would talk to us.

Ok, this mormanism thing is sound alright. Going to check it out…if only they had guys that look like Tom Cruise in their religion.

 

I am convinced that the possibility of becoming God with one’s very own planet is the main reason that Mormonism is the fastest growing religion in the world.
I am not burdened with any religious ideas but I like the idea pretty good.
Not only that, but one gets to have their entire family to colonize the new world.
There will be all new animals….......and….......and….........oh I forget…........
I’m afraid that that offer is not extended to women and probably not to blacks.
(They carry mark of Cain and no matter what the Grand Poopas declaired in 1968, Joseph Smith has the final word on things like that.
I don’t know it that applies to a woman who has a sex change.
Maybe they will get a used planet or one without very much water.
Also, I’m pretty sure I don’t want Tom Cruise on my planet.
He scares me.

 

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Posted: 08 July 2012 06:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]  
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Yeah, I don’t want Tom Cruise on my planet, either, just men that look like Tom, say about 10 years ago.

I guess I wont’ be getting my own planet, though. Female. No sex change, at least in the foreseeable future. Can’t say no 100%, but I’m about 99.99 on that one. No wishful thinking there to muddle things up.

It would be great to have some cool animals. And, not have to eat them or accidently kill them whilst doing other things.

I used to think, when I was a kid, that god is a real prick to let animals be harmed. As I got older, I realized that he’d really have to be a huge prick if he existed. Then I became glad s/he didn’t exist because then I didn’t have to hate him for all the stuff s/he got wrong.

It is truly scary that mormonism is the fastest growing religion. I would think it would be islam seeing as they have that convert or die thing going on.

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Posted: 08 July 2012 07:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]  
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Majority of One - 08 July 2012 06:11 PM

Yeah, I don’t want Tom Cruise on my planet, either, just men that look like Tom, say about 10 years ago.

I guess I wont’ be getting my own planet, though. Female. No sex change, at least in the foreseeable future. Can’t say no 100%, but I’m about 99.99 on that one. No wishful thinking there to muddle things up.

It would be great to have some cool animals. And, not have to eat them or accidently kill them whilst doing other things.

I used to think, when I was a kid, that god is a real prick to let animals be harmed. As I got older, I realized that he’d really have to be a huge prick if he existed. Then I became glad s/he didn’t exist because then I didn’t have to hate him for all the stuff s/he got wrong.

It is truly scary that mormonism is the fastest growing religion. I would think it would be islam seeing as they have that convert or die thing going on.


I don’t really consider Islam a religion but
by golly, I mis-spoke.
Mormonism isn’t the fastest growing religion.
It just seems that way.
If you marry a Mormon, you and your children….....and their children…...will get to live on a new planet.
And you can be second in command.
Maybe your husband will die or mess up and…......................hey wait a minute.
Did you know that Joseph Smith said that he saw purple angles on the moon.
Maybe if you have your own moon,  you could get some of those.

Oh yeah…..I forgot.
If your husband is God, perhaps He could make you a Tom Cruise look-alike.

 

 

[ Edited: 08 July 2012 09:00 PM by toombaru]
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Posted: 10 July 2012 03:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]  
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Majority-of-one - I was interested to read your description of your early experience – my case (and brain) is similar, I was brought up Church of England and have no memory of a non-belief moment. I only know that as far back as I can remember I was uncomfortable and embarrassed by going to church; and when I said my prayers at night (as instructed) in my head, I was also embarrassed in my head! After I left home for university I didn’t go to church again except for BD&M.  I believe that when it comes to religion and the supernatural in general there are two types of brain; those that allow the choice to believe or not and those that do not allow such belief (I suspect this is in the wiring). I am the latter and can only understand the supernatural from an intellectual point of view not from an empathic one, which is perhaps why I can not get excited about arguments between theists and atheists. It has always seemed to me to be futile to debate the existence of God because all arguments for its existence only make any kind of sense if you believe in God and I must assume vice versa.

I have considered the possibility that God exists, although it is a hypothesis without evidence, but it doesn’t really matter to me because I can’t believe in it anyway – perhaps it created us as some form of control group in an experiment. In which case it is a bit disappointing that no religion has ever incorporated us into their theology; you would have thought it was quite important for them to do so. My son believes himself to have the other type of brain because he can see that it would have been possible for him to believe in God if it had ever been mentioned during his upbringing. Its also interesting that he is very much the Hitchins/Dawkins type of non-believer and really get quite angry about religion.

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Posted: 10 July 2012 07:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]  
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Agerweb—thanks for your response and I have (unfortunately) only recently come to agree with what you’re saying about arguments between theists and non-theists being pointless. I spent a good deal of time arguing with people in my youth about religion. At first, I really didn’t have a problem with god, maybe as a first cause type god, but I knew what religion was teaching wasn’t true and I would get into endless arguments with my classmates and some family members about it. I knew enough to leave the old people alone!

I might add one type of brain to your analysis and that is a brain that has to believe. I think there are people who aren’t exposed to religion when young that go on a “quest to fill the hole” they feel inside and religion provides a ready-made solution to that emptiness and those people lap it up like chocolate milk.

Those were the people who really made me scratch my head when I was younger. But, back then I thought we had freewill, too. LOL

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