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What is it to think?
Posted: 19 July 2006 11:11 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]  
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Of course I know where you are going with this. I think the argument has been repeated 10 times. If they didn’t know evil then they could not be culpable of sin if they did know evil then the bible is untrue. blah blah. It is misses the point.

HS can do fine on his own.

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Posted: 19 July 2006 11:23 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]  
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[quote author=“frankr”]Of course I know where you are going with this. I think the argument has been repeated 10 times. If they didn’t know evil then they could not be culpable of sin if they did know evil then the bible is untrue. blah blah. It is misses the point.

Nope.  Wrong.  You don’t know where I am going with this.  Shall we reason together?  Or should I wait for HS?

AG

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Posted: 19 July 2006 11:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]  
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I will into fall into your trap so I will say Adam and Eve were aware that there were consequences to eating from the tree. They were aware that this was a directly disobedient to their maker. They ate not out of innocence but out of a desire to be like God. In other words pride and power. If this answer is insufficient wait for HS

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Posted: 19 July 2006 12:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]  
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[quote author=“frankr”]I will into fall into your trap so I will say Adam and Eve were aware that there were consequences to eating from the tree. They were aware that this was a directly disobedient to their maker. They ate not out of innocence but out of a desire to be like God. In other words pride and power. If this answer is insufficient wait for HS

I didn’t ask about “consequences” or disobedience.  Obviously, they’d been told not to eat from it in the story, so we can assume they knew they were being disobedient.  But, that wasn’t my question.

The question is: Did Adam possess “knowledge of good and evil” before he ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil? 

BTW, the journey, you will eventually see from the destination, is very much on-topic.

AG

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Posted: 19 July 2006 01:47 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]  
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This is difficult for me to steer clear of, since Frank understands the validity of evolution fact (and so does Rome), yet he doesn’t want to publicly corroborate such fact (of graduality in human development) and throw Champion under the bus.

I think I need a vacation.

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Philosophy may in no way interfere with the actual use of language; it can in the end only describe it. For it cannot give it any foundations either. It leaves everything as it is.
Ludwig Wittgenstein

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Posted: 19 July 2006 02:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]  
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Homunculus
This has nothing to do with evolution. AG is trying to bait me or HS into playing Glaucon to his Socrates. He asks questions worded in a very particular way so that if one of us says yes he can show us the folly of our ways. I thought he was going to disprove the claim of inerrancy of the Bible but it looks from his last post he may go the adam and eve story is a myth regarding the brith of reason. I do not know. I say if you have a point make it. Save the drama.  (that addressed to AG not to you Homunculus. I second that vacation talk.

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Posted: 19 July 2006 04:35 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]  
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AG, you’re a laywer right? maybe you argue cases maybe you don’t it doesn’t matter. Sometimes you may win a case you should have lost and sometimes you may lose a case you should have won. The guilty get off and the innocent get convicted. In all these cases, truth was not found and justice was not done and they may have been argued with the best reason and logic of both sides with two talented lawyers. But in the end there is only one truth, and that truth is outside the personalities and talents of the lawyers and everyone else involved. You may leave this thread with a good feeling that your logic, reason, and persuasion won the day, but there is a truth that you can’t reason away and that truth is that there is a God and we will all be called to account for our actions one day. But I’m not counting out frankr.

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Posted: 20 July 2006 01:30 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]  
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[quote author=“frankr”]he may go the adam and eve story is a myth regarding the brith of reason.

No.  But that’s an intruguing idea, too.  What do you mean, Frank?

AG

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Posted: 20 July 2006 01:31 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]  
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[quote author=“Humble Servant”]In all these cases, truth was not found and justice was not done and they may have been argued with the best reason and logic of both sides with two talented lawyers.

You are getting much warmer than Frank, HS.  If you meditated for a while on what you just said, I bet you’d see why I am mentioning the “Fall” from Genesis in this thread about Shakespeare.


AG

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Posted: 20 July 2006 10:29 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]  
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I hope it’s ok if I jump in. 

Going back to your original question (since I have no clue what you’re getting at)…I think without words.  When I read this post, I quickly reran the thoughts I had been having just prior.  I was focused on an interpersonal issue at work.  I was imagining in my mind how my different actions would play out, like little skits.  Don’t words only come into play when you attempt to communicate your thoughts - likely in a mental planning session before the actual communication?  (Or am I also a little autistic??)  Maybe many of us spend a great deal of time planning our communication, which is what makes us think we think with words.

IMO, thinking is 100% problem-solving.  I’m bored, I’m hungry, I’m horny, I’m late with something at work.  Our goal, always, is to minimize discomfort.  And one of the biggest “discomforts” is man’s need for meaning.  My biggest pet peeve is when someone says “everything happens for a reason”.  Dear god, no it doesn’t!  But it’s this need for meaning that has served us well, and led to our evolution into the complicated beings we are today (as compared with, say, a turtle).  Our need for meaning also explains why so many hang on to those religious myths. 

I’ll also just throw this out.  I suspect there is no free will.  If we understood fully how the human body synthesized all of their sensory input, and if we understood fully the total history of a person – every experience that person had had, I believe we could predict that person’s behavior 100% of the time.  And if we were ever clever enough to get there, this would negate free will.

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Posted: 20 July 2006 12:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]  
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Sounds about right, VW. A lot of cognition amounts to running if/then routines. “Smart” people are most able to recollect or somehow conjure up “data” and hold on to it in a “cache” that equates to RAM capacity. The more RAM capacity, I would say, the more likely it is that the person is seen as being smart. Once it’s in the cache, various data can variously be compared, manipulated, discarded, and added to—all at lightning speed.

Many of these routines involve achieving comfort or maintaining health-survival, and others consist of mental routines that allow us to fulfill our obligations such as those connected with work. In a broad sense, yes it all comes down to achievement of comfort, pleasure and longevity.

Words themselves, I would agree, are unnecessary for much cognitive activity. But the concepts that are captured by words are very necessary for most of us. In other words, a person who lacks access to words also lacks access to concepts. I think it’s safe to assume that their thinking styles must be very different from yours and mine.

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Philosophy may in no way interfere with the actual use of language; it can in the end only describe it. For it cannot give it any foundations either. It leaves everything as it is.
Ludwig Wittgenstein

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Posted: 20 July 2006 01:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]  
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[quote author=“homunculus”]Words themselves, I would agree, are unnecessary for much cognitive activity. But the concepts that are captured by words are very necessary for most of us. In other words, a person who lacks access to words also lacks access to concepts. I think it’s safe to assume that their thinking styles must be very different from yours and mine.

Yes, homunculus, that is why Jesus spoke in parables.

Hey, aren’t you glad I AM blessed you with a wide bandwidth of cache. Too bad you don’t use it to glorify him with it.

It is a shame that the world over mankind has rejected the one who lovingly took the time to pour over the myriad of processes related to conception, birth, puberty, growth into adulthood, not missing any intricate detail in creating a fearfully and wonderfully made human. Yes, man is wonderfully and fearfully made. Man has a free will. But will man listen to the voice of God.

Brains and wisdom are two different things. Let him who lacks wisdom he should inquire with God, and if he does, he will find it, receive it, get it, understand it, use it.

If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him. But when he asks, he must believe and not doubt, because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. That man should not think he will receive anything from the Lord; he is a double-minded man, unstable in all he does.
James 1:5-8

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Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light. Matt 11:28-29

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Posted: 20 July 2006 01:27 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]  
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TheChampion wrote:

...But will man listen to the voice of God.

Brains and wisdom are two different things. Let him who lacks wisdom he should inquire with God, and if he does, he will find it, receive it, get it, understand it, use it.

If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him. But when he asks, he must believe and not doubt, because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. That man should not think he will receive anything from the Lord; he is a double-minded man, unstable in all he does.
James 1:5-8

Priceless choice of scripture, TheChampion.  Priceless.  Did you know that Joseph Smith used this exact scripture in the epistle of James to propel him to seek out which of all the religions of his 19th century day was the correct one? Here, read Smith’s words:

11 While I was laboring under the extreme difficulties caused by the contests of these parties of religionists, I was one day reading the Epistle of James, first chapter and fifth verse, which reads:

If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.  

12 Never did any passage of scripture come with more power to the heart of man than this did at this time to mine. It seemed to enter with great force into every feeling of my heart. I reflected on it again and again, knowing that if any person needed wisdom from God, I did; for how to act I did not know, and unless I could get more wisdom than I then had, I would never know; for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible.

13 At length I came to the conclusion that I must either remain in darkness and confusion, or else I must do as James directs, that is, ask of God. I at length came to the determination to “ask of God,” concluding that if he gave wisdom to them that lacked wisdom, and would give liberally, and not upbraid, I might venture.

14 So, in accordance with this, my determination to ask of God, I retired to the woods to make the attempt. It was on the morning of a beautiful, clear day, early in the spring of eighteen hundred and twenty. It was the first time in my life that I had made such an attempt, for amidst all my anxieties I had never as yet made the attempt to pray vocally.

15 After I had retired to the place where I had previously designed to go, having looked around me, and finding myself alone, I kneeled down and began to offer up the desires of my heart to God. I had scarcely done so, when immediately I was seized upon by some power which entirely overcame me, and had such an astonishing influence over me as to bind my tongue so that I could not speak. Thick darkness gathered around me, and it seemed to me for a time as if I were doomed to sudden destruction.

16 But, exerting all my powers to call upon God to deliver me out of the power of this enemy which had seized upon me, and at the very moment when I was ready to sink into despair and abandon myself to destruction—not to an imaginary ruin, but to the power of some actual being from the unseen world, who had such marvelous power as I had never before felt in any being—just at this moment of great alarm, I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me.

17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!

source: http://scriptures.lds.org/en/js_h/1

Repent, TheChampion!  Turn away from your ignorance!  You are in the wrong religion!  Your words:

TheChhampion wrote:

...But will man listen to the voice of God.

Brains and wisdom are two different things. Let him who lacks wisdom he should inquire with God, and if he does, he will find it, receive it, get it, understand it, use it.

Which voice of “god” do you recommend we listen to?  Which one are you listening to?  How will you refute Joseph Smith’s claim that he saw god and formed Mormonism under that direction?  Nearly 12 million Mormons ask god if Joseph Smith’s claim is a true one, they all receive powerfully convincing answers in the affirmative.  Joyous feelings well up inside them and they revel in ecstacy that god has revealed His matchless truth to them in Mormonism. 

Now, there is some wisdom for you.  What makes your revelation any more special?  You never answer me when I corner you like this.  You always seem to just let a few posts go by on the thread thus burying my questions…

Noggin

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Posted: 20 July 2006 02:03 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]  
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Noggin, sorry, never tried to avoid you.

I am an Evangelical. That should tell you all you need to know regarding the subject at hand.

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Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light. Matt 11:28-29

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Posted: 20 July 2006 02:50 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]  
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[quote author=“TheChampion”]. . . Yes, homunculus, that is why Jesus spoke in parables.

Champ, I wasn’t referring to wisdom, but raw cognitive processing power. And my discussion about how smart a person is was only meant to clarify my points. People can learn from a wisely thought-out parable whether they have a high IQ or low.

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Philosophy may in no way interfere with the actual use of language; it can in the end only describe it. For it cannot give it any foundations either. It leaves everything as it is.
Ludwig Wittgenstein

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