Hi Ray…not much time to be on line for awhile, (at least for posting) but I did promise to touch base with you, on some of your other thoughts. (reply, may be slow in coming, and excuse the spelling, dashing this off)
>>>I don’t think you will ever catch the rabbit of un-changing, enduring unconditional love. (end)
2 min. or so, after posting,I realized, that “rabbit,” was not the best word choice. (but I couldn’t edit)
To rephrase-To meet those, that already have that “type” of love, and to be that type, also. To a “degree,” I am, moreso, than years ago. (and that’s without use of chemicals Yet far, from the measuring stick.. to die, for an enemy.The change, due, imho, to an “Aha”, seeing us (all) as equal in value, at different stages on our journey, (judge nothing before it’s time) and not feeling superior, judgemental. There was nothing I “did” to get the “Aha” moment, so I cannot brag. (would that show up on a “machine?”)
Having had some time to meditate, ponder on this unconditional love subject, this example came to mind, where I think we “already” see this unconditional love in operation.
Think for a moment, about parents, who value, care deeply for their little baby “Billy.” They nurse him to health, when he is ill, they smile proudly, still in awe, about this new little man. They attend school functions, take him to appointments, teach him to drive, and hope for his future. They worry, as he grows older, wondering where he is, who he’s with, when he’s coming home, is he safe, etc.
Billy goes “bad.” Ends up in prison. A horrible crime! The parents are shocked, filled with grief, over their loss, yet they know society must be protected from him.
But is their love for him gone? No. They think of him often, they visit the prison, they take money, clothes, fresh baked goodies, etc. They still glance at his picture, hanging on their wall at home, they long for the next visit.
Other parents, given the same scenerio, would dis-own the child, son, daughter.
Short of a brain injury, (etc.) these parents continued to love. (value)
So we see, love was not conditional. These parents, are one example (one of many) of un-conditional love. Their love was not changing. It was the same love they always felt. It was enduring.
>>> It is now obvious that the brain is a biochemical machine that works with and at the same time responds to the endocrine system to produce human consciousness, emotions and understandings. (end)
Ok, for discussions sake, this can be our foundation of sorts.
>>> As I see it love is the physical response of our brain and endocrine system to our environment.
How would an “Aha” fit in there? The phrase “He had a change of heart?” He is a changed man. How is this chemical, in nature?
Or the man, who wrote the song, Amazing Grace. (using this example, because it’s a well known one, other examples, could apply here, as well) He was not so much interacting with his environment, but reading a text, something “clicked” for him, he saw men as equal, and he soon afterwards, abandoned his participation, in slave trade. (could we say, there is an external, and, internal “environment?”)
If a young couple,(in “love”) got stranded in a sub-freezing blizzard, (environment) would they suddenly stop loving each other? We have too many, far too many reports, of self sacrifice, “other focused” acts expressions, to prove otherwise. But have a stab at it Ray.
>>>It is a subjective “feeling” that can not (yet) be physically shared with others (end)
I suppose “shared” would need defined. (yep, I’m a stickler for definitions, though I’d never ask anyone to define the word “is.”
Is it really subjective? (are there different types of love?) Isn’t there an agreed upon, sort of universal accepted definition, of love? (though here, I can see room for differences, when looking at some tribal practices, putting bones thru your childs nose, because you love them, etc. but even that, would need to be broken down, analyzed, first)
It seems we do “share” feelings though. If someone comes in to work Mon. morning, in a grouchy mood, (dis-positon) a really, really, grouchy mood, they usually share it, with anyone within ear shot !
Notice the word dis-position. Interesting. (position)
If one is “feeling” generous, they give, they “share” with others.
Same with hate. (although hate can stay hidden, someone can smile to your face, but inside, they hate your guts) Can love, stay hidden as well? If it did, would it really, be love, for I’m thinking love MUST express. Of all the feelings, it seems love operates more as a “verb, kinda.” More, by expression, rather than repression.
Aggressivenss, a feeling, or more of a trait? And if a trait, is that inborn, can it be learned, can it be repressed? If it could be repressed, for how long?
>>> I think many humans strive to achieve the feeling of love because it just plain “feels” good and the reason it feels good is because the conditions that bring it on generally have survival value.
Well, we can’t have that! Feeling good, lol. And to heck with survial too.
Survival, “only” for self? Thinking of Ghandi here, did he love those he sacrificed for? He was willing to die. You may be meaning, survival for “someone” anyone. In that case, I would understand your thoughts, and agree. But Ghandi’s body, probably didn’t “feel” good, after starving, so one can hurt in their body, but feel good in their “brain?” What about the mind-body connection here?
A parent, shielding a child from a bullet, yet knowing they will both be killed, cannot be expressing this action, for survival. They shield the child, to protect his view, but not his life. Nor the life of the protector.
>>>I think that there is scientific evidence to suggest that many mammals experience “feelings” and that these “feelings” have evolved because they have survival value. (end)
Could be, (shrug) but I do KNOW, that all my pets loved me! (at least, I wanted to believe they did So then, my love for the animal, was assurance, for their survival?There are always accidents, etc. Where would this fit in with your conclusions? We “love” even knowing beforehand (accidents) that survial is not always the final outcome.
>>>In any of the systems that operate in the human body things can go wrong and this can lead to problems. Cell growth and replacement is necessary and fundamental to survival but it can cause scaring and loss of function and if it gets out of control (cancer) it can kill the organism. In the brain things can happen to cause brain cells to produce a brain chemistry which can generate aberrant behaviors and feelings in humans.(end)
Have to agree there. Some things, that cause (and effect) these things to go wrong, are due to poor diet, stress, inward type, air, water pollution, outward types, sun exposure, other toxins, bacteria, virus, etc. Yet, even though one could minimize many of these stressors in their daily life, stay realtively healthy, for a long period of time, they could still end up getting hit by a car, and die.
>>>Today we call these behaviors and feelings symptoms of mental illness. Because science has produced new information and understandings of the brain a condition like sever depression is no longer seen as laziness or poor attitude and schizophrenia is not considered to be demonic possession except by the most uninformed or superstitious among us. Because of their ignorance of what the brain is and how it works humans of the past had mistakenly assumed that almost all individuals (it was obvious in extreme cases that this was not true) had total control over all their behaviors and if an individual behaved inappropriately they did so willfully or because some sort of evil spirit had taken them over. Today because of advances in psychology we know that the causes of behaviors and feelings in humans are the result of an organism’s genetic make up interacting in a complicated way with the environment. (end)
Not really off topic, but what are your thoughts Ray, about John Nash? Supposedly, he was schizophrenic, but recovered ,without the use of meds. Mis-diagnosis? Fluke? (I know he took the meds for a time period)
I’ve also read reports, of those with a similar, or same diagnosis, but they revovered,“simply” by strict food (diet) change. You think so? (foods, are chemicals, and have fewer side effects) That type of “treatment” is a slower process though, and we know how fast paced our society has become. (and yes, it’s extremely sad, how the mentally ill patients were treated at one time,shudder)
>>>Today it is no longer appropriate treatment to analyze how much a patient hates their mother or father. Treatment is now chemical in nature and drugs or behavioral therapy are used in an attempt to alter a patient’s brain chemistry and thereby alleviate the symptoms of illness. (end)
Here’s where I disagree a bit. With pills, you can “chemically lobotomize” a patient, “contain” their behavior, but that’s a little like just putting the pit bull, in a cage. They can STILL, hate their mother or father. Even science can prove hate, (negative emotion) has an adverse effect upon the body. On top of that, the “trust issues” of the patient, are not dealt with, exclusively, with the use of meds. Do we just make “zombies” of the worst cases where hate (unforgiveness?) has a “play” in the “whole” matter? We can, we do, it helps protect the rest of society (most of the time) but how is that helping “the patient?”
>>>Look at all the people that were once in love but are now divorced.
Maybe they weren’t really in love. Or maybe one, carried the love part, the other, was in the relationship for other reasons, “different types of needs.”
Though divorce causes a lot of pain, there are times (abuse) when this must occur. For the victims saftey, children, etc. The other, could still Love (absence of hate, wishing them harm) the abuser, but the trust issue, makes it impossible, to stay married.
Other valid reasons, cause divorce, yet, many remain friends. That value, love, was still directed towards the other, even though they could not harmonize goals, structures, etc. People hop into marriage, way too quicly anyways.
>>>Anyone who has maintained a long term relationship knows how much work and effort it takes to do so. Relationships based solely on the feelings of love will not last because the brain will become habituated to those chemicals and the feelings will fade and/or change. (end)
Thats why I’m asking about “types” of love. A chemical rush, of course, would ebb, and flow, change. But we see with the “Billy” example, for some people, the love did not fade, or change. You may though, say that a thought, must proceed a feeling. The thought, produces the chemical, which gets expressed “as” the feeling?
Maybe that’s why we say “Hold that thought!”
But do you really “need “to"think” each time you see your “dearest” cat, do you have to consider, at each viewing, about” if” you love it, each and every time? If you say yes, it’s no wonder people are tired all the time, they are thinking way to much! (lol)
>>>The condition of loving someone is just a temporary internal state produced by brain chemistry. (end)
But what about “Billy?”
(which reminds me Ray, have you seen the movie, “What About Bob?” one of my fav’s!! Rib-hurting-laughter-inducing. (Starring Bill Murray)
>>> You can not “love thy neighbor as thy self” any more than you can orgasm your neighbor as yourself. (end)
I’m pondering this. Some parts, along the lines of…is an orgasim, just genital, or in the “mind?” I’ll have to get back on this one. (I don’t have all the answers…ah shucks, you found me out)
>>>Love is not a solution to any of the social, political or economic problems humans have. (end)
One mind, might help.
Love, (value) wouldn’t put a little crimp, in the greed department? The prejudice dept? Theft dept? The lie dept? Trustability dept? Hmm, I dunno Ray, you might wanna to rethink this.
>>>It might help an individual cope with some of life’s problems at a personal level but beyond the individual it has no power or effect.
It I don’t hate my neighbor, it could indeed, go beyond individual, it would “spill” out, via my “actions” towards others. Is hate kind, forgiving, thoughtful, helpful, considerate…? Of course, one can “fake” they love their neighbor. But they couldn’t have a real, honest, open, mutual flow, kind of relationship, in that mode.
Oh, and if science could make that “love pill” and make some in, large quantity, then the US, could drop some “love juice”, on the muslim fundie’s, then there’d be no problem, right?
So love, would OVERIDE belief?
Gosh, what would that cost?
One last thing (since I can’t post often, for awhile, I’ll drop it all here, in this post
take your time.
What are your thoughts on this? (below)
The “Chinese Room” argument
UC Berkley, John Searle
In the case of “Old Stump”, described by James, a background personality was apparently unaffected by an illness that produced concurrent delirium in the surface personality.
Such cases, appear to strain conventional theories of overall brain function.
from the Esalen site,
Inadequacies of Contemporary Mind/Brain Theories
Enjoy your Merlot!
Interested in others thoughts along these lines, as well, though I can’t respond to all, I would read them.