Champ isn't that rare!
Posted: 01 April 2005 02:42 PM   [ Ignore ]  
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Here is the scary part.  I've run into many people who express similar thoughts to those Champ has shared with us on this forum.  How many like Champ are out there?  Most of the people I've met, like Champ, are actually quite innocent in their beliefs.  They honestly don't know that they don't know much about science or reality.  They are truly like sheep.  And, as with Champ, I think many of them are happy about it.  What does this say about people in general?

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Posted: 01 April 2005 07:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]  
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There are intellectuals like yourself out there who’ve tried to use science to hide behind their hate of the living God. How else do you explain the fact that you do not believe? The evidence is all around you.

Yes, the odd thing is not that there are soooooooo many of us believers, but that there are actually so many educated non-believers. I guess they are smart by man’s logic, but not by God’s logic. Oh well, so the battle continues.

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Posted: 01 April 2005 08:50 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]  
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Its not what it says about them that is the worry, it is what it says about the future of America.

How do we maintain leading edge in technology, in finance, in development with this kind of educational system?

I dont blame champ, more and more I think the dumbing down of America is a side effect of a capistalist system that requires mindless consumpition.

The fact our politicians are products, our news is a product, the whole ethos of “we buy what we want to hear”.

This leads to me to believe that the rest of the world will begin to advance faster and America will lose alot of ground.  As we do, since we have a huge population that believes in its privelege and “God’s favored nation” status we become actually more dangerous, with our weapons.

I picture us in a few decades as the crazy uncle in the closet in with the shotgun everyone tip toes around at Thanksgiving.

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Posted: 02 April 2005 12:55 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]  
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There are intellectuals like yourself out there who’ve tried to use science to hide behind their hate of the living God. How else do you explain the fact that you do not believe? The evidence is all around you.

My goodness!  Champ, do you think I would waste a minute of my day “hating the living god?”  I dont think about the living god any differently than the easter bunny or santa.  I don’t hold resentments against anything or anyone, that’s the christians job.

Do not have the arrogance to equate your reactions to mine, I am not a mirror for you, in any way, shape, or form. 

Evidence?  You ignore it, and it is all around you!  There is no evidence whatsoever for any creator-god, and you know it.  As I said once before, you showed your ass when you ran here in the beginning after reading 17 pages of Sam’s book.  That, my friend, is the definition of contempt prior to investigation, and you are guilty as hell.  You have not taken the trouble to even investigate the natural world, and that is what is so damn dangerous about your faith.  It is your blasted arrogance!

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Posted: 02 April 2005 03:07 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]  
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[quote author=“TheChampion”]There are intellectuals like yourself out there who’ve tried to use science to hide behind their hate of the living God. How else do you explain the fact that you do not believe?

How very sad that anyone would have such a narrow concept of humanity.  To equate a lack of belief in anything with a hatred of it????  Does a man’s words not reflect his thoughts? 

I just don’t understand this Christianity thing.  Faithful followers continue to talk about hatred, sin, wickedness, pain and suffering.  Anyone who does not agree (such as secular persons), are their enemy???  They are always on the cusp of doing battle with that enemy???  What an archaic and cold and cruel world they must live in - no wonder they yearn for the idea of a heaven to escape to.

As a non-theist, I live in a world of beauty, love, hope, and respect for my fellow beings, both human and animal.  I bask in the majesty and greatness of the cosmos and revel in the order of nature on this miniscule fragment known as Earth.  I marvel at the advances mankind has made in science from sub atomic levels to the vast array of the universe. 

Mankind’s quest for knowledge is one of our greatest attributes, and one of our most magnaminous.  Whether a person could be considered an intellectual or intellectually challenged, knowledge is available for all who seek it.  We share ideas, both scientific and philosophical, with all who have an interest in knowledge and understanding.  As a civilization, we endeavor to learn from our mistakes, but look ever forward and upward.

I am fascinated by the mythology and folklore mankind has developed over millenia.  It is rich and diverse, and has helped us form a consciousness as individuals and societies.  It is also often very complex and radical and irrevelent.  It seems to be a major weakness of humans to cling to dogma and ancient systems, rather than trust the magnificence of their own evolved observing, thinking, and reasoning abilities. 

Such is the way of life.  I personally opt for a beautiful, fulfilling, and loving cosmic experience rather than the fearful and narrow vision of hatred and intolerance stemming from religious fervor.

I also agree with Iisbliss… very insightful thoughts.  Especially disturbing is the armed uncle in the closet.

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Posted: 02 April 2005 08:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]  
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Champion, I have good new and bad news for you…........

The GOOD NEWS:  I am here and The Rapture is near!

The BAD NEWS:  You and your evil, hate-filled, science-phobic fundamentalist Christian kind will be left behind for me to deal with as I see fit ......... and with great relish!

I have prepared a special place in hell for you and your ignorant kind. 

Throughout eternity, as the flames are singing your most private and painful parts, you will be forced to attend continuous classes in Science and Evolution taught by Charles Darwin himself with guest lectrues by Carl Sagan, Bertrand Russell, and Richard Feynman.

Enjoy your personal eternal reward for living a life of deliberate scientifc ignorance and denial of the facts that your so called God made available for you to understand and embrace.

Your true and eternal friend…......Satan (Hee, Hee, Hee, Hee,..........)

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Posted: 02 April 2005 11:46 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]  
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You say you are the anti christ, but you signed off as Satan. Which is it?

You also say that you have preserved a place for us fundamentalists in hell, and you have perscribed the exact punishment. However, I do believe that you have errored in your post. You see, it is our understanding that hell was actually created for you and your angels, that is if you are Satan. But, the anti christ will find himself there in due time as well.

And if God allows us to stay behind, we’ll continue to serve him, praise him, sing to him, love him, with all our heart, soul, and mind. Amen!

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Posted: 06 April 2005 01:21 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]  
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[quote author=“TheChampion”]There are intellectuals like yourself out there who’ve tried to use science to hide behind their hate of the living God. How else do you explain the fact that you do not believe? The evidence is all around you.

Consider this:
~~~~
There are christians like yourself out there who try to use the bible to hide their hatred of the living Zeus. How else do you explain the fact that you do not believe? The evidence is all around you.

Do you not SEE his furious lightning raining down from the heavens?
So why do you hate Zeus with your unbelief?
~~~~

Can you see that it is absurd to argue that someone hates X if they don’t believe in X? You don’t hate the easter bunny or santa claus, do you?

- Bulldog

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Posted: 07 April 2005 08:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]  
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About this evidence thing….

Evidence means little on its own.  Its the conclusions drawn based on evidence that hold meaning in discussion.  When the conclusions are laid down nearly two millenia before any evidence is even remotely considered to be taken into account.  I think that this invalidates those conclusions’ claim to that evidence.

One of the main focuses of sam’s book points out that faith isn’t so much a leap, or a trancendent realization, but a mechanism for interpreting evidence in the world at large. I happen to think this is a very valid claim.  Whether or not you have faith, the evidence is still all around you.  Its just, if you have faith, you have a filter that (like the current presidential administration) makes bad things seems like random arbitrary acts which have no real perpetrator, but rather are cogs in the spinning wheels of gods plan. 

Its this same filter that lets people see COMPLETELY ignore the inconsistencies and incompatibilities in their own belief structure.  And its this filter that lets people, on a nearly daily basis, trivialize their divine creator by asking him to help their sports team win, or to be with them as they make a big sales pitch.

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Posted: 28 April 2005 04:35 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]  
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when young school children (and even adults) are overwhelmed by science and math, they turn to the sports and performance fields to get away from having to learn and use science and math - one type of performer is a preacher - preachers convince their audience with some “logical” connection between everyday living and the bible

unfortunately, when the “logic” is carefully examined, preachers and preacher-supporters like “champ”, lack true logic - for example, when a preacher presents a faulty premise that is accepted by the audience, it doesn’t matter what the conclusion is, since simply mathematical logic states that an argument is always true when a faulty premise is acccepted

Fran Lorin

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Posted: 28 April 2005 05:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]  
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Though I get your point that we need to be aware of the fact that a talented performer (preacher) can often succeed at presenting nonsense as logic, I would disagree with your opening statement that those who are more inclined to the Arts are so by defect. 

Fran wrote:

when young school children (and even adults) are overwhelmed by science and math, they turn to the sports and performance fields to get away from having to learn and use science and math

I understand that we are all born genetically predisposed to excel in certain areas.  I look at my kids where my son and one daughter are more scientifically and academically inclined, they are both keen to learn everything about anything, while my middle child, is more artistically inclined.  All three take music lessons and enjoy the instrument of their choice, but only my middle child is showing a ‘feel’ for the music.  She’s attracted to any form of art - music, painting, sculpting, drawing.  She is also an A student in math.  I don’t see that her inclination for the Arts comes from being overwhelmed by math and the sciences.

If I look to my own group of college buddies, we were all good students and applied to CEGEP (a kind of middle school between highschool and university found only in Quebec equivalent to grades 12 and 13 to prepare for university) in Health or Pure & Applied Sciences.  We were following your idea that the good students, the smart ones, go for the sciences.  Of my group of eight friends, only two ended up working in the sciences, both in computer engineering.  The rest ended up working in education, social services, management, hospitality and tourism, and small business.  Those of us who switched direction during our course of study weren’t ‘overwhelmed’ by the sciences.  We didn’t flunk out of the sciences, we just lost interest in devoting our time and energy to their study.  We decided we’d rather deal more with people than ideas. 

I don’t regret my years studying physics (I was originally planning to be an electrical engineer) as I feel the little bit of scientific background I earned has taught me to look at the practical side of any given situation.  But I don’t regret switching my focus to small business either.  I find being self-employed affords me to use all that I am, my character, education and experience, and keeps me interested in my work. 

All this to say, I think it’s unfair to look at those outside of sciences and judge them to be less capable than the ‘scientists.’  Your statement is fair only if the reverse is true;

when young school children (and even adults) are overwhelmed by [music and the arts], they turn to the [health and science] fields to get away from having to learn and use [music and art].

Sounds kind of funny, eh?

Susan

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Posted: 28 April 2005 05:43 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]  
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I interpreted this a little differently since I teach and have actually seen this in operation.  I think the key here is the term “overwhelm”.  The way science and math are taught, in general, do overwhelm most students.  The ones who “like” those subjects will prevail - they learn in spite of the methods used to force knowledge into their heads.  But many more, who, if given better instruction, would actually keep up with the math and science (or art and literature - or sociology and history) and even go on to work in these fields are simply turned off.

My reason for saying this is that I have witnessed the opposite condition. Truly inspired, knowledgable, and sensitive math teachers are able to bring many more students along by changing the method as appropriate to the learning style of the individual.  Of course, this generally can only work in select private schools (where I observed this phenomenon).  Public schools are mass producers.  They are stuck treating everyone the same.

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Posted: 28 April 2005 05:49 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]  
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Susan, I hope that I have not presented science and math as superior fields to performing or social fields, etc. - what I am most concerned about is that performing arts are promoted TO THE detriment of the sciences and math

that is what I am saying

preaching is, in my opinion, just another performing art, although far below in value than other performing arts - but is generally opposed to the methods of science - your children do not seem to be going into the “preaching” profession - good for them, and for the rest of the world

nevertheless, no-one can deny the influence of science and math in our lives - however, regarding the behavior of society, we need to understand that we must all get along - this is an innate aspect of humanity that does NOT require biblical interpretations, just normal brains and normal sense

Fran Lorin

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Posted: 28 April 2005 05:53 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]  
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it is difficult to respond to a “guest”, not knowing who the “guest” is or which postings can be attributed to the “guest” - don’t be afraid to identify yourself - your posts (whichever “guest” you may be) seem well thought out

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Posted: 03 May 2005 02:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]  
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Champion said: <There are intellectuals like yourself out there who’ve tried to use science to hide behind their hate of the living God. How else do you explain the fact that you do not believe? The evidence is all around you. >

there is clearly little logic behind these statements, as normal readers can see

regarding using science to hide behind a “hate of a living god” - actually, a normal person doesn’t hate a living god, but rather simply ignores the “presence” of a nonexistent “living god” unless persons nearby keep thrusting it into their face - like having to turn on tv and seeing nothing but hateful preachers taking about some “loving, but vengeful god”

Champion further said:
<Yes, the odd thing is not that there are soooooooo many of us believers>

yep, and there are soooo many cockroaches too - as with cockroaches, we normal people can make sure they don’t infest our lives and homes and prevent them from spreading their germs of destruction

Fran Lorin

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