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Chronicles of Mormonia II
Posted: 15 November 2006 02:35 AM   [ Ignore ]  
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For your perusal, I present to you, in vivid Technicolor even, a recent interaction with people of my former faith, Mormonism who claim that Mormonism is true and cannot be proven false and if you leave it, you are probably just depressed, sinning, or lazy…

A Mormon FAIRBOARDS Poster wrote:
One cannot prove mormonism false

QUOTE(Noggin @ Nov 13 2006, 12:51 AM)

So? Neither has Catholicism been proven false (in their view). Nor has Islam. Nor Jehovah's Witnesses, Nor Eckankar. Even Scientologists believe that Scientology has not been proven false. Evangelical Christians "know" that Mormonism is false. It's all subjective to the perspective.
Noggin

QUOTE(Fairboards Poster @ Nov 14 2006, 07:29 AM)

And this is why, Noggin, that you will not hear me say that all the above religions are false. All have the pieces of truth inside of them. However, in the mormon case, there is a book which is claimed to be of devine origin. And this claim has not been proven false. And that is my point. Those who leave Mormonism do not leave because of falseness but rather because of a perceived falseness. And it is this perceived falseness of feeling that many [like you, Noggin]  attempt to use to destroy someone's faith in the Mormon church.

And that is dishonest and a problem.

Hi, Fairboards Poster. Just a question. I will leave your claim that the Book of Mormon has not been proven false on the table for now. You claim that Mormonism is true because the Book of Mormon has not been proven false. You claim that the other religions I listed are not false but you extend a qualifier in that the other religions have only pieces of the truth inside of them, suggesting that they are found lacking when compared to Mormonism. If they are found lacking, then they, by default, do not have all of the truth, and thus are incapable of saving a man's soul. Else what would it matter that Mormonism claims to have all of the truth pertaining to god's outlined organization on earth today?

Do you claim that Mormonism has all of the pieces of truth inside of it?

I guess that you do.

Do you say that the Qur'an's divine origin has been proven false? Can you prove that? There are many who believe that they can prove it. But then we see 2 billion Muslim souls who vigorously refute that they have succeeded. Yet I do not see you running out to face Mecca 5 times a day on your knees. You are the Mormon version of the 2 billion Muslim stalwarts. You are no different. You believe that your book has not been proven false while many believe that it is… else we would be along side you, linked arms, singing the anthems of Joseph Smith.

In the end, there is no proof against religion except logic or probability for the case that it is all invented to assuage our human fears against scary unknown existential death conundrums.

In this very thread [on FAIR] we have painfully read the words of a few practicing, struggling, Mormons who admit that they cannot get any gods to talk or respond to them. This is a pervasive problem. The more I talk to people around me about how god interacts with them, the more I see how selective the gods are. And it raises a legitimate red flag. One person has private 2-way conversations with her god on a daily basis while the rest of us are, what? shunned? If god exists, it would not be so selectively capriciously hit and miss with it's creation.

Yours in the spirit of [a reknowned Book of Mormon Atheist villain],

Noggin

RESPONSE FROM ANOTHER LDS POSTER:

I do not know everybody that claim's God is talking to them on a regular basis is always experiencing a conversation. People can get carried away by feelings, and get worked up into thinking God talks to them.

Who say's God is shunning the person because he does not visible talk to them? I have had the presence of the Holy Spirit in a mild way manifest. That to me is God talking to me. So I don't have to have others mighty experiences in order to believe in God. I can have the best experience with God I can, and thats ok. Even if my experience is from my own subjective feelings to a degree that's ok with me.

I think that you have to make sure before you approach trying to experience God that you don't suffer from depression. Depression can make you feel very apathetic towards spiritual things. I have suffered a chronic illness the last three years. I have been depressed. I don't have as many warm fuzzy experience as I used to.

Read faith promoting literature. Listen to spiritual music. Nuture what faith you have. If yu don't do that you are more likely to [leave Mormonism] than those who stay. Church attendance takes discipline. I have been to ill lately to be that disciplined. But I try & set apart some time for spiritual things. I am horrible at prayer, but I try & read spiritual things.

I should probably give up…......  This is way weird.  It's me 4 or 5 years ago.  You know, perhaps this man is depressed because god simply does not work reliably enough.  What if that was the case?  I know I battled mild depression for decades off and on due, in part, from cowering frequently from my god for feeling like a sinful schmuck and never getting any where with god's approval mechanism.

Noggin

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Posted: 15 November 2006 01:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]  
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Interesting. Did you notice a sudden lifting of your depression when you left the church Noggin?

Also, Richard Dawkins, author of The God Delusion, said that the Flying Spegetti Monster can’t be disproven either. LOL

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Posted: 20 November 2006 10:43 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]  
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ALL HAIL the Flying Spaghetti Monster! :twisted:

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Posted: 19 February 2007 08:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]  
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rab

I did experience bouts of depression in Mormonism.  Especially towards the end when I was going back and forth trying to figure out if it was bogus or not.  I can’t tell you adequately how horrific it was to feel so alone among my family and friends.  What was wrong with me, you know?  Why did I figure all this out and no one else?  Why were they all so adamant against looking at what I found out?  And why make me feel so shitty for trying to get to the bottom of it?

Then I’d give Mormonism another try… a good heave ho effort of redoubling and recommitment.  Perhaps I just needed to read more scriptures and pray and fast (no eating or drinking for 24 or more hours) more. ???  Maybe God was testing me.  The depression was worst at the end.  I had all of these church responsibilities and hardly the will or desire to fulfill them all.  I was supposed to attend the temple once a month, visit and administer to about 4 families needs each month, teach the 19-41 year old men on about a weekly basis which required that I prepare an invigorating “sermon” that usually lasted about 30 minutes… and which was designed to motivate these men according to the assigned topic at hand…  the duties were many and I just could not find the strength to go out and do it any more.  In my church, resigning was not an option.  Unless you reveled in failure.  Asking to be released from church duties was done by those who had extreme hardship and sometimes was not granted even though the individual asked for it.

Anyhow.  I am sure that sums up nicely how I was able to experience depression relevant to my religion.  I can also say that as I approached the decision finally to leave the church, I was counseled that satan was deceiving me and I needed to be strong and will myself to be more faithful and this trial of faith would eventually pass and I would be all the stronger for it.  I asked why god would abandon me in my hour of need.  I had prayed my guts out for about a year full time.  All I got was silence.  The reply?  God abandoned his son Jesus also when Jesus was on the cross.  Gee thanks.

It’s all part and parcel dogmatics.  Its so thick that when you are in it you just cannot see it.

Coming out of Mormonism was like a fog lifted from my life and I saw things in brilliant technocolor for the first time.  That has somewhat faded but I still appreciate being able to “do” life as it makes sense to me.  Those tradewinds are enough to fill my sails and send me on down the island chains.  It just feels so great to know I can stop at any island, coe or just drift if drifting is on my agenda that day.  My kids are what matter most to me, I hope to show them how rich life can be.

Noggin

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Posted: 19 February 2007 08:39 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]  
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I forgot to mention the experience I had at our Stake Conference (regional Mormon meeting) yesterday.  Again, I attend to support my wife in what she believes.  I am always amused with the preaching out against the “evil world”.  Is our world really all that evil?  Was the world but only a few generations ago really all that puritanical or is that just selective hindsight?  This “our world is so evil” tripe probably ranks among the top three themes that The Bretheren in Mormonism use in just about every point of doctrine that they discuss over the pulpit.  Here is an example:

The Internet is good, what a wonderful tool!  But remember Satan has commandeered this technology and is using it to feed our childrens minds full of pornography, violence and subtle agendas of tolerance for things against god.  We must be ever vigilent against the adversary lest we slip and fall into a pit of despair.

Now I agree that pornography is not something I want my kids to be around.  But I don’t want them growing up in a bubble either.  Women, imo, should not be objectified, and pornography can do that.  But does it really take a church in my life to enforce that?  Maybe it helps to hear messages like the one I just quoted above on a regular basis.

Another example:

Marrige is a holy union between a man and a wife approved by god.  The World is trying desperately to blur the lines between what god has approved and what has been decreed an abomination.

The ever ready call to arms for the Anti-Gay marriage agenda.  I still haven’t figured out how two men or two women marrying affects my marriage in any way.

and the third example:

Today is a wonderful day to recommit yourself to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.  Your Heavenly Father wants you to read your scriptures daily and draw near to him on your knees in prayer.  This will strengthen your convictions and renew your ability to serve in his kingdom here on earth.

This could easily read:

Today is a wonderful day to reindoctrinate yourself into believing unquestioningly and unflinchingly ever word that we tell you is true.  We want you to read your scriptures and pray mightily in searching yourself for how true our words (dogma) feels.  Then give yourself up to us, your time, your talents, your money.

I found that statement to be false.  Truth cannot be verified by how things feel.  Once this Mormon methodology for establishing what is true and what must be therefore false lost its luster, I no longer had the power to follow it.  In fact, I can hardly see how that formula ever made sense at all.

I guess I am completely in the minority as practically everyone else I know does this prescription for verifying Truth and declares it to be wonderfully bullet proof.  In fact, it was just that this oft touted formula failed to do what was promised that eventually lead me away from the church.

And hell, as if this is not long enough I present the fourth item for review in this curriculum (Pop Quiz—likely tomorrow):

My dear brothers and sisters today we live in the final winding up scene, even the last days before the great and terrible day of judgement when Jesus descends in his clouds of glory to usher in the final millenium.  Make no mistake about it, our world is ever ripening for destruction and we cannot afford to be found seperated from the flock. These are the days when mens’ hearts shall fail them, wickedness will abound, and lofty pride shall be one of the terrible scourges of the earth.

You have to appreciate the doom and gloom factor.  Couldn’t leave that out… as it’s another staple dietary necessity for just about every sermon given in that church.  Nevermind that for the last 175 years this earth has always been deemed “extremely wicked” by whatever current prophet of that day.

Thus concludes this chronicle.  There you have just read but a few selected tidbits from two current apostles of the lord jesus christ.  If you ever wondered what they talk about in mormon regional conferences, now you know.  It isn’t exactly bad stuff, but it is chalk full of dogma.

Noggin

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Posted: 20 February 2007 12:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]  
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[quote author=“Noggin”]Again, I attend to support my wife in what she believes.

And two weeks out of every month, she goes to support YOU in the worship of YOUR choice, right? No, I thought not.

It isn’t exactly bad stuff, but it is chalk full of dogma.

And is, therefore, “bad stuff”.  You must not mind it that much.

annalise

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Posted: 21 February 2007 03:55 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]  
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[quote author=“Noggin”]Again, I attend to support my wife in what she believes.

And two weeks out of every month, she goes to support YOU in the worship of YOUR choice, right? No, I thought not.

It’s often assumed that I am steam rolled over here.  She does support me in significant ways.  I don’t have to attend church with her, but it makes her happy.  It’s kind of like going grocery shopping with her.  I really can think of one hundred things I’d rather do, but she likes puttering through the aisles once in awhile with me so I go.

I honestly feel she loves me even though I took off the named sacred underwear and quit on her dreams of having an “eternal family” bond.  So for at least 2 or 3 hours a month she does demonstrate that she supports what I believe.

Noggin wrote:  It isn’t exactly bad stuff, but it is chalk full of dogma.

And is, therefore, “bad stuff”.  You must not mind it that much.

annalise

I think it’s more along the lines that I wear a teflon coating these days.  The stuff doesn’t stick to me anymore.  It took several years off and on for me to develop this capability.

I believe my posting “Chronicles” might allow people who cruise over here to see what’s what in the “cult” section (those like “alloutjeff”, an ex-JW) peek into another similar world and help them see they aren’t the only ones who belong or belonged to a truly authoritarian based dogma machine.  Seeing such a machine in a different shape, size or color can be eye poppingly refreshing.

I should mention here that if the reader hasn’t been immersed in any culture like this, it can be difficult for them to understand the fascination and the collosial tractor beam pull those struggling to get out of it face.  Those of us who have successfully deconstructed, I think, have a duty—if they care at all about others in this plight who might wonder what they are involved in—to shed light on the subject.

Noggin

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Posted: 22 March 2007 10:50 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]  
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Nogs,

My mom and I were talking of matters Mormonia the other night, and we wondered what happens to the Mormon wife who dies before her husband? What if it’s even decades  before? Is she temporarily placed on some other man’s planet, in his harem, to await her husband’s death, or is she held in a sort of stasis, as he lives out his mortal days with a second and possibly third earthly wife?

Part Deux of the question—and I can’t remember if Mormons can reproduce in the afterlife—but if they can, what if that wife has some other man’s children before her ‘real’ husband arrives? Who gets custody of the offspring when he finally shows up to fetch his wife and take her back to his own planet?

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Posted: 23 March 2007 06:23 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]  
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Oh Hi Mia!

[quote author=“Mia”]Nogs,

My mom and I were talking of matters Mormonia the other night, and we wondered what happens to the Mormon wife who dies before her husband?

Well, according to the story line, the two of them are sealed for eternity to each other.  There is one caveat.  They can be together forever only if both of them were completely faithful to the Mormon ideals while they lived on earth.  This includes paying 10% of ones income to the church, no drinking, no smoking, no sex outside of marriage in any way shape or form.. even imaginary sex.  That and a required willingness to devote anywhere from 5 to 20 hours or more per week to working in the church in various capacities.  Hung over the heads of the members is the dangling carrot that if they do not perform the traditional role as dictated by the current living prophet of God on earth, and do so willingly and happily (service with a smile), they will not inherit celestial glory with their spouses.  They do not have a prayer to become a god in the next world.


what happens to the wife if she dies prior to the husband?  The traditional belief is that she is ushered into the spirit world where she will be kept very busy doing a variety of tasks in preparation for Jesus’ 2nd coming.  Lots to do there!  It is pretty certain among most Mormons that the dead assist in the monumental task of assimilating the huge amount of names of other dead who died without a knowledge of Mormonism.  These must, under Mormon law, be baptised into Mormonism in the temples posthumously.  Yes, this means that one day every person reading this post (YES—YOU) will be baptized posthumously into the mormon church.  If you have a birth certificate, regardless of nation or creed, you will eventually be considered Mormon by the living mormons after your death.  Or at least, having had the opportunity to be Mormon.  If Mormonism is true, though, what dead idiot is going to say NO Thanks to the dead mormon missionaries preaching to them.  I mean, logically, it is not like there will be competing Jehovah’s Witnesses or Catholic doctrine to choose from, eh?  So what then?  Those who aren’t Mormon can live a riotous life now and then accept Mormonism later when it is obviously the really for reals true church?  (just hypothetically speaking of course…). 

Sidebar note:  Jews are currently raising a huge stink about this and have gone rounds with the Mormon church protesting the baptising of their Jewish ancestory into Mormonism.  Mormons agreed to quit it, but the rumor is that they still do it but keep no record (traceable ones that is) of the baptism.

It’s written that every soul shall have the opportunity to accept or reject Mormonism as the saving gospel for mankind either in this life or the next.

So busy busy busy.  The dead are doing a host of activities in connection with this salvation post humous baptism activity.  Included in this work is rumored to be much missionary work in a place called “Spirit Prison”.  Spirit Prison is that place where all the Non mormon souls go after they die.  If you die faithful Mormon, you don’t go there.  But so, much preaching to the non mormon souls is done.  Those who are preached to in Spirit Prison hear the Mormon version of gospel and can then accept the message “on faith” that Mormonism is true.  If they do this, their names are placed in a holding tank until someone on earth, a living temple worthy Mormon, goes to some temple on some continent and gets baptised for the person that accepted the message in Spirit Prison.

Many tales are told about desperate disembodied spirits haunting their progentors to get their work done.  My own father had a dream once where he dreamed his dead father (who incidentally died non mormon, eschewing his son’s religion to his death, ) screamed out my fathers name in order to get his attention that his Mormon baptism needed to be done… PRONTO.  That year we all high tailed it to the temple and he baptised me for his father’s sake.  As I came out of the water, my dad said into the air something to the effect, “Well Dad, your work is done, you can now enter the Kingdom”.

What if it’s even decades  before?

Sorry.  I got side tracked.  It doesn’t matter if it is decades.  Usually, if the marriage is strong when she dies, that serves as a great motivator for the husband to ratchet up his commitment to Mormonism so he can be sure to see his sweetie pie again.

Normally, he will get married again to another woman in the temple.  If the woman is not married to another man, the man will now have two wives or three as the case maybe (if he has two dead wives already etc).  This is how Mormon polygamy is practiced today in mainstream Salt Lake mormonism.  I know several Mormon men who are in this situation.  Most of them openly embrace polygamy principles as a divine principle.  They are married to their current wife, but still consider themselves married to their previous wife (wives) and love them all, they say, equally.  It is a given that this man and the live wife understand that when they all die the three or four of them etc will live a life together that includes polygamous marriage.

If the woman is already married for eternity to another man and this man has died, she can get married to another man but not for eternity, for earth time only.  Its a wierd deal.  It’s basically a companionship gig only.

Is she temporarily placed on some other man’s planet, in his harem, to await her husband’s death, or is she held in a sort of stasis, as he lives out his mortal days with a second and possibly third earthly wife?

Okay.  Mormons believe that one cannot govern a planet as a god until they are exhalted as one.  This cannot happen until they are resurrected.  The resurrection cannot happen until Jesus comes again.  There are rarest of rare exceptions.  Joseph Smith is rumored to already be a god.

Therefore, she is not placed on another man’s planet, though I guess in theory she could be if several exceptions to status quo rules and regs were made.  Traditional exegis of the doctrines dictate that usually, the dead serve god in the capacity of missionary work getting the temple work furthered along for the ushering in of the great and terrible day of the lord.  Then the resurrection happens, then the crown of Godhood, if earned, might be bestowed to a select few who are worthy enough for it.  Then the planets can be created by these who will reign over them as “Kings and Queens unto the most high”.

Part Deux of the question—and I can’t remember if Mormons can reproduce in the afterlife—but if they can, what if that wife has some other man’s children before her ‘real’ husband arrives?

See, no, the traditional model serves out that reproduction of spirit offspring will happen only to those who qualify to become gods through proving themselves here on earth to the God of this planet that they are strong willed enough to exercise faith in Mormonism that they can be trusted with the powers of Godhood.  Mormonism is pretty far out there stuff.  That only serves to make the “test of faith” all the more challenging. 

Okay.  These who prove themselves faithful to Mormonism on earth will then be able to create galaxies and planets and then go about populating them with spirit offspring for eternity.  BUT.  In order to become a god, one must first be resurrected.  So you see that procreation, for mormons, is extremely sacred as the human couple becomes tandem with God in very deed by providing mortal bodies for the spirit offspring created by the God of their planet.

Now you might see why homosexuality is such an abboration among Mormons.

Who gets custody of the offspring when he finally shows up to fetch his wife and take her back to his own planet?

not applicable.

I could talk all day about this.  Writing it out reinforces how bizarre it all is to me now.  But it was so perfectly June Cleaver normal to me once upon a time.

Noggin

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Posted: 23 March 2007 11:15 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]  
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The thing about creating galaxies and planets makes me wonder if L. Ron Hubbard borrowed some of those ideas for Scientology.

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Posted: 23 March 2007 12:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]  
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Hi rab

I wouldn’t be surprised.  But only as primer.  Mormons have a planet they named Kolob pegged as the home where God is.  Scientology has Xenu or Xenon as I recall.  Hubbard’s tale of the thetans and nuclear bombs exploding is more creative, imo.

Mia—

Back to the wierd deal.  I hope you don’t mind but I had another thought real quick here.

Quote Mia:
Who gets custody of the offspring when he finally shows up to fetch his wife and take her back to his own planet?


Noggin responded: not applicable.

But what is applicable is the scenario my dad is now in.  He is marrying again in May.  This lady is already married for eternity to her husband who just died last year.  So.  Dad and his fiance are “pledged” for eternity to other spouses.  Both know that they are marrying for “Time” only.  When both die, that’s it they go back to their other spouses.

Meanwhile, here on earth en vivo, they share conjugals etc and have some very good times and laughs for say 2 decades.  I don’t understand the premise of love that these two people are pledging to each other.  My dad has a picture of my mom on his desk, and right beside it is a picture of his fiance.  He told me he has two women that he loves now.  But it’s so wierd.

In a sense, my father has to have a looming qualifier placed on the end of the sentance he utters to this new flame of his. 

I love you so much… (uh, but when we die I don’t love you like I do now.. in fact, I won’t be able to love you whatsoever because I’ll then go back to my 1st wife and you go back to your 1st husband to whom we are eternally sealed.)

That’s a very strange qualifier.  Like I said, it’s a companionship gig. 

BUT they both know this is a companionship gig and they both fully believe that they will part ways at death and go back to their 1st spouses.  BUT having shared conjugals and all that, how weird is that?  Assume for a second there is an afterlife and all four of them made it to the status of a God…

What if 1st spouse was a lousy lay?  Wouldn’t there be a nagging pining away for the good stuff in the eternities?  Or lets not be crass here, what if two decades of marriage is enough to determine that the two that married for time really love each other more than they loved their first spouses?  What then?

And how awkward, as a god, to bump into the woman you shared 2 very pleasant decades with on earth… ah, the makings of a Mormon soap opera.  As The World, Kolob, Turns.  Days on Kolob.  Hee hee.  But, of course, since you are a god… and you bump into your significant other that you loved for 2 decades… what will your god wife think?  They can’t be jealous, you know.  No pining away possible.  They are gods!  It’s kind of comical.  I do not understand how my dad cannot think about this stuff and not go crazy admitting he believes it.

You don’t actually need to respond—It’s all so bizarre.  I should ask my dad how he compartmentalizes all of this.  We have talked and he repeatedly affirms how much he loves his new fiance.  He is early 60’s and is like a drug addict for her opiate.  Kid in a candy store.  It’s good… I mean.. he was hardly this happy with my mom.  He’s lost weight, he is more friendly than I have seen him ever…. a bounce in his step you know?  I hate to say it, but it is quite possible that there could come a day when life is so blissful, the sex so incredibly different, her touch so wonderfully distinct… that my mom might become more of a troubling fixture in his mind.  As in his feelings run the risk of becoming too deep for this new love… how wierd would that be to be married to someone, Mia, and constantly have to stem back your feelings so you don’t love them too much (out of respect for your dead wife).

Oh man.

Noggin

[ Edited: 23 March 2007 12:26 PM by ]
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Posted: 23 March 2007 12:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]  
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Noggin, that was amazing. Thanks for strolling me through at least a few chapters of this intense sci-fi epic. 

I have to believe that’s a big part of it—that the whole epic nature of the plan is very enticing to the human mind, which seems to naturally attach itself to good (or even bad) storytelling. Mormons get to feel like they are crucial participants, actors in this far-reaching storyline, with all sorts of possible pitfalls and triumphs hanging in the balance. The progression of the story depends  on them! The fates of souls! What could be more compelling?

Can’t say as Catholicism had anything that interesting mapped out. We could look forward to Pergatory and, ideally, Heaven, but the details were very sketchy and stilted. And where they weren’t  sketchy (or simply fabricated in extra-biblical literature), they were unappealing, at least to me. But what guy wouldn’t want to aim for an eternal harem, and lordship over his own planet? It’s the women I wonder about—how they can embrace that whole idea. But I guess by now nothing should shock me about the capacity of humans to accept and even adore what is lined up for them, even if it repulses other people.


So, if I understand correctly, until Jesus returns, much of the greater storyline remains on hold? All the dead can do in the afterlife, for the time being, is a lot of busywork and tidying-up of their souls, and the souls of the non-Mormon dead?

It also sounds as if a great deal depends on the behavior of the husband in the Mormon marriage. After all, if he slips up, and maybe fantasizes about his neighbor’s hot wife, even once or twice, he is jepordizing the whole deal for both he and  his wife (or wives), right? And it would even screw things for the kids? For example, if the wife dies, and ten years later her still-living husband either has an affair or has a series of sexual fantasies, then he has basically trashed her eternity, right? She’s cast adrfit, or doomed to busywork forever, or maybe then assigned to a new harem? Where she once could count on his arrival, and, possibly, the whole “we got our own planet, honey!” scenario, instead she is now approached and informed, presumably in hushed tones, that her hubby messed up and unfortunately her path is now going to change because of that. Sheesh.

Sorry if I am way off base here. . .

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Posted: 23 March 2007 12:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]  
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[quote author=“Mia”]
Can’t say as Catholicism had anything that interesting mapped out. We could look forward to Pergatory and, ideally, Heaven, but the details were very sketchy and stilted.

I used to have a field day with Catholics in Spain.  Our church was a complete abboration to most of the preists.  I would walk down Las Ramblas and get heckled almost daily. 

Brainwashers!  Zombie Cult!

I was spit on, harrassed, all for the name of Jesus.  It so empowered me.  I gloried in it.  Oh well.  Catholicism was very bleak to me.  I admit that I enjoyed (and still do on occasion) sitting in the basillicas.  There is such history in Europe.  Something grounding (to me) about sitting in such old edifices.

So, if I understand correctly, until Jesus returns, much of the greater storyline remains on hold? All the dead can do in the afterlife, for the time being, is a lot of busywork and tidying-up of their souls, and the souls of the non-Mormon dead?

Yeah kind of.  It’s the whole enchilada wrapped up Millenium thing.  When Jesus comes (any day now as this world gets “increasingly evil”,) the great and dreadful last battle ensues, Jesus triumphs over evil, Satan is bound for 1000 years and during that time the Mormon temples will run 24/7 and the whole earth will be filled with billions of mormons doing little more than missionary and temple work for the hosts of billions and billions of deceased.  Since Jesus just got done with his 2nd coming, most of the world will turn to and embrace Mormonism, you see. 

Then Satan is unleashed for one last time to do his final reaping, another very terrible battle takes place on earth, Satan is defeated forever and the earth is transformed into it’s paradasiacal glory.  It becomes a sea of glass.

Then the judgement day happens where all are judged of their works and the faithful get crowned gods and godesses and that is when they can start as gods making planets and solar systems… populating each planet with spirit offspring… making their own adam and eve start things in motion on each planet… and each adam and eve have a tempting snake too.

I’ll stop.  The entire shpeel is fatally flawed beginning with what moron would, after seeing Jesus ride down from the clouds declaring Mormonism as his true church, turn it down?  Yet it is prophecy that so many will do just that.

It also sounds as if a great deal depends on the behavior of the husband in the Mormon marriage. After all, if he slips up, and maybe fantasizes about his neighbor’s hot wife, even once or twice, he is jepordizing the whole deal for both he and  his wife (or wives), right?

Probably 50% of every Mormon authority speech I ever heard deals with repentance.  It is supposed to work somewhat like this:  If you are striving to be Christlike, you receive his image on your countenance and as you draw nearer to Jesus, you lose the desire to do any evil until the perfect day.

Part and parcel to that is how all are supposed to, even required to repent daily and start over.  Sincere repentance is supposed to cure people of lust, drinking habits, drug addictions, spousal abuse, pornography addictions, child molesting tendencies.. backbiting, habitual lying, laziness, slothfulness, pride, and a host of other things.  Jesus is supposed to work magic in people’s lives.  And you know that many are able to change. But… anyhow.  It’s not Jesus.  It’s them.

And it would even screw things for the kids? For example, if the wife dies, and ten years later her still-living husband either has an affair or has a series of sexual fantasies, then he has basically trashed her eternity, right?

I can find early sources that say something to that effect, yes.  BUT.  Mormonism has evolved.  For instance.  I no longer believe at all… but my wife still does… and devoutly.  When we die, the doctrine states that I will be a goat herded to the left and she will be a sheep herded to the right (it’s a metaphor).  It is said now that she will be assigned another mate and assumedly she will get to have some say in the matter.  BUT.  Theoretically, she will never be the 1st wife of a man.  She will be one of the wives of some worthy righteous man who lived up to the Mormon ideals while he lived on earth.

Incidentally, she chooses to not believe in that part of Mormonism.  I applaud her wisdom.

I asked her once if she’d come visit me in hell… which is basically where I am self-assigning myself according to the doctrines she believes in.  We have fun with it kind of not really.

She’s cast adrfit, or doomed to busywork forever, or maybe then assigned to a new harem? Where she once could count on his arrival, and, possibly, the whole “we got our own planet, honey!” scenario, instead she is now approached and informed, presumably in hushed tones, that her hubby messed up and unfortunately her path is now going to change because of that. Sheesh.

Well… see above.

Noggin

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Posted: 24 March 2007 02:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]  
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Hey Noggin’—
    I enjoy reading the detailed accounts you provide of the Mormon beliefs.  It makes me think that maybe there should be a book of sacred writings that actually contains the truth about these things.  For instance, after your death, if you happened to be buried in the same cemetery, next to your wife… say, in pine boxes without all that cement liner and permanent seal kind of nonsense…. Well then, you and your wife could very well be together for all eternity.  As a matter of fact, you could even be part of another planet someday.  Right?  On a molecular level? Maybe all these crazy stories in these crazy religions aren’t really so crazy after all.  Maybe they’re just telling the truth, but in a confused and unclear way.  What do you think?  Okay—very confused, and very unclear… but still…

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Posted: 24 March 2007 03:25 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]  
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[quote author=“woofy”]Hey Noggin’—
    I enjoy reading the detailed accounts you provide of the Mormon beliefs.

thanks.  It’s cathartic, you can tell by the way I get totally distracted as I write it.

  It makes me think that maybe there should be a book of sacred writings that actually contains the truth about these things.

That’s the trick.  what exactly is the truth.

For instance, after your death, if you happened to be buried in the same cemetery, next to your wife… say, in pine boxes without all that cement liner and permanent seal kind of nonsense…. Well then, you and your wife could very well be together for all eternity.  As a matter of fact, you could even be part of another planet someday.  Right?  On a molecular level?

oh!  totally! except there is no more me when the lights go out and my body achieves room temperature.  Having no religion really sucks sometimes wink  It used to be so romantic to have an afterlife all planned out. I never did enjoy paying for that afterlife every month though (10% of my gross income to be exact).

Maybe all these crazy stories in these crazy religions aren’t really so crazy after all.  Maybe they’re just telling the truth, but in a confused and unclear way.  What do you think?  Okay—very confused, and very unclear… but still…

yeah, I tried to think about what you just wrote and aw no I can’t give them that much credit wink  See if the truth is that bodies decay back to dust and that’s it… then I have to say that the embellishments stemming from that truth going on out there in religion are HEINOUS whoppers!! btw, If I had my druthers though and had to pick a religion I think I’d be happy with one that held reincarnation as tierra firma.

Noggin

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Posted: 25 March 2007 01:41 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]  
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10% of gross income for every mormon?  Holy Mackerel! That’s alot of money.  Where does it all go?  Not just to temple maintenance, I would imagine.  Missionary schools maybe?  Printing new books of Mormon?  Do they use any of it for good old charity type stuff?  building hospitals and schools in third world countries and the like?  maybe donating to research on renewable energy and agriculture?  I still think religious groups can and often do do alot of good with all their moolah.  Maybe someday, all the dross of God will be burned off, and what will be left is the shining gold of charitable acts of good will.  It could happen.  I do believe.

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