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Posted: 24 August 2006 07:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]  
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eucaryote
Black holes are weak? Nothing can escape from their gravity, not even light and they are not super powerfull? Wow.

So why do you spend time here hangin’ with the heathens, trying out weak arguments, refusing to answer my question…...

I came here out of lark because I saw Sam in his dynamic speach months ago and I thought I would come here and see if everybody had the same misunderstanding about scripture.

your faith isn’t a little weak is it?

Does this come from chapter ten of the atheist guide to convert Christians? My faith is stronger now than when I came here. If you are going to stay here for a while you ought to update your profile, we’d like to know something about you, for example do you hate yourself as much as you hate America?

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Posted: 25 August 2006 12:13 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]  
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HS said, in part:

Does this come from chapter ten of the atheist guide to convert Christians? My faith is stronger now than when I came here. If you are going to stay here for a while you ought to update your profile, we’d like to know something about you, for example do you hate yourself as much as you hate America?”

Does this “Hate America ” come straight from Rush Limbaugh’s talking points against any argument he or Ann Coulter doesn’t like.  You might also add “Hate Freedom” that’s one that’s another non sequitor that is routinely thrown out to avoid addressing issues directly. 

Your in luck , he’ll be on again today to tell you how your suppose to think and how liberals hate America, Freedom, have never eaten apple pie or played baseball.  It really adds a lot to the dialogue.

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Posted: 25 August 2006 01:57 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]  
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H. Finn

Does this “Hate America ” come straight from Rush Limbaugh’s talking points against any argument he or Ann Coulter doesn’t like.

I don’t listen to Rush, I much prefer Dennis Prager and Michael Medved. I suppose you would have me listen to Al Franken or Geanine Garafalo?

This may not be pure America hate speach but it is vile none the less. It is one thing to be anti-war, but this also hints at anti-military and the fine men we have serving their country. He may not know that it was men like these that has secured his freedom and continues to, whether he is an American or not. Apparently he is ashamed to reveal his country or state of origin.


eucaryote

Everything from Abu Gharaib to littering the Iraqi countryside with depleted uranium. White, Christian, American soldiers with crosses hanging from their necks have brutalized, tortured, murdered, raped, and pillaged, using their high tech weapons with medieval zeal.

We invade and occupy another country; pillage and steal everything that’s not tied down; lay waste to entire cities as in Fallujah; kill 10’s of 1000’s of innocent people, destroy their infrastructure; poison their water; confiscate their resources and commit a growing number of henious war crimes, etc. etc.
Then we have the sheer gall to indulge the “belief” that we are somehow less violent and more civilized than others?

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Posted: 25 August 2006 02:31 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]  
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[quote author=“Humble Servant”]This may not be pure America hate speach but it is vile none the less. It is one thing to be anti-war, but this also hints at anti-military and the fine men we have serving their country. He may not know that it was men like these that has secured his freedom and continues to, whether he is an American or not. Apparently he is ashamed to reveal his country or state of origin.

“Fine men serving our country.”
I grant that most of the men (AND WOMEN!!!) serving our country are fine people.  In fact many of them are more than that; some are down right terrific people.  But you cannot deny that many are also awful people.  Those who took part in the atrocities at Abu Ghraib are not fine young men and women.  But they are Americans; this country produced them.  That is something we can never forget.

The phrase “fine young men” is a conversation stopper.  It puts an end to legitimate conversation about the (all too many) abuses of our military.  Just because you hate it when our military personel engage in reprehensible behaviour this does not mean that you hate the military!!

By the way, I for one think that it is morally repugnant that those responsible for the killings at Haditha (among others) might face the death penalty for their crimes whereas those who sent them into Iraq will never face charges.  Our government told our soldiers that Iraq was connected to 9/11, they told them that the country was connected to terrorism, they gove them guns and told them to kill people.  Anyone put in that kind of an environment is likely to lose full control of his rational capacities.  This does not excuse their behavior.  But we should be just as concerned about the crimes of our leaders who sent these men and women over there to begin with. (Crimes like lying to the American people and Congress, repeatedly and demonstrably).

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What do I care for a hell for oppressors? What good can hell do, since those children have already been tortured? And what becomes of harmony, if there is hell? I want to forgive. I want to embrace. I don’t want more suffering. And if the sufferings of children go to swell the sum of sufferings which was necessary to pay for truth, then I protest that the truth is not worth such a price.
-Ivan Karamazov

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Posted: 25 August 2006 02:44 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]  
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[quote author=“waltercat”]“Fine men serving our country.”
I grant that most of the men (AND WOMEN!!!) serving our country are fine people.  In fact many of them are more than that; some are down right terrific people.  But you cannot deny that many are also awful people.


Having served in the military I can assure you with a high degree of confidence this is absolutely true . . . besides of course the fact that it’s patently obvious.

Cheerleading for the home team may feel good to those who need higher levels of group identify affirmation, but more responsible, objective and intellectually disciplined people prefer to accept reality for what it is.

Byron

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“We say, ‘Love your brother…’ We don’t say it really, but… Well we don’t literally say it. We don’t really, literally mean it. No, we don’t believe it either, but… But that message should be clear.”—David St. Hubbins

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Posted: 25 August 2006 03:42 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]  
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HS says;

I don’t listen to Rush, I much prefer Dennis Prager and Michael Medved. I suppose you would have me listen to Al Franken or Geanine Garafalo?

I don’t listen to any of these people.  I think part of the problem in this country (and admittedly I have done the same on these posts) is that the polarized sides cannot admit that the other side might actually be decent people who simply have very strongly differing views.  (Great quote from Alistar Cooke.  “The Constitution was designed for a people with fundamentally differing values.)

Neither you nor I in our exchanges have actually expected to change the other’s mind.  I guess I missed the post you were intially responding too.  But when you , as well as many others,  say things like “liberals hate America” it pretty much eliminates the hope of a thoughtful reponse.

I don’t think Rush Limbaugh or Michael Moore do much good (although admittedly as a liberal I think Michael Moore is sometimes funny, but even I didn’t like him picking on Charleton Heston.)

I know you and Champ will belittle me as a liberal but I still think one the best sources of balanced news is NPR. (that’s ok, i have already belittled you guys on a separate thread this am)

Most stories try to present both sides.  I have to agree however, that one may argue that NPR is liberal by the stories it chooses to present.  You don’t here much about Darfur or even the personal stories of people in New Orleans much on other media.

Anyway lets get back to it.  “Conservatives hate the Constitution”- so there

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Posted: 25 August 2006 07:06 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]  
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[quote author=“Humble Servant”]eucaryote
Black holes are weak? Nothing can escape from their gravity, not even light and they are not super powerfull? Wow.

Dear Mr Servant,

No, your argument ragarding inference from effects on surroundings, is weak. A phrase like “super powerfull” doesn’t mean anything, even if you do spell powerful with two L’s. Black holes are regions of gravity that are sufficiently high to bend light. That is a direct measure of their gravity. No need to spin it. This is how science works.

I came here out of lark because I saw Sam in his dynamic speach months ago and I thought I would come here and see if everybody had the same misunderstanding about scripture.

You came here “out of lark”........can’t say I understand you, please clarify? I really am curious as to your motivation.

Sam seems to have studied his scriptures very well. Just because someone doesn’ agree with you doesn’t mean they don’t understand. I think that in the case of the bible and christianity, it’s not like it’s the proverbial rocket science, hard to understand that is,......at least if you can get past the obtuse language.

your faith isn’t a little weak is it?

Does this come from chapter ten of the atheist guide to convert Christians? My faith is stronger now than when I came here. If you are going to stay here for a while you ought to update your profile, we’d like to know something about you, for example do you hate yourself as much as you hate America?

Hmmmm, I don’t think that it’s possible to convert someone to a belief system that doesn’t exist, which would be my belief system of choice if I were into believing in things…..which I am not…...just to return to the original point of this thread.

I suggested that your fascination with atheists and atheism, as evidenced by the numer of posts you, (and others) have in this forum might be some indication that your faith might be weak. That seems like a logical connection to make, don’t you think? If I were to start going to church, and hanging out with jesus freaks then that might be some indication that I wanted to start believing religion. Of course in your case, it’s probably your unconcious rational mind screaming for release from the denial of reality it’s subjected to.

And, other than the curious, “lark” comment, you haven’t answered. Could you please expand on this larking idea? Do you know why you do it?

Am I ashamed to tell you where I come from….No. I think that what you are really curious about is cultural information rather than geographic but how’s this?
My own family were French and English before they were Mexicans, before they were Texans which was before they were Americans. I was born in OK, and grew up in Corpus Christi TX, I went to high school in a little town outside of Princeton NJ, from which I rode my bicycle to Montana where I have made my home for the past 35 years. I hope that this establishes my credentials for you. I think that I am at least as American as you.

I don’t hate myself and I don’t hate America and as an American I resent these insinuations on your part.
I do find it interesting how you jump to extreme meme’s of this kind.  Anyone who doesn’t agree with you or is an America hater. The other posters are right, the whole phrase “America hater” comes right out extreme right wing media. You are just repeating crap that’s been placed in your head, responding to the meme just as you are supposed to. Seems a mind like yours might be fertile ground for such infections.
Be careful, you are what you eat.

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Posted: 25 August 2006 07:32 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]  
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H. Finn

Anyway lets get back to it. “Conservatives hate the Constitution”- so there

If conservatives hate the constitution, why are they the ones that appoint (or try to appoint) Supreme Court Justices that are “originalists”, they try to judge based on our constitution and not on the rule of law or precedents of other countries?

By the way, I for one think that it is morally repugnant that those responsible for the killings at Haditha (among others)

Those marines have not been convicted yet, though Murtha has done his best to sway the country. But I guess it will all be worth it if the republicans are voted out of office right?

Our government told our soldiers that Iraq was connected to 9/11,

No they weren’t

they told them that the country was connected to terrorism, they gove them guns and told them to kill people.

It is part of the war on terror, or would you rather them come over here? Would you still be so cavalier about our efforts to fight radical Islamist if their were a democrats head and reputation on the line in the White House?

Here is a thread from one of your compatriots that went on a while ago. You will find it under the politics forum and the “moral quandry” thread:

Andrew

I’m eaten up by guilt lately, and I wonder if it’s warrented. I want BushCo to fail in Iraq. I really, really want the American public to become so fed up with the war…I want the current administration to become so thoroughly discredited…that the Republicans disappear from the political radar for the forseeable future. Hopefully not to raise their ugly heads again until I’m dead and gone.
I say this because I honestly feel that George Bush and his supporters are as big a threat to what I perceive to be the American way of life, if not a bigger threat, than Osama bin Laden and his supporters could ever be.
Unfortunately, I think the only thing that will bring about the defeat of the Republicans this fall is if the war(s) were to become even more bogged down and deadly…if the bodies of American troops started piling up at an even greater rate. If one accepts that our society and way of life are worth the sacrifice of the men and women we put in harm’s way to preserve and protect it (which I do), is it immoral to hope that enough American troops are sacrificed in Iraq and Afghanistan between now and November that the Republican majority goes down to total, irrevocable defeat?

This is an appalling statement but at least he had the guts to say what many liberals think. The hatred for George Bush that has been fomented by the democratic leadership has split the country in two and we are straining under the pressure, but rather than faer the currentent situation the DNC is revelling in it. Hate, hate, hate. Defend yourself all you want, history will not be a kind judge of your leaders who have placed their political desires above the safety of the nation.

This does not excuse their behavior. But we should be just as concerned about the crimes of our leaders who sent these men and women over there to begin with. (Crimes like lying to the American people and Congress, repeatedly and demonstrably).

Bush practically read from the scripts that Clinton, Kerry, Gore, Pelosi, and Daschle spoke just months earlier. Why was Bush lying when he just repeatred the words of the people that were in power before him?

SkepticX

Cheerleading for the home team may feel good to those who need higher levels of group identify affirmation, but more responsible, objective and intellectually disciplined people prefer to accept reality for what it is.

You are probably right on this point Skeptic, after all, who says that our sons and daughters 9000 miles from home who are putting their very lives at risk every day needs any of our support? It is only a war after all, I guess we should be unbiased as to who we want to prevail. Is that what you think? Are you pulling for the trrops in fatigues as hard as you are the ones in the sheets and sandals? You’ve got one half of the country pulling in one direction and the other half wants nothing more than to see the ones with their hands on the rope lose their grip.

more responsible, objective and intellectually disciplined people prefer to accept reality for what it is.

If all you did was talk amongst yourselves about the situation that would be ok, unfortunately you scream from the rooftops and give aid and comfort to the enemy. They know that the liberals over here are becoming unhinged and they are just waiting for us to bug out. When that happens, you will truly have done your part for victory. If only it had been “America’s” victory.

(Andrew): Well…I don’t envision anything like the Beirut barracks bombing or anything like that…I think a steady loss of 8-15 troops a week for a couple of months would do the trick.

Spoken like a true democrat!

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Posted: 25 August 2006 07:54 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]  
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[quote author=“Humble Servant”]

Our government told our soldiers that Iraq was connected to 9/11,

No they weren’t

You’re ignorance amazes me. Take a look at these:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/vicepresident/news-speeches/speeches/vp20011209.html

http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0314/p02s01-woiq.html

[quote author=“Humble Servant”]

they told them that the country was connected to terrorism, they gove them guns and told them to kill people.

It is part of the war on terror, or would you rather them come over here? Would you still be so cavalier about our efforts to fight radical Islamist if their were a democrats head and reputation on the line in the White House?

It is part of the war on terror because, by going over there, we have created countless terrorists.  But Iraq had NOTHING to do with 9/11, was not connected to the terrorists who attacked us (contrary to “it’s been pretty well connfirmed” Cheney (see the first link)), and the Iraq war has distracted us from combating the real enemies.  The Iraq was has been a HUGE setback in the war on terror. 

I, unlike you it appears, don’t give a damn which party a lying President belongs to.  I prefer to confront reality as it is, rather than believe the many false things you do so that I can be more comfortable!

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What do I care for a hell for oppressors? What good can hell do, since those children have already been tortured? And what becomes of harmony, if there is hell? I want to forgive. I want to embrace. I don’t want more suffering. And if the sufferings of children go to swell the sum of sufferings which was necessary to pay for truth, then I protest that the truth is not worth such a price.
-Ivan Karamazov

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Posted: 25 August 2006 08:06 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]  
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eucaryote
You might want to check your own spelling before you criticize others. I don’t know that your punctuation is proper either, but neither is mine. I bring this up only to remind you of the saying that people in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones.

You came here “out of lark”........can’t say I understand you, please clarify?

Meant to say “on a lark”. Possibly a phrase that doesn’t see much use anymore.
Lark;  to engage in harmless fun or mischief

suggested that your fascination with atheists and atheism, as evidenced by the numer of posts you, (and others) have in this forum might be some indication that your faith might be weak. That seems like a logical connection to make, don’t you think? If I were to start going to church, and hanging out with jesus freaks then that might be some indication that I wanted to start believing religion. Of course in your case, it’s probably your unconcious rational mind screaming for release from the denial of reality it’s subjected to.

After you have spent some time here you will see that many of your fellow atheist do almost as much reasding about religion, the history of religion, and even some Apologetics, as they do anything else. Would you say that they are trying to convert to theists? I think not.

Anyone who doesn’t agree with you or is an America hater. The other posters are right, the whole phrase “America hater” comes right out extreme right wing media. You are just repeating crap that’s been placed in your head, responding to the meme just as you are supposed to.

Extreme right wing media….....did you come up with that on your own or are you just reapeating what you hear Hillary and Ted and NPR say? There are two sides to your coin. In your world the democrats are in the middle trying to make the world a better place and about a light year to the right is all conservatives except McCain, Snow, Chaffee, and Spector.  I don’t think you think there is any middle ground, you are wrong about this as well.

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Posted: 25 August 2006 08:26 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]  
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Gee HS, you really are kind of mean spirited. I thought you conservatives were a happy lot. Also, some of your stuff is really non -responsive and off the wall but you sure can use spellcheck.. I’ll show you, I’m just not going to respond anymore.  See how you like that. Have a nice day.

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Posted: 25 August 2006 09:03 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]  
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[quote author=“H. Finn”]Gee HS, you really are kind of mean spirited. I thought you conservatives were a happy lot. Also, some of your stuff is really non -responsive and off the wall but you sure can use spellcheck.. I’ll show you, I’m just not going to respond anymore.  See how you like that. Have a nice day.

This goes to the question that has been discussed many times around here: “Should we ignore those who express no interest in genuine discussion.”  I say that, to the extent that a poster’s comments are totally non-responsive and/or only meant to inflame/ridicule, we should ignore them.  I continue to hope that HS is reason-responsive (at least to some extent).  I have lost all hope concerning The Champion’s capacity to be moved by reason. (Sorry if that sounds mean-spirited. It wasn’t meant to be.  I think Champ as admitted more than once that he isn’t all that impressed by logic and reason—e.g. “He wrote it, I believe it, that settles it” and “God thinks that logic is arrogance”)

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What do I care for a hell for oppressors? What good can hell do, since those children have already been tortured? And what becomes of harmony, if there is hell? I want to forgive. I want to embrace. I don’t want more suffering. And if the sufferings of children go to swell the sum of sufferings which was necessary to pay for truth, then I protest that the truth is not worth such a price.
-Ivan Karamazov

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Posted: 25 August 2006 01:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]  
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Waltercat, you are probably right, but HS has been so non-resposive, I’ve written him off. 

This is very difficult because i wrote the Champ offbefore but failed, but G**damn it (asterisks in repsect to those guys) sometimes it is just so hard not to respond to their idiocy. But as of today i am going to try not to. (ok just one more time to Champ , but after that its the 12 step program-1 admit that you have a responding problem, etc) 

frankr is sometimes thoughtful so maybe I’ll respond, or is this like saying I can have just one drink.  Maybe I should go back to the post about whether it is worthwhile debating religionists and change my answer to “no” (ok that’s a lie, I said no the first time-step 2 oh, never mind..)

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Posted: 25 August 2006 02:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]  
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[quote author=“H. Finn”]frankr is sometimes thoughtful so maybe I’ll respond, or is this like saying I can have just one drink.  Maybe I should go back to the post about whether it is worthwhile debating religionists and change my answer to “no” (ok that’s a lie, I said no the first time-step 2 oh, never mind..)

frankr is thoughtful (though sometimes he can be a tad bit cruel, though usually in good fun).  Though I agree much more with others, I think he is probably one of the most important people to pay attention to around here.  It is important to know what those who disagree with you think. And it is very useful to engage him in debate because he will respond and he will take you seriously (Almost always).  And many times you’ll learn something important from him.

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What do I care for a hell for oppressors? What good can hell do, since those children have already been tortured? And what becomes of harmony, if there is hell? I want to forgive. I want to embrace. I don’t want more suffering. And if the sufferings of children go to swell the sum of sufferings which was necessary to pay for truth, then I protest that the truth is not worth such a price.
-Ivan Karamazov

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Posted: 25 August 2006 02:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]  
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ok, I’ll trust you on this , perhaps because your signature has my favorite passage in the Bible.  My second favorite Is Isaiah 5:8

“Woe unto them that join house to house , that lay field to field, till there be no place, that they may be placed alone in the midst of the earth”

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