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The Problem with Science (and Sam Harris)
Posted: 22 February 2005 04:15 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]  
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Every time I watch a science related program, the key words are always: may, might, could, maybe, etc.

Champion, that is exactly the glory of science. All theories are open to analysis and the clear light of reality; if they are proven wrong, then they are wrong. True believers in the Bible share no such reasoned thought process. If they did, how could they believe all the sheer nonsense and obvious contradictions in the Bible?

The term “creation scientist” is an oxymoron, and downright Orwellian in its attempt to indicate that falsehood is truth.

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Posted: 22 February 2005 04:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]  
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I have to agree with Pete.  I have argued and tried to dialog with creationists and have found it to be an exercise in futility.  The best way to deal with them is to try to stop the spread of their poison.  Here are a few of the characteristics and beliefs of people like Champ that have led me to this conclusion:

1.Creationists have no concept or understanding of science and how it is different from belief. 
2.Creationists understand little about the theory of evolution.  They argue
from a position of ignorance and are proud of it.
3.Creationists consider the bible and their interpretation of it to be factual evidence of the same nature and stature as the facts and evidence of science.
4.Creationists will attack evolution with biblical claims while refusing to accept scientific evidence in rebuttal.  In order to convince them they
are wrong, you must use their book to do it. 
5.Creationists have somehow come to the conclusion that there is a wealth of evidence to support the bible’s historical and factual claims.  Ask for evidence for this outlandish claim and you will receive none from the real world.  Express doubt of this outlandish claim and you will be pronounced ignorant, foolish and lacking of common sense.
6.Creationists will make outrageously false statements and ignore all correction or rebuttal. They will make no defense of these statements but act as if they are obvious fact.
7.Creationists get all their ideas and conceptions of what evolution is and how it works from their preacher or bible filtered through a distorted infantile view of the universe. They are blind to scientific claims because to them valid truths come only from authority.  Authority is always right, it never has doubts or makes conditional statements, and its pronouncements are absolute and never change to accommodate new evidence. Because science can not and will not work this way Creationists reject it claiming it to be inconsistent and uncertain and therefore lacking in substance and truth.

Advocatus:

Note how Champ mines your responses and only chooses the easy targets that allow the use of vague biblical passages for answers to your questions.  Note also that real world evidence is never cited and if it is it comes not from mainstream science but from the pap of diploma mill creation “scientists”.  If and when you do get answers they come as bible platitudes or from the unpublished pronouncements of pseudo scientists who are in pursuit of converts instead of the truth.

Global Village Idiot:

Notice that you have received no response from Champ.  You have done an outstanding job of explaining what science is and isn’t to him but did he get the message?  I think not.  You also did an excellent job of explaining how evolution works while countering the misconception that men evolved from apes.  Does he have a response?  Not if he can’t find a vague bible passage to dismiss your explanation.  Will he or has he acknowledged the difference in his way to truth verses that of science?  Has he made any attempt to show that his way to the truth is better than the way science works? No and no again because he has no bible rebuttal to any of this so he must remain silent.  It’s not in his book and his authority figures have no valid response that will stand the light of day so neither does Champ. 


Guest and Pete:

Note the outrageous claims and demands?
“By the way, you make lots of charges against the bible, but not one specific reference. Until you do so, all of your charges are hearsay.”

Why do you have to use his book to prove him wrong?

“Evolution, it just takes too great a leap of faith to believe in it. It’s such poppycock disguised at a reliable theory.”

This is an argument from authority or should I call it a claim.  Whose authority?  Note there is no reason given for why the leap of faith is so great or what a reliable theory is and why evolution isn’t one.  Also no defense or reason is given for why faith is even necessary.

“Creation is not a science??!!?? You are kidding me right?” Please note:

Obviously did not read or is just plain ignoring Global Village Idiot.

“Today there are thousands of scientists who are creationists and who repudiate any form of molecules-to-man evolution in their analysis and use of scientific data”.

“Molecules to man?”  Another outrageous statement that shows he knows little or nothing about evolution.  “Thousands of scientists who are creationists?”  Pure outrageous bull!!


“Creation scientists can now be found in literally every discipline of science, and their numbers are increasing rapidly. Evolutionists are finding it increasingly difficult to maintain the fiction that evolution is “science” and creation science is “religion”.”

More unsubstantiated outrageous bull!!  Obviously he has not heard of all the Supreme Court decisions since the Scopes trial and the scientific arguments that lead to those decisions.

“When news media personnel and others make such statements today, they merely reveal their own liberal social philosophies, not their awareness of scientific facts.”

Another outrageous statement and conclusion made out of the blue with no attempt made to give any evidence to support the statement or conclusion.

“For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.”

Here he ends with some vague quote from the bible that leaves one wondering what it has to do with anything he said before.  If you point this out he will tell you are ignorant and lack common sense.

Yes Pete he, like most of the other creationists I have encountered, is an arrogant fool.  No he has not read a biology book or a physics book nor has he read a geology book.  Even if he had his lack of a coherent view of the universe would not allow him to make the necessary connections that would allow him to see truth about the universe.  He probably reads only one book, a 3,000 year old book of fantasy and superstition and proudly proclaims it is all he needs.  He has no clue that he is lying about the thousands of scientists because he believes the authority figures from which this came and has no desire to leave his fantasy land and go out in the world to find out if it is true.


So I say Pete is right.  You can’t save someone that does not want to be saved.  I applaud Pete for his efforts at keeping the virus of creationism from spreading into the public school science classroom.  This is a vital, important and never ending job because the believers will continue their assault.  You can walk around outside the hospital offering treatment and inoculations for the virus of creationism but you will be met by angry parents and politicians who are already infected and who will consider your offer some sort of Commie plot.  Better to work to keep the hospital free from infection and a place for the willing to be treated and inoculated against this virus of ignorance and superstition.

Ray

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Posted: 22 February 2005 08:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]  
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Champion serves a useful purpose, in that he gives us all an insight into just how incredibly stupid most people are and how utterly pointless it is to try to reason with them.

We’ve been fighting this intellectual battle since the Enlightenment (and maybe since the Greeks), and with the exception of parts of Europe, the world has not made much progress. Even the commendable US consititution hasn’t protected the US from ancient zealotry.

So Champ, believe whatever you want. But do humanity a favor and please try to not multiply. Whatever design produced you, it certainly wasn’t intelligent. You are living proof of ‘dumb evolution’.

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