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PASTOR TED HAGGARD—GAY?
Posted: 03 November 2006 01:37 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]  
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frank.  After listening to one evangelical after the other threating us all with hell and damnation, it gets to be a sick presentation of what should be a Christian faith.  Apparently there is little kindness or forgiveness found in any Christian heart today.  Even the White House who manipulated the religious right to get elected has now shown is total disrespect for the religious right.  Strangely these fools are too ignorant to understand they have been used.

How many small children have been molested by Christians even when the parents must have had some kind of instinct that the kids should not have been alone with any cleric or teacher.  How many people did we see die when Katrina struck and too many people did not try to save themselves but waiting for God.  How many of these Catholic residents of New Orleans simply looted the stores instead of trying to find high ground for the thousands of people who waited for God.

It is sad to see any man fall from grace when he simply had a casual affair with another man.  Maybe had he not made milliions of dollars off his membership by screaming in hysterics about the abomination of a homosexual action.

He did this constantly even after having a 3 year affair that possibly used drugs.  Isn’t that a second sin broken too?  It is time we all took a second look at the morals of those men and women who make millions of dollars trying to direct the actions of others. 

We all remember the tears coming from Jim Bakker when he was caught in a position with a prostitute.  We have seen many evangelicals collecting money from their parishioners and throwing it away on woman, drugs and gambling.  They are a fraud!  Wasn’t it Swaggart who was caught with a $20 whore?  When will the American people learn to not trust these charlatans?  These are the people who want to build boot camps for the children!  It is dangerous, illegal and unAmerican. 

I’ve said for years that this Christian movement has caused a mental illness to permeate all over America.  I have called it a short cut for people to be able to blame God’s will for their errors and misjudgments.

I stopped it in my home even when the kids attended Christian schools and nobody ever used an excuse for their bad judgment or bad actions.  I know most people do not read much any more but I would love to see “Elmer Gantry” be on the reading lists of all schools.  Books like this will add a touch of skepticism in the brains of all the readers. 

Haggard had 30 million followers.  He also had a weekly conference phone call in the white house.  His influence must be exposed and stopped.

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Posted: 03 November 2006 01:55 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]  
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I admit that there is hypocrisy. I just think that the posts go beyond that. There seems to be pleasure that the man is gay and that there is something less than human and ridiculous in his homosexuality. This is evident in the gay sex puns and the movie poster. Maybe I am over sensitive product of this politically correct world. I just think there is more to your criticism than this mans hypocritical actions. There is a mocking of this lifestyle in your comments. I think this is similar to the Foley situation. I could be wrong.

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Posted: 03 November 2006 02:07 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]  
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We shouldn’t be surprised by this hypocrisy, all this public prayer and large scale religion (Haggard, Dobson, and the rest) is contrary to Jesus’ instructions on prayer in Matthew 6: 5&6 (just before the Lord’s Prayer)as follows:

And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be like the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, htat they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you . They have their reward.
But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

I’m sure they are contrary passages, there are conflicting passages on almost all intructions in the Bible., but hypocrisy is part and parcel of organized religion.

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Posted: 03 November 2006 02:35 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]  
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frank.  You either have the courage of your convictions or you don’t!  It is as simple as that.  To see a man dictate with emotions that Haggard used on his followers is one thing.  To believe is another.  I have no problem if he is gay, straight or bisexual.  I’m from California where these conditions simply exist out of our realm of interest.  I have a gay grandson.  So what?

Haggard is just an example of preaching one point of view and living another.  I have been to revival meetings and seen the hell and horror coming out of the mouths of these Evangelicals.  There is no doubt in my mind that they are deranged.  They are filled with such revulsion and hatred for others that it verges on insanity.

We have seen a level of corruption in the Conservative Republicans in the last 6 years and we will see them reelected because people don’t give a damn whether we are told the truth or a pack of dirty lies.  Haggard is simply a teacher to direct the voters into voting for Christians as they feel Christians will vote for Jesus Christ no matter what they do in their private lives.

Our morals are being torn down by the Christians and it is time this was pointed out to the voters.  One of these days a writer will list all the legislative bills that were bought and paid for by Lobbyists who actually got laws changed by offering money to the members of Congress.  Nobody cares any more.  The White House wants a Christian Nation and he will not stop until Christian legislation is part of the Constitution.

This may seem fine to you but it is the work of an evil source of power and Haggard is part of that power.

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Posted: 03 November 2006 03:45 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]  
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I think this is similar to the Foley situation. I could be wrong.

I think you are, a bit wrong, Frank.  The Foley situation involved sexual harrasment, in my opinion, due to the position of the preditor.  Haggard participated in a victimless crime.

Both are hypocrits.  I couldn’t care less if Haggard is gay, straight or bi, it’s just unfortunate for he and his family that he lied about it.

I used to be bi by the way, when I was younger, if I wanted anything I had to “bi” it.

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Posted: 03 November 2006 04:08 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]  
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There is no glee. There is no schadenfreude in Haggard’s fall from grace.

What this is, what this SHOULD BE, is a wake-up call to the flock that anti-gay sentiment and anti-gay legislation creates a world where men like Haggard are seen as righteous for attacking “the evils of homosexuality”—denying to openly gay men and women who pay their taxes, are good citizens, and wish to be afforded the same benefits afforded to same-sex couples—while he is in fact participating secretly in the same behaviors for which he condemns others and urges his flock to condemn.

Haggard’s downfall will and has already had an effect on the sheep of his flock, to question the shepherd, to question their leaders, to start to wonder just how far they’ve been duped and swindled.

Frankr compared this to Foley and the two are markedly similar. The similarity is that both were participating in homosexual activity privately while at the same time publicly advocating against open homosexuals and their rights. That is hypocritical and unconscionable.

By spreading the anti-gay hatred, cloaking it in self-serving interpretations of scripture, Haggard makes more mini-Haggards; how many untold married-with-children followers are secretly on the downlow, ashamed of their desire because Haggard and his ilk have instilled it into their minds with the fear of heavenly retribution as punishment?

This is a man who “consulted” with President Bush or his advisers on a weekly basis, according to news reports. He is a Republican operative, who cares more about keeping the GOP in office than in human rights.

The hypocrisy is that Haggard has had his beefcake and has eaten it, too.

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Posted: 03 November 2006 04:30 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]  
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I will speak for myself here in saying that “yes, I gloat.”  This gloat is a complex issue because it touches on so many aspects of the Haggard-Jones incident.

The self-righteous evangelical person being caught doing exactly what he bashes others in his sermons for doing is the most blatant “sin” commited here, namely his hypcrisy. But this mendacity most deeply affects his wife and family, while it shakes the “faith” of his congregation and the evangelical community world-wide in different ways.  (I mean their faith in Haggard’s character more than in their religious faith.)

But what I find wholly ironic is that Haggard’s homosexual activity is viewed by his peers and his sheeple as a participation in an act that most religious people find vile, sinful, and the “work of the devil.”  What is ironic is that secular and non-theistic persons find nothing abhorrent or otherwise immoral about Haggard and Jones engaging in homosexual sex (of course the fact the he is married to a woman and the father of 5 children is the issue of concern), but those people to whom Haggard has dedicated his dishonest life are the ones who see his promiscuity as exceedingly evil and perhaps unforgivable.  So that people outside the church look at this incident as a moral failure because Haggard lied to and betrayed all those with whom he is “supposedly” in fellowship.  But to the sheeple who gawk at his pronouncements and elevate him to a near divine status - to them it is so much greater a crime that has been perpetrated - hypocrisy? sure, but homosexual sex? yikes!  (Personally I would wonder which one is the greater of the Haggard sins for those who venerate him?).

That is mainly from where my gloating is welling up.  The smug satisfaction I feel is that the classification of homosexuality as sinful and against god in religious doctrine and belief is thrown so vividly back into the faces of the moralists with their absolutist agenda. Here one of the most self-righteous and most gay-hating of christian preachers turns out to be a hypocrite and a homosexual - glory halleluiah!

Bob

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Posted: 03 November 2006 04:34 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]  
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[quote author=“MenuEatersEatTheMenu”]There is no glee. There is no schadenfreude in Haggard’s fall from grace.

What this is, what this SHOULD BE, is a wake-up call to the flock that anti-gay sentiment and anti-gay legislation creates a world where men like Haggard are seen as righteous for attacking “the evils of homosexuality”—denying to openly gay men and women who pay their taxes, are good citizens, and wish to be afforded the same benefits afforded to same-sex couples—while he is in fact participating secretly in the same behaviors for which he condemns others and urges his flock to condemn.

It scares me that we live in a world where we actually have to offer defense for genetic variation.  Why do argue with people about this issue?  How incredibly ignorant are the people who wish to persecute homosexuals?  I can barely fathom the leve of stupidity these people experience on a day to day basis…they are almost sub-human to me.  No thinking, reasoning being, can possibly accept that it is okay to persecute homosexuals.  What is homosexuality anyway?  A declaration of who you are intimate with?  WHY DOES THIS MATTER????  I am so angry about this issue, it makes me so sick to hear that people actually want to make homosexuality out to be wrong…on what scale of right/wrong?  What moral guideposts are you following when something NATURAL occurs?  I know I am “preaching” to the “choir,” but I need to vent this mt.vesuvius of frustration built up inside of me sometimes.

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Posted: 03 November 2006 04:36 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]  
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Sorry, left my name off the above post, had some spelling mistakes as well…see what happens when you let frustration control your posts…!

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Posted: 03 November 2006 04:36 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]  
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[quote author=“CanZen”]The smug satisfaction I feel is that the classification of homosexuality as sinful and against god in religious doctrine and belief is thrown so vividly back into the faces of the moralists with their absolutist agenda. Here one of the most self-righteous and most gay-hating of christian preachers turns out to be a hypocrite and a homosexual - glory halleluiah!

That, too.

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Posted: 03 November 2006 05:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]  
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I second Sandy’s recommendation of Sinclair Lewis’s Elmer Gantry (New York, 1927). Early in Elmer’s life, he betrays an old atheist’s confidences in scenes that are among the best in American literature (in my amateur opinion). The book also gives some historical perspective on the present clash between religion and science.

http://www.enotes.com/elmer-gantry/

Besides being an effective satire targeted against religious hypocrisy, Elmer Gantry provides insight into the clash of cultural forces in America in the 1920s. During this period, traditional religious believers were deeply disturbed by the encroachments made on faith by science and secularism.

Doesn’t that sound familiar?
_ _ _ _ _ _

Mia said something about Pastor Ted’s “true sexual orientation”. Suppose for a moment that you lived in a society where everyone enjoyed either vanilla ice cream or chocolate ice cream but not both, or at least societal conventions required everyone to pretend to comply with that custom. What would happen to someone who candidly admitted to liking both chocolate and vanilla ice cream and was daring enough even to eat Neopolitan some times? (mmmmmmmm, spumoni, mmmmmmmmmmm) A lot of current discussion of “gay” and straight uses the unsupported premise that everyone is exclusively one or the other. What sense does it make to call Pastor Ted gay when he has a wife and five children? What sense would it make to call Pastor Ted straight if he had sexual encounters with another man, scenes he enjoyed enough to repeat and to pay for? The correct description seems to be bisexual.

Among the hypocrisies that people might abandon is the pretense that they never feel the slightest attraction to someone of the sex other than their usual preferred sex. I read a study of human sexuality that listed the favorite sexual fantasies for the four most typical sexes: straight men, straight women, gay men, and gay women. (I would quote the title of the book if only I remembered it. It was probably one of the Masters and Johnson books.) For each of the four groups, sex with someone not of the usually preferred sex made the top five favorites. The authors had only small samples of these groups but assured the readers that all study participants were active sexually according to their announced preferences. I don’t know how representative of people in general that study was, so its results are only suggestive rather than conclusive.

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Posted: 03 November 2006 05:29 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 42 ]  
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I think the charges of homophobia here are a bit much.

Just having fun at the expense of a very, very BAD human being.

Ted Haggard’s actions are so despicable, so mind-numbingly awful, it is almost hard to believe a human could stoop this low.

To convince yourself of this, watch the Root of All Evil? clip in which Richard Dawkins interviews Haggard on the campus of the New Life Church.  Dawkins politely challenges Haggard—only to have Haggard label Dawkins as arrogant and ultimately kick him off the grounds of the church. 

On some level I do care about this guy & I don’t want him to be physically harmed as a result of this (ie-suicide).  However, I think that what he has done is so egregious, so horrible, that he should receive a hail-storm of criticism.

And back to the homophobia issue.  You know what pal—even assuming I took a small swipe at a gay person on this board—AT LEAST I’M SUPPORTING GAY PEOPLE IN THE POLITICAL ARENA!!  AT LEAST I BELIEVE IN GAY MARRIAGE AND EQUAL RIGHTS FOR GAYS.  This is a segment of the population that I respect and fully support through my voting and actions within the community.  That is what matters most.

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Posted: 03 November 2006 05:33 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 43 ]  
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I wrote the previous post without logging in. Sorry.

Let me add a word or two to clarify one of my sentences:

For each of the four groups, sex with someone not of the usually preferred sex made the top five favorite fantasies. So the gay guys, for example, were having fantasies about making it with women while the straight guys were having fantasies about sex with other men.

Ted Shepherd

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Posted: 03 November 2006 05:50 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 44 ]  
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Frankr,

There seems to be pleasure that the man is gay and that there is something less than human and ridiculous in his homosexuality. This is evident in the gay sex puns and the movie poster. Maybe I am over sensitive product of this politically correct world. I just think there is more to your criticism than this mans hypocritical actions.

Buddy, you are classic. I don’t think I’ve ever read anything in these forums that is anti-gay except from believers. A couple of the brighter posters here are gay. The anti-gay agenda of the religious right is one of the main reasons many of us are so activated. It pains me to see the way several of my gay friends feel they can’t be themselves in public. And as a physician I heard a lot of stories from gay patients. Many, terribly sad stories of family rejection. And you want to find something wrong in the way we are reacting to this? You who thinks being gay is a sin. Give us a break. Haggard is a condescending ass. Now it turns out he’s probably a gay condescending ass….same thing, just added hypocrisy.

What is ridiculous in all this is that millions of people in this day and age still hang on to that book you’re so proud of that vilifies people for something that has nothing to do with ethics. A book that has condemned people for just being who they are. Teachings that until a few years ago allowed them to be called sinners… and criminals. When will you see that it’s all a crock? When will you see that the idea a creator of the universe cares who you love is….stupid.

Rod

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Posted: 03 November 2006 07:55 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 45 ]  
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[quote author=“wavelength32”]I think the charges of homophobia here are a bit much.


And back to the homophobia issue.  You know what pal—even assuming I took a small swipe at a gay person on this board—AT LEAST I’M SUPPORTING GAY PEOPLE IN THE POLITICAL ARENA!!  AT LEAST I BELIEVE IN GAY MARRIAGE AND EQUAL RIGHTS FOR GAYS.  This is a segment of the population that I respect and fully support through my voting and actions within the community.  That is what matters most.

The All Caps really drives home your point.

I think this is what they call a reductio ad absurdum

You know what pal—even assuming I took a small swipe at a African American person on this board—AT LEAST I’M SUPPORTING African American PEOPLE IN THE POLITICAL ARENA!!  AT LEAST I BELIEVE IN EQUAL RIGHTS FOR African American .  This is a segment of the population that I respect and fully support through my voting and actions within the community.  That is what matters most.

I don’t think you or the world would be as forgiving if you said, yes I make racial slurs but you know what, I support civil rights and thats what matters most.

Yes I make jokes about gays and anal sex but I do so only kiddingly I really think they should have marriage rights.

Unfortunately the political correct sword is two sided.

Rod thanks for recognizing my classicness. I think it often goes unnoticed.

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