Response to Tom/Ray, Questions in the Key of Life
Posted: 19 March 2005 04:25 AM   [ Ignore ]  
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You asked for it, you got it. I can expound more if you would like, or you can see your local Priest, Pastor, deacon, or other professional.


1.Hell was created for Satan and his angels by God.

True, but people get all confused by this. The Lake of Fire/Hell is created for the Satan and his angels. That comes later. However, currently, there is a residing place for the wicked and the ones who forget God. This is called Sheol (or Hades), also called the place of the dead, the unseen world, or the place of the wicked. This is a temporary holding tank. The folks in there will also be joining Satan and his angels in the Hell later on.

2.People's souls will be tormented by Satan if they fail to meet God's standards for life in heaven.

False, Satan will be dealing with his own torment in the ole Lake of Fire, he will no longer have the ability to torment others mentally (wiles of the devil) or physically.

3.People's souls will be tormented, but not by Satan, if they fail to meet God's standards for life in heaven.

True. Interesting choice of words…meet God’s standards…. God has clearly communicated the way, the truth, the life, and how to get to him.

4.The length of time of the torment for failing to meet God's standards for life in heaven is eternal.

True, sort of. Remember in #1 I mentioned Sheol (or Hades), this is a temporary holding tank. The folks in there will be removed and go before the final Great White Throne judgment, where they find out every word, thought, and deed has been recorded. They are judged guilty by these things. So they then are “transferred” to join Satan and his angels in the Lake of Fire/Hell. (No wonder I’m praying so hard for you unbelievers!!!)

Note: "Lake" of Fire, thank God he didn't say "Ocean" of Fire. I would denote that by saying Lake that it means less folks will be there…I hope.

5.The length of time of the torment for failing to meet God's standards for life in heaven is limited.

False, the second death lasts forever, and missing heaven is going to be hell in itself (don’t you agree?)

Questions 6, 7, 8 .The torment of souls in Hell can be described a continuous horrible anguish, unpleasant, or worse than our bodies can experience.

Don’t know the extent of the torment (but doesn’t the word torment mean anything to you???).

9.The age of the individual at his/her death is considered before God damns a soul to Hell.

False, the question of belief on Christ as your savior is the only consideration, everything else is "works"

10.The age of the individual at his/her death is not considered before God damns a soul to Hell.

Same as #9.

Questions 11, 12, 13, and 14, concerning the children

Children are exempt (suffer the little children to come unto me..). Until such time as the child/person can make a cognizant yea/nay decision for Christ (when that timeline actually occurs is probably up to the individual). But innocent children are exempt (and precious, I might add).

15.There are only two places souls may be sent to after death; Heaven or Hell.

False, see #1 and #4. If I might expound. Remember, before Christ died on the cross, all people were sent to the place of the dead, where there were 3 areas: 1) paradise, 2) place of the wicked (Hades), and 3) the great gulf fixed between them. Paradise was a place of comfort, Hades is ...do I have to explain? When Christ was resurrected, he went to heaven (where he resides now). Paradise was emptied of the souls who resided there (YES, THANK GOD), and now when a person dies, “to be apart from the body is to be present with Christ.” And Christ is in heaven…(YEP YEP….HEEE HAWWW). So now folks go to heaven when they die. Unbelievers continue to go to place #2, the place of the wicked. (its allllll there in the bible, any scholar worth his salt knows these things).

16.Unrepentant homosexuality is enough of a sin to be sent to Hell.

False, homosexuality is a sin, just like any other sexual sin (lust in your heart, adultery, fornication, its all sin). Sin is what damned your soul, unbelief in Christ is what keeps you from heaven.

17. Unrepentant worship of Allah is enough of a sin to be sent to Hell.

I am not an exponent of other faiths, so I am not in a position to comment.

18. Unrepentant worship of any God other than The Champion's God is enough of a sin to be sent to Hell.

No response.

19.Not believing that Jesus is the Son of God is enough of a sin to be sent to Hell.

True, but not just Son of God, don’t forget, The Redeemer, The King of Kings and Lord of Lords, The Author and Perfector of our Faith, umm, what else….Lion of Judah, Bright Morning Star, Alpha and Omega….I know there is about 40 more these things….(one of which nobody knows the meaning, see Revelation)

20.Doubting that Jesus is the Son of God is enough of a sin to be sent to Hell.

False.  People are sometimes beset with doubts, such as when bad things happen. Sometimes it is hard to remember that “all things work together for the good of those who love the Lord.”

21.Having never heard of Jesus is enough of a sin to be sent to Hell.

False. I went back and found my description in an earlier post. Here it is (I just didn’t want to write it all over again…)

For those who have never heard the gospel, they are judged differently. God is evident to them just by the majesty of nature (he is evident to you intellectuals as well). They get judged by the law of God which He has placed into their hearts: “For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness, and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.” Romans 2:14-16.

Questions 22 and 23 .Not loving God/Jesus is enough of a sin to be sent to Hell.
False, see #19 (key word is "enough", don't think God has a variable assigned on this issue)

Questions 24 and 25 .Unrepentant smoking and drinking sends you to hell

False, see #19

Questions 26, 27, 28, .It is possible there are souls as young as the age of 2,8,14 suffering in Hell.

False, see Questions 11, 12, 13, and 14,


29.God's love is perfect.

True, absolutely

30.God's love is sometimes replaced with anger.

False, God never stops loving mankind, even though there are recorded instances of his anger, but since Christ was resurrected, he’s not angry. He is storing up his anger and wrath for later….read all about it.

31.I believe God's justice is perfect.

True, absolutely

32.God's justice makes sense to me.

True, absolutely

33.God's justice seems a little harsh at times.

False, I don't second quess him or Monday morning quarterback…

34.I can understand why some sinful souls need to be tormented forever.

True, if you’re talking about people like Nazis, Stalin, and the like

35.Knowing that souls are being tormented for billions of years for 60 years of earthly sin seems reasonable to me.

No response

36.A person may not have killed anyone or even ever seriously physically hurt anyone yet they may still deserve to go to Hell.

True, sin is what damns your soul, unbelief in Christ is what keeps you from heaven

37.A person may not have killed anyone or even ever seriously physically hurt anyone, love his/her parents, children and fellow humans, and yet may still deserve to go to Hell.

Same as #36

38.A person may not have killed anyone or even ever seriously physically hurt anyone, love his/her parents, children and fellow humans, try throughout his/her life to help others and yet may still deserve to go to Hell.

Same as #36

39.A soul in heaven will be unbothered by the torment of souls in hell even if that soul in hell was a former son, daughter, brother, sister, father or mother, wife, or husband.

Maybe, but “he will dry every tear in heaven..”, not sure how he will do that, but he says he will

40.Knowing your children are being tormented for billions of years in hell (if thats where they were sent by God) will not weaken your love of god or diminish the bliss of heaven if that is your reward.

False, once again, children are exempt

= = = = = = =

Let me know if you want further explanations or if there is anything I can do to help you further understand the concepts in the bible. I hope some of you will take this to heart and further investigate the claims of the Jesus Christ. I know you won't be disappointed if you do so.

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Posted: 20 March 2005 03:59 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]  
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Thank you Champ!!

You have not given true or false without elaboration as asked but I think you did a good job of answering non the less.  In fact I think I even prefer what you did to what was asked.  So now we can have a dialog on your ideas and see how you explain the inconsistencies in your reasoning, internally and with other passages in the bible and the conflict of the different Christian sects (like the Catholics) and their differing interpretations (you would think god would have thought about and planned for a fix to the “different interpretation” problem).  He is supposedly all knowing and perfect?  BTW that reminds me, you never answered

If god is all powerful and all knowing and there are no limitations on what he can do, can god make a rock too big for him to lift?


1.Hell was created for Satan and his angels by God.

True, but people get all confused by this. The Lake of Fire/Hell is created for the Satan and his angels. That comes later. However, currently, there is a residing place for the wicked and the ones who forget God. This is called Sheol (or Hades), also called the place of the dead, the unseen world, or the place of the wicked. This is a temporary holding tank. The folks in there will also be joining Satan and his angels in the Hell later on. 

_____________________________________________________________
Why the wait—if they are going anyway?  The Catholics told me that the place you describe “the holding tank”, they called it purgatory, was for those not pure enough to get into heaven but not bad enough to go to hell.  A couple of years ago I heard that the Pope, the catholic headman, said there really was no holding tank at all.  So which is it?  Who’s right, you or the Pope?  If the bible is so full of truth and the unerring word of your god why does it say different things to different christian sects?  I think at last count there were about 1400 different sects in the U.S. alone.  It seems you should be able to get together on something as important as hell.  Anyway let me know how you work it out with the Pope ok?
_____________________________________________________________

2.People’s souls will be tormented by Satan if they fail to meet God’s standards for life in heaven.

False, Satan will be dealing with his own torment in the ole Lake of Fire, he will no longer have the ability to torment others mentally (wiles of the devil) or physically.

_____________________________________________________________

So, god is the only tormentor of souls?  Sounds like a heck of a nice creator of the world.

_____________________________________________________________  

3.People’s souls will be tormented, but not by Satan, if they fail to meet God’s standards for life in heaven.

True. Interesting choice of words…meet God’s standards…. God has clearly communicated the way, the truth, the life, and how to get to him.

“Clearly communicated”  You call the bible clear communication?  See my comments to #1 above.
_____________________________________________________________

4.The length of time of the torment for failing to meet God’s standards for life in heaven is eternal.

True, sort of. Remember in #1 I mentioned Sheol (or Hades), this is a temporary holding tank. The folks in there will be removed and go before the final Great White Throne judgment, where they find out every word, thought, and deed has been recorded. They are judged guilty by these things. So they then are “transferred” to join Satan and his angels in the Lake of Fire/Hell. (No wonder I’m praying so hard for you unbelievers!!!)

Note “Lake” of Fire, thank God he didn’t say “Ocean” of Fire. I would denote that by saying Lake that it means less folks will be there…I hope.
____________________________________________________________
See my comments #1 above.  “Lake… means less folks will be there”?  Couldn’t god fit all the souls in hell into a puddle if he wanted to?
____________________________________________________________

5.The length of time of the torment for failing to meet God’s standards for life in heaven is limited.

False, the second death lasts forever, and missing heaven is going to be hell in itself (don’t you agree?)
Second death?  No I don’t because I don’t believe in your god or any others and I don’t believe in heaven.  I don’t think it is necessary or productive to believe in anything.  I challenge you, give me one thing in the “natural world” that requires belief to deal with it.  Remember you claim your god created the natural world.


Questions 6, 7, 8 .The torment of souls in Hell can be described a continuous horrible anguish, unpleasant, or worse than our bodies can experience.

Don’t know the extent of the torment (but doesn’t the word torment mean anything to you???).

9.The age of the individual at his/her death is considered before God damns a soul to Hell.

False, the question of belief on Christ as your savior is the only consideration, everything else is “works”

10.The age of the individual at his/her death is not considered before God damns a soul to Hell.

Same as #9.
____________________________________________________________
Both #9 and #10 are false?  Isn’t that a contradiction?  Maybe you meant something else.
____________________________________________________________

Questions 11, 12, 13, and 14, concerning the children

Children are exempt (suffer the little children to come unto me..). Until such time as the child/person can make a cognizant yea/nay decision for Christ (when that timeline actually occurs is probably up to the individual). But innocent children are exempt (and precious, I might add).

The Catholics told me that babies had to be baptized to remove original sin or they could not get into heaven.  In the old days they went to purgatory.  I haven’t kept up so I don’t know where they go today.  What about innocent adults?  What about original sin?  Did Jesus repeal it?  If so why did he himself get baptized?  The Catholics said he had to because he was god-man, God was his unnatural father (he fathered himself?) and Mary was his natural mother and he got the sin from her.


15.There are only two places souls may be sent to after death; Heaven or Hell.

False, see #1 and #4. If I might expound. Remember, before Christ died on the cross, all people were sent to the place of the dead, where there were 3 areas 1) paradise, 2) place of the wicked (Hades), and 3) the great gulf fixed between them. Paradise was a place of comfort, Hades is ...do I have to explain? When Christ was resurrected, he went to heaven (where he resides now). Paradise was emptied of the souls who resided there (YES, THANK GOD), and now when a person dies, “to be apart from the body is to be present with Christ.” And Christ is in heaven…(YEP YEP….HEEE HAWWW). So now folks go to heaven when they die. Unbelievers continue to go to place #2, the place of the wicked. (its allllll there in the bible, any scholar worth his salt knows these things).

16.Unrepentant homosexuality is enough of a sin to be sent to Hell.

False, homosexuality is a sin, just like any other sexual sin (lust in your heart, adultery, fornication, its all sin). Sin is what damned your soul, unbelief in Christ is what keeps you from heaven.
___________________________________________________________
I don’t get it.  If homosexuality is a sin and sin damns your soul how could your answer be False to this question?
_____________________________________________________________

17. Unrepentant worship of Allah is enough of a sin to be sent to Hell.

I am not an exponent of other faiths, so I am not in a position to comment.
__________________________________________________________
The question doesn’t ask what other faiths expound it asks what YOUR faith expounds.
__________________________________________________________

18. Unrepentant worship of any God other than The Champion’s God is enough of a sin to be sent to Hell.

No response.
__________________________________________
Why not?
__________________________________________

19.Not believing that Jesus is the Son of God is enough of a sin to be sent to Hell.

True, but not just Son of God, don’t forget, The Redeemer, The King of Kings and Lord of Lords, The Author and Perfector of our Faith, umm, what else….Lion of Judah, Bright Morning Star, Alpha and Omega….I know there is about 40 more these things….(one of which nobody knows the meaning, see Revelation)

20.Doubting that Jesus is the Son of God is enough of a sin to be sent to Hell.

False. People are sometimes beset with doubts, such as when bad things happen. Sometimes it is hard to remember that “all things work together for the good of those who love the Lord.”
___________________________________________________________
So if you have doubts you better hedge your bets and act as if you believe?  That’s what my brother-in law says.  I’ll ask you like I asked him.  Can’t god tell your just acting?  Won’t this anger him?  Isn’t that bearing false witness?
__________________________________________________________

21.Having never heard of Jesus is enough of a sin to be sent to Hell.

False. I went back and found my description in an earlier post. Here it is (I just didn’t want to write it all over again…)

For those who have never heard the gospel, they are judged differently. God is evident to them just by the majesty of nature (he is evident to you intellectuals as well). They get judged by the law of God which He has placed into their hearts “For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness, and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.” Romans 214-16.

Questions 22 and 23 .Not loving God/Jesus is enough of a sin to be sent to Hell.
False, see #19 (key word is “enough”, don’t think God has a variable assigned on this issue)
___________________________________________________________
I think you misread the question.  It was not asking about loving god/Jesus enough it was asking if not loving go/Jesus was enough to keep you out of heaven.  The Catholics say True.
__________________________________________________________

Questions 24 and 25 .Unrepentant smoking and drinking sends you to hell

False, see #19

Questions 26, 27, 28, .It is possible there are souls as young as the age of 2,8,14 suffering in Hell.

False, see Questions 11, 12, 13, and 14,


29.God’s love is perfect.

True, absolutely

30.God’s love is sometimes replaced with anger.

False, God never stops loving mankind, even though there are recorded instances of his anger, but since Christ was resurrected, he’s not angry. He is storing up his anger and wrath for later….read all about it.
____________________________________________________________
That is not what I heard Jerry Falwell say nor is it what the Catholics told me.  Where can I read about how he is storing up his anger?  Wasn’t god angry when he threw Adam and Eve out of the garden?  Wasn’t he angry when Moses had his doubts and therefore could not enter the Promised Land?  Aren’t there many instances in the bible where it says god was angry?  How about the flood?  How about Sodom and Gomorrah?  He still gets angry but now he just holds it in?  But technically doesn’t he still get angry?
____________________________________________________________

31.I believe God’s justice is perfect.

True, absolutely

32.God’s justice makes sense to me.

True, absolutely

33.God’s justice seems a little harsh at times.

False, I don’t second quess him or Monday morning quarterback…

34.I can understand why some sinful souls need to be tormented forever.

True, if you’re talking about people like Nazis, Stalin, and the like

35.Knowing that souls are being tormented for billions of years for 60 years of earthly sin seems reasonable to me.

No response
___________________________________________
Why no response?
______________________________________________

36.A person may not have killed anyone or even ever seriously physically hurt anyone yet they may still deserve to go to Hell.

True, sin is what damns your soul, unbelief in Christ is what keeps you from heaven

37.A person may not have killed anyone or even ever seriously physically hurt anyone, love his/her parents, children and fellow humans, and yet may still deserve to go to Hell.

Same as #36

38.A person may not have killed anyone or even ever seriously physically hurt anyone, love his/her parents, children and fellow humans, try throughout his/her life to help others and yet may still deserve to go to Hell.

Same as #36

39.A soul in heaven will be unbothered by the torment of souls in hell even if that soul in hell was a former son, daughter, brother, sister, father or mother, wife, or husband.

Maybe, but “he will dry every tear in heaven..”, not sure how he will do that, but he says he will

40.Knowing your children are being tormented for billions of years in hell (if thats where they were sent by God) will not weaken your love of god or diminish the bliss of heaven if that is your reward.
________________________________________________________
False, once again, children are exempt
What about those that were 80 when they died?  Again I think you misread the question.
__________________________________________________________

= = = = = = =

Let me know if you want further explanations or if there is anything I can do to help you further understand the concepts in the bible. I hope some of you will take this to heart and further investigate the claims of the Jesus Christ. I know you won’t be disappointed if you do so.

_______________________________________________
See my specific responses above!!
_______________________________________________

 

Ray

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Posted: 20 March 2005 04:32 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]  
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Those replies given by TChamp were a real comedy of errors and inconsistencies.  Yet it’s quite shocking to imagine how his mind actually works (if you want to call that working?)!  The two qeustions #18 and #35 to which he gave no response we can only surmise that he would have said “true” but realized that it would portray him as completely unjust and immoral - so he kept silent.

I think that his many instances of misunderstanding the question also show us a lot about his mindset.  He is so fixated on keeping his lying strategy in order than he often misreads what seems obvious and clear to others.  How does he read the bible - same way? (Also, he keeps refering to my nickname as “calzen” in his replies to me - I wonder why?)

Bob

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Posted: 05 April 2005 11:34 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]  
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[quote author=“TheChampion”]
Let me know if you want further explanations or if there is anything I can do to help you further understand the concepts in the bible. I hope some of you will take this to heart and further investigate the claims of the Jesus Christ. I know you won’t be disappointed if you do so.

I know that this is probably a lot to ask, and I am aware that I am not really a party to this particular conversation, but I would like to see the chapter and verse citations from the bible that support each of your responses.

To be honest, I don’t really expect you to do this, not that I don’t believe that you could, but only because it seems like it would probably be a lot of work to look up and record all of those citations and I’m just asking out of curiousity.

- Bulldog

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Posted: 05 April 2005 12:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]  
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Bulldog, you want each verse, sheez, I’d love to do that. I wouldn’t just flippantly throw out concepts without the scripture to back it up! That would be heresy. That is the great thing about Christianity. We’re proud to expound upon it.

(hmmm, maybe if you see the verses, you might be persuaded to become a Christain…..maybe we’re getting somehere here,...hu hu hu….)

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Posted: 05 April 2005 12:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]  
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[quote author=“TheChampion”]Bulldog, you want each verse, sheez, I’d love to do that. I wouldn’t just flippantly throw out concepts without the scripture to back it up! That would be heresy. That is the great thing about Christianity. We’re proud to expound upon it.

(hmmm, maybe if you see the verses, you might be persuaded to become a Christain…..maybe we’re getting somehere here,...hu hu hu….)

Funny.  Its because I saw the verses that I decided to become a non believer.

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Posted: 05 April 2005 12:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]  
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[quote author=“TheChampion”]
Bulldog, you want each verse, sheez, I’d love to do that.

Please don’t go to too much trouble. As I stipulated, I understand that it would be a lot of work for little reward, as I’m merely interested in satisfying my own curiosity.

[quote author=“TheChampion”]
I wouldn’t just flippantly throw out concepts without the scripture to back it up!

That thought never entered my mind. I assume that you have a thorough knowledge of the bible.

[quote author=“TheChampion”]
(hmmm, maybe if you see the verses, you might be persuaded to become a Christian…..maybe we’re getting somehere here,...hu hu hu….)

I was raised catholic. I went exclusively to private catholic schools through high school. So you should trust me when I tell you I have a pretty good background on what the bible says.

Getting your hopes up about bringing me back into the fold will only lead to disappointment.

- Bulldog

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Posted: 05 April 2005 12:27 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]  
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Guest, which verses in particular drove you away?

Bulldog, never under estimate the power of conviction, my lost brother. wink

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Posted: 27 May 2005 08:06 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]  
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Cynthia and others, hope this helps you learn the Christian point of view…....

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Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light. Matt 11:28-29

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