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Bury the dead pope already…
Posted: 05 April 2005 05:50 AM   [ Ignore ]  
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This whole pope thing is really depressing me. The old guy died, after a long series of tortous encores (almost as boring as watching Teri what's-her-face kick it).

So bury the guy, elect the next grand wizard and let's get back to some good old religious discrimination and social engineering, why don't we? Why drag it out on for days, taking up valuable news airtime. How many times do we need to see the dead body lying there, with thousands of mourners cashing in, pathetically faking sadness in an attempt to secure a few more frequent-prayer points. 

In the meantime, the world is adrift without moral leadership. All over the place, girls are having sex before marriage. Boys are masturbating. People with AIDS are having sex, and what's worse, the're using condoms. Gay people are sleeping together. Lots of people are doing stuff with their own bodies that just isn't right. (Lots of priests are doing stuff with little kiddies' bodies that isn't right either, but let's all stay quiet about that, shall we?).

Clearly we need a new grand wizard, and fast. Bury the old guy and let's get back to normal. I can't stand the moral vacuum.

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Posted: 06 April 2005 12:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]  
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The Pope was a hero to many catholics and will soon be made a saint. Even in death, he still provides inspiration and solace to many of the world’s poor.

He was surely one of the 20th century’s greatest leaders and one of history’s great icons. It is right and proper that we should venerate his mortal remains, as the millions now filing past his body will testify to.

I don’t know who you are, Mr. Neitzsche, but you’re opinions are sinful and unhelpful. Please keep them to yourself and I will pray for your soul. And praise be to John Paul the Great!

Fr. Ted Greeley
Boston

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Posted: 06 April 2005 12:44 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]  
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[quote author=“Father Ted”]The Pope was a hero to many catholics and will soon be made a saint. Even in death, he still provides inspiration and solace to many of the world’s poor.

May the Pope rest in peace, but could this be a false sense of inspiration and solace to the poor? I’m no expert, nor much of an intellectual, but the Roman Catholic Church is an extremely lavish church. Instead of sporting gold or highly decocrative brass candle holders(for instance), why wouldn’t they sacrifice them for gold painted plastic candle holders and give the proceeds to the poor. Also, the Roman Catholic Church is the largest real estate holder on the planet. How many of their churches are filled with the poor? How many of their basements are filled with the poor? I’m sure the sale of even one spectacular church would provide housing or food or medicine for many poor people. Why do we even need churches? I believe a biblical quote goes something like: “even if two or more gather in my name, I will be there”. In other words, is not God everywhere?
If you could clear this up a bit for me, it would be quite helpful, Thanks

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Posted: 06 April 2005 02:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]  
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The Pope was a hero to many catholics and will soon be made a saint. Even in death, he still provides inspiration and solace to many of the world’s poor.

He was surely one of the 20th century’s greatest leaders and one of history’s great icons. It is right and proper that we should venerate his mortal remains, as the millions now filing past his body will testify to.

I don’t know who you are, Mr. Neitzsche, but you’re opinions are sinful and unhelpful. Please keep them to yourself and I will pray for your soul. And praise be to John Paul the Great!

Fr. Ted Greeley
Boston


Ah ...now Ted…wait just a minute. I though that lots of Catholics were disappointed in JP II’s lack of progressive policies. Solice to the world’s poor?  The RCC and JPII has made all efforts to maintain the poor in superstition, ignorance and poverty.  JPII did nothing over 25 years to purge your church of pedophile priests and instead engaged in racketeering in an attempt to conceal it.  Great icon? Inspiration?

Pray for Nietzsche?

Pray for yourself. Pray there is no god.  For if there is one, your punishment will be among the greatest


Stay Well

Wot

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Posted: 06 April 2005 07:46 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]  
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[quote author=“Father Ted”]The Pope was a hero to many catholics and will soon be made a saint. Even in death, he still provides inspiration and solace to many of the world’s poor.

He was surely one of the 20th century’s greatest leaders and one of history’s great icons. It is right and proper that we should venerate his mortal remains, as the millions now filing past his body will testify to.

I don’t know who you are, Mr. Neitzsche, but you’re opinions are sinful and unhelpful. Please keep them to yourself and I will pray for your soul. And praise be to John Paul the Great!

Fr. Ted Greeley
Boston

This is a joke, right?  Have you noticed what forum you’re in? 

We as humans have an unnatural, perverted fascination with the dead.  Witness Princess Diana, Ronald Reagan, the pope, whomever.  “Pilgrims” are standing in lines miles long to view the pope’s carcass, that is just disgusting.  Do they really need to see his corpse to realize he’s gone?  And why do we drain the bodily fluids of a dead person, fill them with preservatives, dress them in their finest, put make-up on them and put them on display?  Isn’t the barbarity of this ritual plain to everyone?  We live in a sick world.

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Posted: 06 April 2005 07:59 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]  
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Those who don’t have much in the way of respect for the Pope . . . why in the hell do you even care how the world’s Catholics (and many many others) feel or how they grieve?

It’s pretty damn narcissistic to disparage those who feel the need to grieve over an important leader’s death.

That’s just twisted—suggests personal issues rather than anything about the Pope or Catholicism.

Byron

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Posted: 07 April 2005 01:52 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]  
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Those who don’t have much in the way of respect for the Pope . . . why in the hell do you even care how the world’s Catholics (and many many others) feel or how they grieve?

It’s pretty damn narcissistic to disparage those who feel the need to grieve over an important leader’s death.

That’s just twisted—suggests personal issues rather than anything about the Pope or Catholicism.

Byron

Byron
Some, like me, came away from Sam’s book with a new undetstanding that we give way too much deference to the religious and that the irrationality of religion needs to be challengenged more openly.  The preoccupation of the religious with the papacy is in this domain.  I think it’s apparent that there is a lot of hypocracy going on concerning JP II by world leaders not the least of which is Bush.  I think you know how the fundamentalist christian right really views the papacy and Catholicism in gereral - as a cult. Inflating JPII to something he was not, is not something I will pass on or defer to the religious.

I know some comment like mine may seem very direct and even cruel but religion vs. reason is personal indeed - very personal.


Stay Well

Wot

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Posted: 07 April 2005 03:37 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]  
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[quote author=“Wotansson”]I know some comment like mine may seem very direct and even cruel but religion vs. reason is personal indeed - very personal.


Criticizing the sudden reverence we’re hearing from certain sources is another matter. My post was about reacting to Father Ted’s defensiveness at being provoked as if he were out of line. That’s just not rational—requires a willful obliviousness to rather less than obscure realities of human nature.

Let’s be real. Provoking Catholics with anti-papal criticism right now (particularly mockery or harsh and unnecessarily hostile criticism) isn’t a real smart way to communicate—eh? Doing so speaks to other motives than the genuine desire to promote intellectual and conversational equity, or to sincerely discuss matters of faith.

You don’t have to ignore the emotional sensibilities of believers to avoid being overly deferent to religious belief. I’m all over the idea that sometimes there’s not an option, or even that sometimes some people should be offended, but a period of mourning isn’t generally such a time, and sincerely grieving mourners certainly aren’t such people.

At least for the time being how about we leave them alone to grieve, particularly since right now much more so than normal, doing the contrary is counterproductive and divisive. At the very least it would be good to demonstrate that you don’t have to be religious to have compassion, just human.

[quote author=“Wotansson”]Some, like me, came away from Sam’s book with a new undetstanding that we give way too much deference to the religious and that the irrationality of religion needs to be challengenged more openly.


Others, like me, came away satisfied in that Sam had given an even-tempered, soundly critical, and most of all a highly credible voice to our existing understanding. The power Sam’s voice has over so many others is that it’s not the voice of an even slightly emotionally hijacked mind. That gives Sam a deep credibility that’s hard to ignore for anyone who can bring a shred of intellectual honesty to bear on the matter.

There’s a critical difference between aggressively throwing up a defiant fist (or other provocative gesture) at the status quo, and uncompromisingly maintaining intellectual integrity and understanding, and there’s a critical difference in the credibility and response each posture commands.

Byron

[ Edited: 07 April 2005 03:40 AM by ]
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Posted: 07 April 2005 03:37 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]  
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actually I have to agree with Nietzsche, between Terri Schiavo and the Pope’s death, I havent seen any actual NEWS for weeks.

I have seen interesting things in the little tickers, like moving 12 million tons of radioactive waste away from Denver’s drinking water supply, but it went by so fast I barely sure I read it right.

I have been watching telemundo some, they do alot of pope but not near as much as CNN, FOX, and MSNBC, and besides it seems so much better in spanish.

BBC actually had some news too !!

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Posted: 07 April 2005 04:37 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]  
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Others, like me, came away satisfied in that Sam had given an even-tempered, soundly critical, and most of all a highly credible voice to our existing understanding. The power Sam’s voice has over so many others is that it’s not the voice of an even slightly emotionally hijacked mind. That gives Sam a deep credibility that’s hard to ignore for anyone who can bring a shred of intellectual honesty to bear on the matter.

There’s a critical difference between aggressively throwing up a defiant fist (or other provocative gesture) at the status quo, and uncompromisingly maintaining intellectual integrity and understanding, and there’s a critical difference in the credibility and response each posture commands.

Byron


Ok Byron - I get the point and you are right. I just got pissed and lost it. I promise to exercise better self control.


Stay Well

Wot

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Posted: 07 April 2005 09:41 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]  
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To SkepticX’s comment about why do we make an issue of this, my point is that the world’s political leaders and news media have completely overblown the significance this event and are meekly acquiescing to the religious establishment, for dubious reasons.

Remember Sam’s argument that tolerant religious types create the space for fundamentalists to exist: this week’s events are a monumental celebration of religious toleration, with world leaders, religious leaders, every news organisation and millions of unthinking devotees falling over themselves to praise JP2’s wonderful moral leadership. The has been very little comment about how his conservative stance has dramatically held back women’s rights, gay rights, scientific research, the limiting of HIV/AIDS and so on. Why is he not being held to account on these moral issues also? Sure, he objected to war, but that’s an easy stance, especially when nobody was threatening to invade the vatican.

The wall-to-wall news coverage sends a signal that this man was one of the most important leaders of the 20th century, and the uncritical nature of the coverage suggests to the impressionable masses that everything he stood for was morally right and that he was somehow on a different moral plane to the rest of us.  Now, this message just happens to be useful to the religious right, regardless of the fact that he was not of the same denomination. Isn’t it all a little suspicious? How else could the religious right have sucured a week long news blackout to pump out the message that abortion is wrong, sex is wrong, god is the saviour etc?

Therefore, we are right to object to this, just as much as we would if the religious right took over the news media for a week.

I won’t even comment on the shameless hypocrisy of political leaders feeding at the trough of public sentiment.

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Posted: 08 April 2005 12:10 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]  
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[quote author=“Nietzsche”]To SkepticX’s comment about why do we make an issue of this . . .


Actually that wasn’t what my comment was about. For example, I don’t think there’s any problem with the rest of the post that followed the above excerpt.

Byron

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Posted: 08 April 2005 05:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]  
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I don’t see any of the comments here being particularly cruel to the mourners, at least not any more offensive than we generally are to people living in the warp of a major delusion. I think that Byron feels we should give them their few days of crying and mourning without challenging their motivations, to me that seems like a cop out.  There is little, or nothing, to mourn over, better people die everyday and none of them get a specatcle like this morbid show of misplaced emotion and longing. 

Of course the media is largely to blame as lisbliss said, we haven’t seen a real news item for two weeks now.  This whole fascination for death and sainthood is a symptom of the sickness of our society - the death of Princess Diana was another example.  Everybody is pandering desperately to the “majority” from the medias to world leaders to religious fanatics everywhere.  I look at father Ted’s proclamation - and there’s hardly an ounce of truth in it. Most of what he said is based on his own dreamy world of rose-colored christianity.

I believe strongly with the majority of postings on this thread that we must speak out against this sort of madness and hi-jacking of our (i.e., humanity’s) sensibilities. Let’s cut out all the overdramatic nonsense and the “seductive dance of the christian whore” that is hogging the airwaves.

Bob

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Posted: 08 April 2005 05:52 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]  
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[quote author=“CanZen”]I don’t see any of the comments here being particularly cruel to the mourners, at least not any more offensive than we generally are to people living in the warp of a major delusion. I think that Byron feels we should give them their few days of crying and mourning without challenging their motivations, to me that seems like a cop out. There is little, or nothing, to mourn over, better people die everyday and none of them get a specatcle like this morbid show of misplaced emotion and longing.


Would you say any such a thing to another class of individuals mourning over the death of a venerated leader? If so, why the difference?

But even still, that wasn’t quite my point either. My point, again, was more about reacting to the negative response of a mourner as if he were to blame for being put on the defensive, which requires a [selectively] wilfull ignorance regarding human nature.

Byron

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Posted: 08 April 2005 07:21 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]  
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The late pope was a figure that almost tempts me to believe in conspiracy theories. Let’s forget about his positions on birth control,abortion,gays,women,etc….We can also put aside his ugly failures
in terms of the sex-abuse scandal and the patting on the back Cardinal
Law received from this “saintly” pontiff. I could go on and speak about
the scandals regarding Banco Ambrosiano and the shawdowy “P2 lodge”. The pope’s role or lack thereof,is not entirely known there and I see it has already been delt with on this forum.


    How about his inconsistancy in condemnations of political leaders/organizations. I have no problem with his stance on communism.
Why did the pope not take an equally aggressive role in regards to right-wing fascists like Pineocet of Chile and the brutal right-wing thugs of central america? He was openly critical of priests involved in the “liberation theology” movement saying it was “marxism dressed up as
Catholic teaching”. Mabye he was correct,but any term like “marxism” and “fascism” for that matter,is highly subject to hijacking for whatever
motives. When the pope/vatican was questioned about his lack of moral
courage regarding Pineocet,the response was a predictable PR “the pope
privately condemned pineocet”. Public condemnation of a priest in the “liberation theology” movement and glad-handing with Pineocet?
From a pratical perspective,it may be easy enough to understand this
pope’s motives in certain political arenas. The Pope probably saw Pineocet,fascism,the right etc… as the lesser of two evils in a cold war world.However,all things considered and being aware of most of the shameful history of the popes and the church in general,all of this santification is making me quite ill. If I really was so inclined (thankfully i’m not) I would say something like mabye JP II was a CIA implant!!!!
Ok I know what your thinking,  but all I can say is i’ve heard far more ridiculous conspiracy theories. That one just has a few screws loose.

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Posted: 08 April 2005 01:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]  
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As for allowing the world it’s mourning time,I see little neccessity for this
beyond anything Sam Harris has said.Like I said,I would not put JP2 at the same level as a Hitler.I would be perfectly comfortable placing him
right up there with a crooked CEO. I really don’t think the majority of the
world would mourn the death of someone like that. It would be limited to immediate family and friends. If we can’t get over this childish notion that
the dead no matter who they are,should never be ill-spoken of then we have not progressed very much. I never wished death upon him,but the man was in general,a creep. I for one, refuse to create a saint out of a
deliberate fraud and a person who would shake hands with a Pinocet while harshly condeming a “marxist” priest.  Then turn around and kiss Fidel’s a**? This guy was as politicallly expediant as the best of them. It sure smells like moral relativism to me. Just another example of christian
who was intolerably bad at practicing what he preached. Whatever happened to the philosophy of “the ends do not justify means” so part and parcel to the catholic worldview?

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