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Posted: 25 August 2006 03:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]  
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when all they can do is repeat fox news talking points, you know you are not talking to a person with any critical thinking ability at all.

they are programmed, spoon fed sheeple.

it is fun to engage them from time to time, but don’t think you will get anywhere with them.

I like the idea that somewhere down deep, their rational mind is trying to get free, but I suppose they keep it from escaping by feeding it Fox News 8 hours a day.

The funniest thing is they accuse the liberals of being facist and marching in lock step, when we are very differentiated in our views = )  The only thing that unites us now is fear of their brand of fascism.

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Posted: 25 August 2006 05:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]  
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[quote author=“SkepticX”][quote author=“waltercat”]“Fine men serving our country.”
I grant that most of the men (AND WOMEN!!!) serving our country are fine people.  In fact many of them are more than that; some are down right terrific people.  But you cannot deny that many are also awful people.


Having served in the military I can assure you with a high degree of confidence this is absolutely true . . . besides of course the fact that it’s patently obvious.

Cheerleading for the home team may feel good to those who need higher levels of group identify affirmation, but more responsible, objective and intellectually disciplined people prefer to accept reality for what it is.

Byron

Thanks Byron, I appreciate your giving me the benefit of any doubt you may have. You are correct, all I am trying to do is accept reality for what it is. The sports analogy fails at some point though as our military is not a team playing a game.

I am trying to clearly acknowledge and take responsibility as an American, who necessarily supports the military, for what WE as a people and culture are doing currently with our military. This is what Mr. Servant would find that his list of talking points would call “hating America”. This is otherwise and more correctly known, as democracy.

Sam Harris spends a great deal of time speaking to the need to derive a rational basis for ethics from our experience. This seems expecially necessary for those who reject religion and the so called ethical codes that they supposedly follow.

I agree with the need to take this responsibility to identify ethics and moral values and consider it a right and responsibility of all human beings; one we share with other creatures, (virtually all of whom know their place, we are the only creatures that are universally feared).

Unfortunately I am deeply disappointed when I look to see the kind of values that we as Americans are using our military to enforce. I am deeply disappointed when I see our children, including our young soldiers, trained to respond to others with racism and fear and xenophobia and religionism and to justify and embrace violent conflict. In our American culture violence is entertainment.

As far as the religious connection goes, check out this link. http://www.prospect.org/web/page.ww?section=root&name=ViewWeb&articleId=11628

With respect to the so called war in Iraq, these are the facts,

We and our troops invaded foreign country without provovation and under false pretenses.
We and our troops have killed thousands and thousands of Iraqi’s who were completely innocent. We call our mistakes collateral and don’t even bother to count the dead. Those we kill that we call insurgents are simply defending themselve and their country just as we would defend ourselves if invaded, anyway we could.

We kill in some of the cruelest ways. Cluster bombs, white phosphorous and depleted uranium. We deliberately destroy life sustaining infrastructure, water electricity, transportation. We are proud of torturing those we capture. Our troops have now committed a growing number of sub atrocities as in Haditha.

We have killed at least 2500 some odd American kids and wounded thousands. But the American people don’t care. I find this most reprehensible. When they are no longer useful to us we just throw them away. I don’t think that we would find that Humble Servant and the other true believers who send our kids to die for their stupid ideologies care at all about the ones that are wasted. In the absence of a draft, they are typically economically disadvantaged, ignorant and easily taken advantage of. Classic cannon fodder.

We now occupy that country with the obvious intent to stay eg. 14 permanent military bases and the largest, fortified US embassy in the world. We have stolen and privatized their natural resources. In our stupid blundering, we have created a power vacuum that has started an internal civil/relligious war.

The entire invasion and subsequent war is illegal. Those that committed this act are guilty of war crimes. That includes the troops, our leaders and of course us, the great American people. At the Nuremberg trials it was determined that individual soldiers are responsible for illegal or immoral acts despite the orders they were given.

There is little question that for religious zealots like our friend the Servant, these wars are religious/culture wars. That is how it’s been sold to them. Like all such zealots of all cultures, they commit incredible atrocities without batting an eye. We all know that Nazi troops went into battle with belt buckles that ensured to them that “Gott mit uns”. This of course is something that every American political leader never fails to mention with respect to the carnage that we have created in the world. I begin to feel like I must know what it was like to live in Nazi Germany in the late ‘30’s. Clearly they supported their troops, and insisted that all their actions were moral.

Servant is right about one thing. I am one ashamed American.

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Posted: 25 August 2006 05:47 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]  
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I think that Mark Twain would appreciate my posting of one of his great stories.

The War Prayer

by Mark Twain

It was a time of great and exalting excitement. The country was up in arms, the war was on, in every breast burned the holy fire of patriotism; the drums were beating, the bands playing, the toy pistols popping, the bunched firecrackers hissing and sputtering; on every hand and far down the receding and fading spreads of roofs and balconies a fluttering wilderness of flags flashed in the sun; daily the young volunteers marched down the wide avenue gay and fine in their new uniforms, the proud fathers and mothers and sisters and sweethearts cheering them with voices choked with happy emotion as they swung by; nightly the packed mass meetings listened, panting, to patriot oratory which stirred the deepest deeps of their hearts and which they interrupted at briefest intervals with cyclones of applause, the tears running down their cheeks the while; in the churches the pastors preached devotion to flag and country and invoked the God of Battles, beseeching His aid in our good cause in outpouring of fervid eloquence which moved every listener.

It was indeed a glad and gracious time, and the half dozen rash spirits that ventured to disapprove of the war and cast a doubt upon its righteousness straightway got such a stern and angry warning that for their personal safety’s sake they quickly shrank out of sight and offended no more in that way.

Sunday morning came – next day the battalions would leave for the front; the church was filled; the volunteers were there, their faces alight with material dreams-visions of a stern advance, the gathering momentum, the rushing charge, the flashing sabers, the flight of the foe, the tumult, the enveloping smoke, the fierce pursuit, the surrender! – then home from the war, bronzed heros, welcomed, adored, submerged in golden seas of glory! With the volunteers sat their dear ones, proud, happy, and envied by the neighbors and friends who had no sons and brothers to send forth to the field of honor, there to win for the flag or, failing, die the noblest of noble deaths. The service proceeded; a war chapter from the Old Testament was read; the first prayer was said; it was followed by an organ burst that shook the building, and with one impulse the house rose, with glowing eyes and beating hearts, and poured out that tremendous invocation – “God the all-terrible! Thou who ordainest, Thunder thy clarion and lightning thy sword!”

Then came the “long” prayer. None could remember the like of it for passionate pleading and moving and beautiful language. The burden of its supplication was that an ever – merciful and benignant Father of us all would watch over our noble young soldiers and aid, comfort, and encourage them in their patriotic work; bless them, shield them in His mighty hand, make them strong and confident, invincible in the bloody onset; help them to crush the foe, grant to them and to their flag and country imperishable honor and glory.

An aged stranger entered and moved with slow and noiseless step up the main aisle, his eyes fixed upon the minister, his long body clothed in a robe that reached to his feet, his head bare, his white hair descending in a frothy cataract to his shoulders, his seamy face unnaturally pale, pale even to ghastliness. With all eyes 3following him and wondering, he made his silent way; without pausing, he ascended to the preacher’s side and stood there, waiting.

With shut lids the preacher, unconscious of his presence, continued his moving prayer, and at last finished it with the words, uttered in fervent appeal,“Bless our arms, grant us the victory, O Lord our God, Father and Protector of our land and flag!”

The stranger touched his arm, motioned him to step aside – which the startled minister did – and took his place. During some moments he surveyed the spellbound audience with solemn eyes in which burned an uncanny light; then in a deep voice he said

“I come from the Throne – bearing a message from Almighty God!” The words smote the house with a shock; if the stranger perceived it he gave no attention. “He has heard the prayer of His servant your shepherd and grant it if such shall be your desire after I, His messenger, shall have explained to you its import – that is to say, its full import. For it is like unto many of the prayers of men, in that it asks for more than he who utters it is aware of – except he pause and think.

“God’s servant and yours has prayed his prayer. Has he paused and taken thought? Is it one prayer? No, it is two – one uttered, the other not. Both have reached the ear of His Who hearth all supplications, the spoken and the unspoken. Ponder this – keep it in mind. If you beseech a blessing upon yourself, beware! lest without intent you invoke a curse upon a neighbor at the same time. If you pray for the blessing of rain upon your crop which needs it, by that act you are possibly praying for a curse upon some neighbor’s crop which may not need rain and can be injured by it.

“You have heard your servant’s prayer – the uttered part of it. I am commissioned by God to put into words the other part of it – that part which the pastor, and also you in your hearts, fervently prayed silently. And ignorantly and unthinkingly? God grant that it was so! You heard these words: ‘Grant us the victory, O Lord our God!’ That is sufficient. The whole of the uttered prayer is compact into those pregnant words. Elaborations were not necessary. When you have prayed for victory you have prayed for many unmentioned results which follow victory – must follow it, cannot help but follow it. Upon the listening spirit of God the Father fell also the unspoken part of the prayer. He commandeth me to put it into words. Listen!

“O Lord our Father, our young patriots, idols of our hearts, go forth to battle – be Thou near them! With them, in spirit, we also go forth from the sweet peace of our beloved firesides to smite the foe. O Lord our God, help us to tear their soldiers to bloody shreds with our shells; help us to cover their smiling fields with the pale forms of their patriot dead; help us to drown the thunder of the guns with the shrieks of their wounded, writhing in pain; help us to lay waste their humble homes with a hurricane of fire; help us to wring the hearts of their unoffending widows with unavailing grief; help us to turn them out roofless with their little children to wander unfriended the wastes of their desolated land in rags and hunger and thirst, sports of the sun flames of summer and the icy winds of winter, broken in spirit, worn with travail, imploring Thee for the refuge of the grave and denied it – for our sakes who adore Thee, Lord, blast their hopes, blight their lives, protract their bitter pilgrimage, make heavy their steps, water their way with their tears, stain the white snow with the blood of their wounded feet! We ask it, in the spirit of love, of Him Who is the Source of Love, and Who is ever-faithful refuge and friend of all that are sore beset and seek His aid with humble and contrite hearts. Amen.

(After a pause)

“Ye have prayed it; if ye still desire it, speak! The messenger of the Most High waits.”

It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said.

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Posted: 26 August 2006 01:45 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]  
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Iisbliss

when all they can do is repeat fox news talking points, you know you are not talking to a person with any critical thinking ability at all.

How odd that you would mention Fox News! You can identify it as being something that you don’t agree with. I can say the same thing about CNN, MSNBC, CBS, ABC, NPR and NBC most of the time. That is because 90% of the news and commentary you get from those stations are liberal. You however find them more to your liking. Let me put this to you in a way that even you will be able to get it. Lets say that on the internet there are only 7 forums that a person can go to and exchange ideas with people across the globe on an assortment of subjects.  Now let’s say that three of these forums consist of mostly Christian people and the moderators keep the content on point for the most part. Three of the other forums are for the other religions of the world and the last one is a forum for Atheists or agnostics. Which forum are you going to spend the lions share of your time in, in forums that drive you nuts and that totally disagree with your world view, or the one that fits nicely into your own world view and that feel most comfortable?

There is a reason that Fox is around, half the country never felt like we were getting honest news for years. When you are a conservative and most of the stories slant against conservatives and are friendly to liberal groups you know that things aren’t as fair and balanced as uncle Cronkite was telling us. Fox was created because of the main stream media.

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Posted: 26 August 2006 09:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]  
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humble, its not very humble to insinuate that because I have liberal viewpoints I do not for some reason “get” that entertainment news has biases.

however, the bias of Fox News is so incredible and prevalent, that EVEN A Moron like you should be able to see that you are being told what to think, not given the news.

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Posted: 26 August 2006 11:03 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]  
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[quote author=“Humble Servant”]How odd that you would mention Fox News! You can identify it as being something that you don’t agree with. I can say the same thing about CNN, MSNBC, CBS, ABC, NPR and NBC most of the time.

H.S. I quit watching all those channels and Fox because I find them all slanted towards neo-con talking points. Just look at the way they just handled Judge Anna Diggs Taylor’s handling of the warrantless wiretapping case. All they did was parrot GOP talking points, not one station mentioned that it just could be “unconstitutional” and a possible victory for democracy. Not one! Fox is just so far right they hold hands with theocrats like Roberts and Harris whom they adore overtly.

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Posted: 26 August 2006 04:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]  
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[quote author=“Iisbliss”] you should be able to see that you are being told what to think, not given the news.

Iisbliss,

I think that Servant just told us that he does know that he is being told what to think, he likes it that way. The converse of that is that he likes being told what he wants to hear. Fox knows that they have a market for right wing BS and Servant knows that he(she) is part of that market.

Servant isn’t looking for information, he is looking for something to believe in that’s compatible with his existing beliefs.
In this thread, Servant has alreadey expressed ignorance of the knowledge that there were no WMD found in Iraq and there never was evidence of of WMD. More importantly, he(she) misses the knowledge that he(she) had been lied to previously, not just by Fox but by the entire Bush administration.

I recall that there have been polls done that show that a very high percentage people who claim to get their news from Fox also miss this knowledge. Interestingly, that information was available to milllions of people around the globe who knew they were being decieved at the time, well prior to the invasion of Iraq.

I recall myself and many other calling BS on Colin Powell when he gave his famous presentation to the UN. Everything he talked about turned out to be lies. Powell is a fool. Anyone who believed that crap is a fool, including Kerry and the idiot democrats that went along with the obvious lies of the Bushmen. No question that WE, (both parties) are guilty. We’ve made some enormous mistakes.

Anyway, Servant is hearing what he wants to hear and he likes it that way. Anything else would create a dissonance that he wouldn’t like. The easiest way to resolve it would be to change the input information. That’s allowed as long as one thinks that reality is a matter of what one believes. As long as one can maintain a non conflicting source of information it’s convienent, we have to admit. I gotta give Servant some credit for reading this as it’s clearly not consonant with his world view.

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Posted: 26 August 2006 04:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]  
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Neo-cons,  Neo-cons, Neo-cons!!!

Necons everywhere but not a reasonable conservative anywhere. How reasonable is that? Continue to wallow in your hate. It becomes you.

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Posted: 26 August 2006 05:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]  
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eucaryote,

Let me see if I’ve got this strait.

ME
1. I watch Fox news because I want to hear people that I agree with.  (True)
2. I don’t watch the other MSM because I am mostly offended by their slanted commentary and bias.  (true)
3. I am stupid

YOU
1. You watch the MSM because you want to here people that you agree with.  (True)
2. You don’t watch Fox News because you are mostly offended by their bias and slanted commentary.  (True)
3. You are smart.

Ok, I think I’ve got it. More hate, it seeps out of your pores. I read it everywhere here, Bush the fascist, Bush the Nazi, Christians who are going to destroy the world.

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Posted: 27 August 2006 02:28 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]  
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[quote author=“Humble Servant”]eucaryote,

Let me see if I’ve got this strait.

ME
1. I watch Fox news because I want to hear people that I agree with.  (True)
2. I don’t watch the other MSM because I am mostly offended by their slanted commentary and bias.  (true)
3. I am stupid

YOU
1. You watch the MSM because you want to here people that you agree with.  (True)
2. You don’t watch Fox News because you are mostly offended by their bias and slanted commentary.  (True)
3. You are smart.

Ok, I think I’ve got it. More hate, it seeps out of your pores. I read it everywhere here, Bush the fascist, Bush the Nazi, Christians who are going to destroy the world.

I think, HS, that many of us here wish that you would try to get your news from MULTIPLE sources, (and NO, Matt Drudge is not really a different source than FNC) and, more importantly, do what you can to check the accuracy of your news sources.  That means doing a bit of research—reading a newspaper from time to time, using the internet, and, of course, you MUST even look at the views/arguments of those you disagree with.
If eucaryote is like me, he(she) does not like Fox News because it consistently gives false and/or misleading information (check out mediamatters.com for some examples).  And, if he is like me, he still watches Fox News (at least on occasion, and not just for laughs) because it is important to hear what those with whom you disagree are saying.

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What do I care for a hell for oppressors? What good can hell do, since those children have already been tortured? And what becomes of harmony, if there is hell? I want to forgive. I want to embrace. I don’t want more suffering. And if the sufferings of children go to swell the sum of sufferings which was necessary to pay for truth, then I protest that the truth is not worth such a price.
-Ivan Karamazov

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Posted: 27 August 2006 02:30 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]  
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[quote author=“Humble Servant”]Neo-cons,  Neo-cons, Neo-cons!!!

Necons everywhere but not a reasonable conservative anywhere. How reasonable is that? Continue to wallow in your hate. It becomes you.

I fail to see how angry and non-sensical rantings like this are helpful.

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What do I care for a hell for oppressors? What good can hell do, since those children have already been tortured? And what becomes of harmony, if there is hell? I want to forgive. I want to embrace. I don’t want more suffering. And if the sufferings of children go to swell the sum of sufferings which was necessary to pay for truth, then I protest that the truth is not worth such a price.
-Ivan Karamazov

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Posted: 27 August 2006 06:04 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 42 ]  
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Foriegn news.

BBC.  ...PBS….Telemundo….

Have to learn another language to get good news these days, yes it is true smile

http://www.watchingamerica.com/index.shtml

here, try this for other countries biases = P

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Posted: 27 August 2006 07:05 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 43 ]  
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[quote author=“waltercat”][quote author=“Humble Servant”]eucaryote,

Let me see if I’ve got this strait.

ME
1. I watch Fox news because I want to hear people that I agree with.  (True)
2. I don’t watch the other MSM because I am mostly offended by their slanted commentary and bias.  (true)
3. I am stupid

YOU
1. You watch the MSM because you want to here people that you agree with.  (True)
2. You don’t watch Fox News because you are mostly offended by their bias and slanted commentary.  (True)
3. You are smart.

Ok, I think I’ve got it. More hate, it seeps out of your pores. I read it everywhere here, Bush the fascist, Bush the Nazi, Christians who are going to destroy the world.

I think, HS, that many of us here wish that you would try to get your news from MULTIPLE sources, (and NO, Matt Drudge is not really a different source than FNC) and, more importantly, do what you can to check the accuracy of your news sources.  That means doing a bit of research—reading a newspaper from time to time, using the internet, and, of course, you MUST even look at the views/arguments of those you disagree with.
If eucaryote is like me, he(she) does not like Fox News because it consistently gives false and/or misleading information (check out mediamatters.com for some examples).  And, if he is like me, he still watches Fox News (at least on occasion, and not just for laughs) because it is important to hear what those with whom you disagree are saying.

Check Waltercat, I think that we are on the same page. I actually get viritually no information from TV news, I find that it’s the shallowest stuff and and think that it’s probably the most effective way to plant misleading memes. I think that people are pretty simple creatures and more easily programmed than we realize. Think about how Fox and the right wing media machine is built. All the flashing graphics and sound effects. All the talk show hosts get talking points from Grover Norquist and Karl Rove. Everyone is in lockstep. The white house stages fake events etc.

Anyway, I read a lot and I listen to the radio a lot. All over.

BTW,  I never said that Servant was stupid. I actually don’t mean to push his(her) buttons. I really thought that I was just more or less reiterating his previous post regarding why he likes Fox.

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Posted: 27 August 2006 08:36 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 44 ]  
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Hi All,
Here is just one example (though a fairly important one, I think) of how the main stream media gets things wrong.

http://www.brendan-nyhan.com/blog/2006/08/correcting_the_.html

The example concerns the reporting (or actually lack thereof) at that alleged bastian of the left-wing media, The New York Times. Anybody who reads this, I would like to hear what you think (that includes you, HS, maybe especially you).

[quote author=“eucaryote”]I actually get viritually no information from TV news, I find that it’s the shallowest stuff and and think that it’s probably the most effective way to plant misleading memes.

Yes, I agree.  Television is a very bad way to get news.  And it doesn’t matter who the source is (FNC, MSNBC, CNN, CBS, ABC, etc.).  They all dumb down, fail to offer careful and detailed analysis, oversimplify, distort, and, perhaps most importantly, often seem more concerned about revenue than accuracy (see, e.g. “The Insider”).

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What do I care for a hell for oppressors? What good can hell do, since those children have already been tortured? And what becomes of harmony, if there is hell? I want to forgive. I want to embrace. I don’t want more suffering. And if the sufferings of children go to swell the sum of sufferings which was necessary to pay for truth, then I protest that the truth is not worth such a price.
-Ivan Karamazov

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Posted: 27 August 2006 09:31 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 45 ]  
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Waltercat, I agree, I criticize Fox News but I listen to their
Sunday Morning program to see what the other side is saying and even consider it. 

You have to listen to other positions (Not Limbaugh or Coulter or a couple of posters on this forum who shall remain nameless) and constantly check your own assumptions, dare I say prejudices..  Brit Hume basically recites the latest Republican talking points although you will note that even Bill Crystal has been calling for changing the course including firing Rumsfeld although he can’t admit the war in Iraq was a mistake. 

However, I don’t know why Tony Snow thought he had to quit Fox to be a spokeman for Bush. 

Did you happen to hear that Tony Snow came into Bush’s office to tell him that Cheney had acute angina.  Bush laughed and said he knew tha men did not have an angina

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