What is undeniable proof?
Posted: 23 June 2012 08:14 AM   [ Ignore ]  
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As a Black young agnostic college student Ive notice that the black community will never even consider to question God (Christainity) until the Atheist community (or any community) can come up with a way to explain the “Holy Ghost”. This is something that occurs very very often mostly during intense prayer to Jesus and occurs people to randomly speak a different language, frantically jump around, and even burst into tears. The language that they speak in the same in all churches, these people have no language training, they cant all each other, and the language actually sounds well formed. These are more than miracles because they happen very very often and its seen as prove in the black churches.

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Posted: 23 June 2012 09:07 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]  
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Yeah the definition of language involves distinguishing one thing from another. It’s an act of communication, as opposed to gibberish. What they’re doing is definitely not communicating. They’re verbalizing. They can’t understand each other except in an emotional sense. The speech has no referent to anything in the world outside of how they feel.


Look at it this way. If you and I belong to a close shared community with strongly held beliefs and I start “talking in tongues” are you going to “feel ’ what it is I am saying or doing ?Of course you are. You “get” what sort of state I am in and what my talking in tongues “means” on some level.  You will process my behaviour and “understand” it on some gut level. That’s a part of being a member of a subculture or community.. you “get” each other without anyone having to even say anything, or similarly you can roll around and speak in tongues.


Now, if we video tape a member of the community speaking in tongues and show that video tape to other members individually, not permit those members to confer with each other and ask them to write down what they think the holy roller was saying, do you think they would all come up with the same translation?

Not a chance. The best they would be able to do is all refer to some general high level shared beliefs that they know they all have about Jesus and the Spirit or whatever.  But if it was God talking through the holy roller, then god said something specific other than predictable stuff like “BELIEVE IN ME I AM THE ONE TRUE GOD I LOVE ALL MY CHILDREN” and stuff like that.


The point is there’s verbalization of general emotion and there’s language. Language is an act of communication about something specific. Verbalising ain a highly emotional state is not language.

The fact that they all sound alike is because 1) they learn from learn other on the internet and visiting each other and on films and video tapes and through example and 2) gibberish is STILL going to sound like language of some sort because we are born language speakers and have no trouble making it up as we go along… pretending to speak in a fake language really isn’t that hard given our brains are pre-wired to produce and understand speech and all speech , all language shares a lot of common characteristics- you can investigate what those are if you’re curious about it.

Best wishes

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Posted: 23 June 2012 09:30 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]  
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BSUJason - 23 June 2012 08:14 AM

As a Black young agnostic college student Ive notice that the black community will never even consider to question God (Christainity) until the Atheist community (or any community) can come up with a way to explain the “Holy Ghost”. This is something that occurs very very often mostly during intense prayer to Jesus and occurs people to randomly speak a different language, frantically jump around, and even burst into tears. The language that they speak in the same in all churches, these people have no language training, they cant all each other, and the language actually sounds well formed. These are more than miracles because they happen very very often and its seen as prove in the black churches.

The human brain is hardwired for speech.
Under certain self-induced euphoric states the speech centers open up and gibberish flows.
The apparent loss of self-control gives the brain a small vacation from its innate fear based tension and this feels good.
Couple this with the positive attention the speaker receives from the flock of like believers and lo and behold….....a miracle.
The mind is a program that evolved to search for connections.
It looks for causes to the events it perceives.
Because it can’t explain “speaking in tongues”, it creates an imaginary agent.
Since it doesn’t appear to be itself that is the cause, it must be “God” or the Holy Ghost” that is doing this speaking.
The brain is capable of many forms of self delusion.
Every night it fools its self in a complete world….....that is a dream.
Personally, I wouldn’t trust anything that wants to use my brain to blabber on about nothing but non-sense.
Babies are starving….....people are being tortured…....Obama-care might be approved by the Supreme Court and the Holy Ghost is pre-occupied with parlor tricks.

 

[ Edited: 23 June 2012 10:13 AM by toombaru]
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Posted: 23 June 2012 09:49 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]  
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WOW, that was the only time I ever recieved an answer for that question but I must say there is no way I can hold the black community’s attention long enough to ever be able to explain something like that to my fellow African-American peers and most colleges.

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Posted: 23 June 2012 09:56 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]  
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BSUJason - 23 June 2012 09:49 AM

WOW, that was the only time I ever recieved an answer for that question but I must say there is no way I can hold the black community’s attention long enough to ever be able to explain something like that to my fellow African-American peers and most colleges.

 

Why would you want to?
The mind of man flounders in delusion.
It always has…...It always will.
You will become entangled in a quixotic nightmare if you take it on.
Better to seek sanity in your own little bubble.
There is great peace to be found in logical thought.
And that is the only gift you can offer the world.

[ Edited: 23 June 2012 10:08 AM by toombaru]
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Posted: 23 June 2012 10:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]  
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HA HA HA HA, that is very funny. You must not know how much overall damage is done just in relation to these beliefs and what that means for the very few rational young black student. I will NEVER choose to back down just because the enemy is too large. Where would we be, as American if we didnt have those big names who stood up to large foes (i.e. Martin Luther King). I understand the scale of the problem and how much would need to be done but I don’t think that us (as non-theist) should hide in out rational world while we let modern people believe ancient myths. This hurts us too. I could only image how different the world would be if we had more people speaking out against the MYTHS of all theology. There is much work to be done to convince the masses in both my cultural and anyone else’s but that doesn’t make it a lost battle.

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Posted: 23 June 2012 10:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]  
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BSUJason - 23 June 2012 10:27 AM

HA HA HA HA, that is very funny. You must not know how much overall damage is done just in relation to these beliefs and what that means for the very few rational young black student. I will NEVER choose to back down just because the enemy is too large. Where would we be, as American if we didnt have those big names who stood up to large foes (i.e. Martin Luther King). I understand the scale of the problem and how much would need to be done but I don’t think that us (as non-theist) should hide in out rational world while we let modern people believe ancient myths. This hurts us too. I could only image how different the world would be if we had more people speaking out against the MYTHS of all theology. There is much work to be done to convince the masses in both my cultural and anyone else’s but that doesn’t make it a lost battle.


Lots of luck with that.
Well…....that’s assuming that you believe that there is such a thing as luck.
Before you adorn yourself with armor and mount your steed perhaps you could read Sam’s book “Free Will”.
Search out the latest research on the nature of self.
Also avail yourself to some of the literature concerning the “heroes of humanity before you pattern your life on theirs.
Read about the real Gandhi, Mother Teresa, and even your beloved Martin.
It could change your view of the “giants” that have gone before you.
There are no saints.
There are no sinners.
Factor out free will and they, like you, are merely reactive machinery.
When machinery takes on machinery….........nothing wins.
This may sound nihilistic.
That’s because it is.
The delusion of the conceptual mind is so profound that there in no resolution on the level in which it occurs.
What you have taken on is equivalent to fixing all the people and circumstances in your dreams at night.
The objectifying mind creates a pseudo-reality which it names and conceptually separates into imagined objects.
In truth there is no such thing as things.
There is no such thing as a “mountain” or a “river”.
And the mind screams back “THERE ARE MOUNTAINS AND RIVERS!”
“I have actually seen them”.

I would ask you how far down into the earth a mountain goes.
Can you draw a line around a mountain?
How big does a “stream” have to be to become a “river”?

Before you take on a dream….......understand its underpinnings.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ Edited: 23 June 2012 11:02 AM by toombaru]
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Posted: 23 June 2012 11:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]  
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toombaru - 23 June 2012 10:58 AM
BSUJason - 23 June 2012 10:27 AM

HA HA HA HA, that is very funny. You must not know how much overall damage is done just in relation to these beliefs and what that means for the very few rational young black student. I will NEVER choose to back down just because the enemy is too large. Where would we be, as American if we didnt have those big names who stood up to large foes (i.e. Martin Luther King). I understand the scale of the problem and how much would need to be done but I don’t think that us (as non-theist) should hide in out rational world while we let modern people believe ancient myths. This hurts us too. I could only image how different the world would be if we had more people speaking out against the MYTHS of all theology. There is much work to be done to convince the masses in both my cultural and anyone else’s but that doesn’t make it a lost battle.


Lots of luck with that.
Well…....that’s assuming that you believe that there is such a thing as luck.
Before you adorn yourself with armor and mount your steed perhaps you could read Sam’s book “Free Will”.
Search out the latest research on the nature of self.
Also avail yourself to some of the literature concerning the “heroes of humanity before you pattern your life on theirs.
Read about the real Gandhi, Mother Teresa, and even your beloved Martin.
It could change your view of the “giants” that have gone before you.
There are no saints.
There are no sinners.
Factor out free will and they, like you, are merely reactive machinery.
When machinery takes on machinery….........nothing wins.
This may sound nihilistic.
That’s because it is.
The delusion of the conceptual mind is so profound that there in no resolution on the level in which it occurs.
What you have taken on is equivalent to fixing all the people and circumstances in your dreams at night.
The objectifying mind creates a pseudo-reality which it names and conceptually separates into imagined objects.
In truth there is no such thing as things.
There is no such thing as a “mountain” or a “river”.
And the mind screams back “THERE ARE MOUNTAINS AND RIVERS!”
“I have actually seen them”.

I would ask you how far down into the earth a mountain goes.
Can you draw a line around a mountain?
How big does a “stream” have to be to become a “river”?

Before you take on a dream….......understand its underpinnings.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


Watch your own mind as it reacts to what is written.
Watch it as it defends its unique perspective.
It will respond….or not…..as it is programmed.
It is nothing other than the very perspective it defends.
“You” have no choice.
The very sense of being a self emerges within the mind’s reactions.

 

 

 

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Posted: 23 June 2012 11:50 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]  
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I must very respectfully disagree with almost EVERYTHING in your reply. I completely understand what you say and I know far more about my heroes than you suggested in your reply. Were we disagree at is, you seem to suggest that all attempts to convert people to the world of the rational will be in vain and ultimately useless and dont see this as true. As a person of compassion I can clearly see why I need tear down the walls of religion in attempt to keep people from praying over people in the middle seizure which happens very often. I could be incorrect but you also seem to suggest that humanity as a whole couldn’t handle the truth and Im also inclined to disagree with that too. I don’t believe it takes a large jump for people of the educated world (i.e. the black college community) to switch from superstition to truth. If all college students suddenly gave of all proven myths of theology there would be no type clashes nor any change in behavior of any kind. I dont believe to combat these religious doctrines t takes a revolutionary hero but rather more louder voices of reason, truth, and consistency., Also, I disagree with your machine vs. machine comparison in this scenario but I do agree with you in a more general sense. This is not a case of Machine vs. Machine this is a case of Realistic vs. Harmful Religious Superstition.

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Posted: 23 June 2012 12:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]  
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BSUJason - 23 June 2012 11:50 AM

I must very respectfully disagree with almost EVERYTHING in your reply. I completely understand what you say and I know far more about my heroes than you suggested in your reply. Were we disagree at is, you seem to suggest that all attempts to convert people to the world of the rational will be in vain and ultimately useless and dont see this as true. As a person of compassion I can clearly see why I need tear down the walls of religion in attempt to keep people from praying over people in the middle seizure which happens very often. I could be incorrect but you also seem to suggest that humanity as a whole couldn’t handle the truth and Im also inclined to disagree with that too. I don’t believe it takes a large jump for people of the educated world (i.e. the black college community) to switch from superstition to truth. If all college students suddenly gave of all proven myths of theology there would be no type clashes nor any change in behavior of any kind. I dont believe to combat these religious doctrines t takes a revolutionary hero but rather more louder voices of reason, truth, and consistency., Also, I disagree with your machine vs. machine comparison in this scenario but I do agree with you in a more general sense. This is not a case of Machine vs. Machine this is a case of Realistic vs. Harmful Religious Superstition.


[color=green]
The frontal cortex and its conceptual wiring create a world in which the imagined individual appears to have control.
When it is apprehended that that is not the case a most profound peace can occur.
Trace back the last “choice” you made and try to get a glimpse of what actually occurred.
Research has proven the the brain decides i(reacts in the only way it could have) a millisecond before the sense of self,  which emerges within that arena and claims responsibility.
The mind here is grateful that humans have only the illusion of free will.
Can you imagine a would in which all humans beings actually had the power to exert their personal agendas?
Human compassion does not decrease as this understanding percolates down through the synaptic-interface.
On the contrary, it seems to increase.
Judgmental views, both good and bad, simply evaporate once it is seen that everyone is doing only what their program dictates.
I give to charities, volunteer as a hospice in home volunteer, and would step in front of a bus for my grandchildren.
I don’t see you as being black or as being a student.
Here you are seen as a most mysterious machine who has appeared in this most mysterious mind bubble named toombaru.
And it removes its imaginary hat that you are even considering with these most uncomfortable ideas.

[/color]

[ Edited: 23 June 2012 12:38 PM by toombaru]
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Posted: 23 June 2012 12:41 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]  
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toombaru - 23 June 2012 12:19 PM

BSUJason - 23 June 2012 11:50 AM

I must very respectfully disagree with almost EVERYTHING in your reply. I completely understand what you say and I know far more about my heroes than you suggested in your reply. Were we disagree at is, you seem to suggest that all attempts to convert people to the world of the rational will be in vain and ultimately useless and dont see this as true. As a person of compassion I can clearly see why I need tear down the walls of religion in attempt to keep people from praying over people in the middle seizure which happens very often. I could be incorrect but you also seem to suggest that humanity as a whole couldn’t handle the truth and Im also inclined to disagree with that too. I don’t believe it takes a large jump for people of the educated world (i.e. the black college community) to switch from superstition to truth. If all college students suddenly gave of all proven myths of theology there would be no type clashes nor any change in behavior of any kind. I dont believe to combat these religious doctrines t takes a revolutionary hero but rather more louder voices of reason, truth, and consistency., Also, I disagree with your machine vs. machine comparison in this scenario but I do agree with you in a more general sense. This is not a case of Machine vs. Machine this is a case of Realistic vs. Harmful Religious Superstition.


[color=green]
The frontal cortex and its conceptual wiring create a world in which the imagined individual appears to have control.
When it is apprehended that that is not the case a most profound peace can occur.
Trace back the last “choice” you made and try to get a glimpse of what actually occurred.
Research has proven the the brain decides i(reacts in the only way it could have) a millisecond before the sense of self,  which emerges within that arena and claims responsibility.
The mind here is grateful that humans have only the illusion of free will.
Can you imagine a would in which all humans beings actually had the power to exert their personal agendas?
Human compassion does not decrease as this understanding percolates down through the synaptic-interface.
On the contrary, it seems to increase.
Judgmental views, both good and bad, simply evaporate once it is seen that everyone is doing only what their program dictates.
I give to charities, volunteer as a hospice in home volunteer, and would step in front of a bus for my grandchildren.
I don’t see you as being black or as being a student.
Here you are seen as a most mysterious machine who has appeared in this most mysterious mind bubble named toombaru.
And it removes its imaginary hat that you are even considering with these most uncomfortable ideas.

[/color]

 


The brain here thought it would be a good idea to turn the print green.
It guesses that reality didn’t agree with its wishes.

 

:-0

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