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Sam’s new thoughts on free will
Posted: 23 September 2012 05:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 151 ]  
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GenerousGeorge - 23 September 2012 02:22 PM

Well then, I guess some are “mechanically driven” to convert with a more elegant and reasoned logic. I’m glad I am mechanically driven with reason on my side.  Even if I did not choose it of my own free will, I can have the free will to recognize it.

I’m not sure frankly. This is a confusing issue for me.


It is confusing simply because you still want to believe that you have free will albeit limited.
“Reasoning” implies the existence of free will.
The brain does not reason.
It reacts.

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Posted: 23 September 2012 05:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 152 ]  
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GenerousGeorge - 23 September 2012 02:22 PM

Well then, I guess some are “mechanically driven” to convert with a more elegant and reasoned logic. I’m glad I am mechanically driven with reason on my side.  Even if I did not choose it of my own free will, I can have the free will to recognize it.

I’m not sure frankly. This is a confusing issue for me.

 

It is confusing simply because you still want to believe that you have free will albeit limited.
“Reasoning” implies the existence of free will.
The brain does not reason.
It reacts.

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Posted: 23 September 2012 05:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 153 ]  
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As I said, I’m not sure. Different peoples brains seem to react differently.

It really is not that important to me. Regardless of if I’m just “reacting”, do actually reason, have the illusion of reasoning, or I am a mechanical puppet on the end of some strings, it all seems the same to my daily existence in this reality.

By the way, I agree with some regarding the status of your lapel. I think I see some gravy spots on it as well. Could be an illusion however.

[ Edited: 23 September 2012 05:25 PM by GenerousGeorge]
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Posted: 23 September 2012 05:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 154 ]  
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GenerousGeorge - 23 September 2012 04:42 PM

Interesting vitriol as you say. Comparable to religious foks arguing over whose invisible slave master is the correct one. Free will or not, ego always pokes its insatiable head into the fray.

One thing that occurs to me is the concept of willingness to accept some control over our decision makng. If there is some outside force sticking these actions into our brain before we can decide by ourselves, if we are willing to not fight the control, do things go better for us in this reality.

Not sure that makes much sense but it is something like when things are not going well for me and I seem to be “trying to hard to make things happen” it feels like I am “swimming upstream”. When my decision making is less stressed and things seem to be going well for me, I feel like I’m “swimming with the current”.

Sooooo, could there be some kind of “outside agency”,  higher power, whatever that is not exactly “pulling the strings”, but somehow influencing decisions in a suble way, something like Sam has in mind?

Maybe it’s not a black & white issue and Sams concept may lead to a better understanding of all that.


The “higher force” is a hundred million years of highly evolved survival programming.
The entire concept of choice exists only in the conceptual mind of man.
There are no “decisions” in nature.
A bear does not “decide” to climb a tree.
And a man does not decide to change wash his hands.
The brain reacts in the only way it can and the sense of self emerges and claims credit.
The illusory ego observes the brain’s reactions and coins the word “choice”.
It then mistakes its own label for an actual reality.
You can’t help believing that you have free will and you can’t understand that you don’t.
The sense of being an actual entity arises within that assumption.
Find out how substantial the self is before you try to determine if it has or doesn’t have a
certain quality.

 

 

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Posted: 23 September 2012 05:35 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 155 ]  
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GenerousGeorge - 23 September 2012 05:21 PM

As I said, I’m not sure. Different peoples brains seem to react differently.

It really is not that important to me. Regardless of if I’m just “reacting”, do actually reason, have the illusion of reasoning, or I am a mechanical puppet on the end of some strings, it all seems the same to my daily existence in this reality.

By the way, I agree with some regarding the status of your lapel. I think I see some gravy spots on it as well. Could be an illusion however.

 

You are not even a mechanical puppet on the end of strings.
The sense of there being an actual psychological entity arises in the brain.
In the truest sense you are no more real than the people in your dreams at night.
Oh, there’s a body and a brain….....but there is no you.
Ain’t that a kick in the ass?

 

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Posted: 23 September 2012 05:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 156 ]  
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Your brain seems to “react” in a way that wants to create issues and argue. I’m not interested in “charging windmills”.

I’m not sure about the “self thing”. Seems like it might even be an unimportant matter of semantics. If the illusion is perfect, what difference does it make? Does it make a practical difference if it seems real or is real? It is one of the least interesting dilemmnas I can think of. Or at least the “reaction” of my brain expresses that.

I’m really only interested in practical realities that affect, or have the perfect illusion to affect me.

Does that gravy spot on your lapel bother you?

[ Edited: 23 September 2012 05:38 PM by GenerousGeorge]
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Posted: 23 September 2012 05:40 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 157 ]  
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PS .......  I sometimes think of the brain as more of communication and data storage device than as a “thought generator”.

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Posted: 23 September 2012 05:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 158 ]  
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GenerousGeorge - 23 September 2012 05:36 PM

Your brain seems to “react” in a way that wants to create issues and argue. I’m not interested in “charging windmills”.

I’m not sure about the “self thing”. Seems like it might even be an unimportant matter of semantics. If the illusion is perfect, what difference does it make? Does it make a practical difference if it seems real or is real? It is one of the least interesting dilemmnas I can think of. Or at least the “reaction” of my brain expresses that.

I’m really only interested in practical realities that affect, or have the perfect illusion to affect me.

Does that gravy spot on your lapel bother you?


Of course the brain I call mine is reacting.
And it knows that.
If your brain is content living in an illusion that it has created, that cannot be helped.
And you are right, it really makes no difference.
However, it appears that there are a few whose thirst is not quenched by water from a mirage.

And no the spot doesn’t really bother me.
(It just a picture of a spot)

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Posted: 23 September 2012 05:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 159 ]  
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If the mirage is illusory, (as they all are)  illusory water will quench it.

I am quite content as it makes no real difference other than to an ego which is also illusory.

I will say that this whole question of free will and self stirred up by Sams book, has caused me to think, er “brain react”  differently about “Higher Power”, meaning of life etc.

OH ..... glad to hear about the spot.

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Posted: 23 September 2012 06:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 160 ]  
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GenerousGeorge - 23 September 2012 05:53 PM

If the mirage is illusory, (as they all are)  illusory water will quench it.

I am quite content as it makes no real difference other than to an ego which is also illusory.

I will say that this whole question of free will and self stirred up by Sams book, has caused me to think, er “brain react”  differently about “Higher Power”, meaning of life etc.

OH ..... glad to hear about the spot.

The mind evolved to look out into its perceived world.
When it tries to look inward it sees nothing simply because there is nothing there.
For most the search ends there.
You have opened a window that can’t be closed.
Might as well go along with the current and see where it goes.
What have you got to lose?

 

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Posted: 23 September 2012 06:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 161 ]  
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Lose, gain, if it is all illusory, what matter? Anyway, I don’t mind going with the current awhile. I’m open to that.

“Row, row row your boat, gently down the stream…...”

PS .....  Is there a “secret handshake” for this club?

[ Edited: 23 September 2012 06:16 PM by GenerousGeorge]
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Posted: 23 September 2012 06:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 162 ]  
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GenerousGeorge - 23 September 2012 06:13 PM

Lose, gain, if it is all illusory, what matter? Anyway, I don’t mind going with the current awhile. I’m open to that.

“Row, row row your boat, gently down the stream…...”

PS .....  Is there a “secret handshake” for this club?


No.
But there is a pattern we put on our lapels so we can recognize each other.

You know…...if you’re flowing with the current, you can put down those oars.
But don’t throw them away just in case a swamp rabbit tries to come on board.

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Posted: 23 September 2012 06:27 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 163 ]  
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Don’t you know .....“swamp rabbits” are mythical. I will be waiting for my special marker for my lapel.

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Posted: 23 September 2012 06:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 164 ]  
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GenerousGeorge - 23 September 2012 06:27 PM

Don’t you know .....“swamp rabbits” are mythical. I will be waiting for my special marker for my lapel.

 

Did you ever see the movie where Jimmy Carter flails his oar wildly as a semi-submerged swamp rabbit?
http://www.narsil.org/index/peopl/jimmycarter/killerrabbit

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Posted: 23 September 2012 07:16 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 165 ]  
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LOL   I had not seen that ..... like poor Jimmy didn’t have enough problem without killer rabbits.

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