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The "type" you intellectuals should fear
Posted: 08 April 2005 12:07 PM   [ Ignore ]  
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Ok, since I already told fence sitter about this guy, guess I should go through with this post. I had it mulling around in my mind anyway.

You see, you intellectuals have an easy time attacking the most visable Christian leaders, like the Pope, individual Cardinals, Falwell, James Robinson, Pat Robertson, Billy Graham, Franklin Graham…BUT, there is an undercurrent of intellectualism developing in the Christian world. Folks who have strong appetites for historical perspective, information on skeptism, supportive data for the Christian cause, archeology evidence, etc.

These needs of the faithful and the fencesitters are being nourished by highly educated intellectuals who in some cases were agnostics and skeptics. They gained faith without loss of brain power. They gained religious knowledge and it did not interrupt their mental processes.

So, I think God brings men and women such as these to help stablize the Church. Because their is an unending fight for the hearts and souls of the faithful. And this, my intellectual friends, is the type that you must fear. These are the ones who buttress and hold up the faith when the church's faith is wavering. It is the culture war and you intellectuals are losing the battle. That is because under the surface, folks like these are watering the vines, so to speak.

http://www.ankerberg.com/

http://www.josh.org/apologetics/

Oh yes, there have been critics of their apologetics. But really, you have to make mountains out of molehills to criticize an….INTELLECTUAL! Why do you think they are so dangerous to you? ha. They are as smart or smarter than you and they are humbly serving the living God! Amen.

The only thing you can criticize gentlemen such as these is the fact that they have faith. And faith is not something a scientist can bottle, catalog, or verify by earthly means. But there are more where these came from.

So anyway, take it and chew on it. If you are sitting on the fence, investigate it. Either way, you got my prayers and support. I'll just keep on loving you intellectual heathen, to the end. grin

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Posted: 08 April 2005 12:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]  
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[quote author=“TheChampion”]Ok, since I already told fence sitter about this guy, guess I should go through with this post. I had it mulling around in my mind anyway.

OK, just a quick note, I did check out the site and had a glance at the DOES SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE TODAY SHOW THAT GOD CREATED
THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH?  AND WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY
ABOUT WHEN HE CREATED? article. I do believe in a creator in a sense that something can’t come from nothing, but that doesn’t mean I should believe in a Christian God. Every culture has their own beliefs towards the creator, and unfortunately all these cultures believe that their beliefs are the only correct ones. WHY WHY WHY! This is the problem that Sam Harris is referring to. NOBODY KNOWS WHO OR WHAT THE TRUE CREATOR IS AND THERE IS NOTHING THAT IT, HE, OR SHE EXPECTS FROM US OTHER THAN .... And here it is Champ, I’ve been saving it up… TO LIVE

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Posted: 08 April 2005 12:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]  
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What does God expect from us. Regardless, we’ve all got a date with the Creator. We came from dust and to dust we shall go, whether we like it or not. Your question is very philosophical and interesting to answer. I wouldn’t call myself an expert, I wouldn’t pretend to know as much as Annkerberg, but I do know that God has expectations from a Christian. Not that you can’t fulfill them without him. But he does expect the believer to try and act a certain.

Expectations for the non-believer? Off the top of my head, I would say that God has given this total free will to man. Man can set his own rules if he likes. But God will send trouble his way to try and make man look to God for the answers. Man has limits and his life is finite. Man will pass away and his life will be a memory, if he is lucky. Ya know, along that line of thinking, it just galls me that man would reject the living God. Reminds me of a teenager who lives in his parents house, eats his parents food, needs his parents to supply his needs so he can go to school, have cloths, etc. And then the teenager rebels in his parents home, wanting to make his own decisions and such. The parents eventually go, ok, have at it. The kid goes out and makes some big mistakes. Then blames the parent. The parent says, I pleaded with ya, gave you instructions, displined ya, instructed ya, how can you blame me. Regardless, I’m the parent, I’m going to pick you up, dust you off, clean you up, give you a fresh start, help you with the bills. Just listen next time. I love ya kid.

We humans, though some scornfully lash out at God, God made them dependent on him anyway. You must have food 3 or 4 times a day or your body will be wreck, you’ll be in pain. Your body is in constant need and yet, it still ages and eventually it breaks down. Yet, man will scorn God as if he could master his own body on his own. As if he had no such thing as appetite. But appetite is just another way of God saying that, though I made you wonderfully and fearfully, you still need me, every day.

Just rambling. But aren’t the signs everywhere around you?

Don’t forget, Jesus said, no man comes to the father except by me. He said he is the way the truth and the life. Check out all his claims, give it a trial run. See what happens. Give him your life. Then let him be the guide.

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Posted: 08 April 2005 03:41 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]  
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[quote author=“TheChampion”]Reminds me of a teenager who lives in his parents house, eats his parents food, needs his parents to supply his needs so he can go to school, have cloths, etc. And then the teenager rebels in his parents home, wanting to make his own decisions and such. The parents eventually go, ok, have at it. The kid goes out and makes some big mistakes. Then blames the parent. The parent says, I pleaded with ya, gave you instructions, displined ya, instructed ya, how can you blame me. Regardless, I’m the parent, I’m going to pick you up, dust you off, clean you up, give you a fresh start, help you with the bills. Just listen next time. I love ya kid.

Is this what it was like for you when you moved out of your parents house? Blaming your parents for your own screw ups? (Don’t answer that.)

Interesting analogy, but I’m confused on some points. By the way, I’m pretty sure that your god is supposed to be the parents in your analogy. Please correct me if I misunderstood.

Are you saying that parents are supposed to give their children a book that gives them exact instructions on how to live their lives and if they disobey any of the instructions, then they will be disowned and left out on the street to suffer?

Are you saying that children are supposed to obey their parents without question even after they move out?

You say that god (the parents) says simply “Just listen next time. I love ya kid.” This sounds like something real parents would say, but it is quite clear from christian mythology that what god really says amounts to “Too bad. Go to hell. (Literally.)”

If your god were my parent, then I would have moved out by my 12th birthday, and good riddance.

[quote author=“TheChampion”]
Don’t forget, Jesus said, no man comes to the father except by me. He said he is the way the truth and the life. Check out all his claims, give it a trial run. See what happens. Give him your life. Then let him be the guide.

Yes. Check out all his claims.

- Bulldog

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Posted: 08 April 2005 04:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]  
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Do I fear Christian apoligists?  NO!  This is what I fear, those people who follow this:

Genesis 22:2,10 “And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and ... offer him there for a burnt offering…. And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.”

2 Chr.15:13 “Whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.”

Gen.19:32-36 Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose. Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose. Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father.

Lev.26:29 “And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat.”

1 Cor.14:34-36 “Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.”

1 Tim.2:11-15 “Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing

Mk.16:17-18 “And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.”

Jas.5:14-15 “Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up.”

Dt.23:2 “A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD.”

1 Sam.15:2-3 “Thus saith the LORD of hosts ... Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.”

Dt.21:18-21 “If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.”

You can follow him if you want to, I would rather not!

William

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Posted: 08 April 2005 04:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]  
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[quote author=“William”]Do I fear Christian apoligists?  NO!  This is what I fear, those people who follow this:

I would fear them too, but do they actually follow these particular scriptures? I don’t think they do. Why don’t they? As I have said before, they take the WORD OF GOD and mold it to suite their own lifestyles. Should not the basdardizing the WORD OF GOD be considered the epitome of sin or “wrongness”? Should we not fear these people for that reason. And worse still, the religious basdardizations (or interpretations if you will) conducted by the mountain of denominations are deemed by each denomination to be the only way, to be the WORD OF GOD, however misconstrued.

This fence is hurting my ass.

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Posted: 08 April 2005 04:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]  
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My biggest fear of Christianity is not what will happen while I am still alive, but decades or centuries after I’m gone. If the religious right ever manages to sufficiently rewrite our constitution to suit their views, we’ll probably have public stoning and many of the other horrors William wisely points out above. I say this with confidence because lessons drawn from the holy Bible offer at least as many opportunities for torture and senseless murder as the Koran does.

I have no fear of the Christian parent who teaches her children to turn the other cheek, not to gossip, shoplift, lie, etc. Such an upbringing is essential whether or not deities are brought into the picture.

What is abhorrent to me is the out-of-breath evangelizing stance of “I know the truth, and you are doomed unless you listen up, fool.”

Dave

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Posted: 08 April 2005 05:03 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]  
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They can take everything out of context if they want to, but the message of Christ is love and sacrifice. Christ’s message is love…For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.. John 3:16-18.

Not that is not so hard to understand, is it? Ahhh, but it continues with more wisdom…and explains why these intellectuals dare not convert:
This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God.  John 3:19-21

So you see, truth is, you ever notice that someone can mention another religion in a room and nobody flinches. But somebody mentions that he loves Jesus and everyone looks like they just smelled a rotten egg. There you have your answer. But don’t fret, Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. 1 John 4:4.

So stop sitting on the fence and get on with your faith based adventure. You’ll be glad ya did! grin

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Posted: 08 April 2005 05:16 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]  
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OFF TOPIC

[quote author=“TheChampion”]
This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God.  John 3:19-21

Yes. This explains why the Bush administration is so secretive.

Cheney still won’t reveal any information about his meeting on energy policy. There’s a guy who really hates the light.

When is W going to come into the light?

- Bulldog

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Posted: 08 April 2005 05:25 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]  
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So stop sitting on the fence and get on with your faith based adventure. You’ll be glad ya did! grin

Suppose I did and the first bit of scripture I follow is Psalm 119:9 - “And how can a young man keep his way pure? By living according to your word.”

Soooo…. who should I stone first? Perhaps I should stone myself as I’ve broken several of the 10 commandments already. Would stoning myself count as suicide? Would you stone me if I asked you to? Would that be considered killing? Sure would keep this fence from hurting my ass.

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Posted: 09 April 2005 10:03 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]  
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They can take everything out of context if they want to

Our of context?  OUT OF CONTEXT??

I was very careful to include the entire salient passage in those I posted.  What you like to talk about, Champion, is the carrot.  I posted the stick!  Don’t try and tell me that you disavow those passages.  They are as much a part of your religion as Genisis and John.

What really rankles about you Christians is that you will go around, like you do, with love, forgivness, sweetness and light, and just as soon as you are in charge, here comes the OT!  It has happened too many times in history for anyone with a brain to ignore it!  How many “witches” has Christianity burned?  How much further would science be if it was’nt for your damn myths!

Don’t cry “out of context,” unless you want to disavow the entire OT.  It is there, you can’t ignore it any more than you can ignore the witchburnings, murders, crusades (we are still paying the price for), and the rest of the atrocities perpetrated upon humanity in the name of the cross.

William

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Posted: 09 April 2005 10:52 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]  
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[quote author=“William”]

They can take everything out of context if they want to

Yes “they” sure can Champ, they meaning YOU, and as I did in my previous post. Point being; taking things out of context is the easy way out. It is a way aroung the actual truth (no matter how terrifying that truth may be). fear=religion

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Posted: 09 April 2005 12:41 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]  
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Fencesitter, I shan’t apologize for any misconstrued scriptures that somebody pulls out of a hat. God had his reasons for every one of them. However, the overall message of the bible is love. Praying for your enemies, reaching out to the lost, sacrifice, giving to the poor. Nobody can dispute the Judeo-Christian ethic. They only thing they can dispute is faith and the validity of the scriptures.

There have been intellectuals over the centuries, who’ve come up with some very clever and subtle ways to contradict the bible and to sow confusion and doubt among the faithful. It really hasn’t worked. The more one investigates the bible, the more in love with Jesus they fall.

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Posted: 09 April 2005 01:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]  
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However, the overall message of the bible is love.

The overall message of the bible seems to me more like gods wrath, and the horrors that will happen to us if we don’t love.

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Posted: 09 April 2005 01:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]  
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[q]We came from dust and to dust we shall go, whether we like it or not.[/q]

this is almost true, only its mostly water.

how about we start holding this one up

“It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven”

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Posted: 09 April 2005 02:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]  
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Fencesitter, I shan’t apologize for any misconstrued scriptures that somebody pulls out of a hat.

Dt.21:18-21 “If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.”

Champ, you are choosing to ignore me.  I don’t really blame you, I’m not exactly “on message” as far as you are concerned.  Tell me, Champ, where is the “love” in the charming OT quote above?

Please don’t say it is “out of context” or “out of a hat” for it is neither.  It is directly out of the King James Bible, chapter and verse.  I say again, you are presenting only the carrot and ignoring it stick.  You say Jesus is love, I say the trinity, or whatever you call it these days, is nothing but a sham. 

The Abrahamic religions, IMHO, have been, and continue to be, the greatest threat to anything living on this planet.  As I said above, the moment you are in charge, the burning starts, first the books, than the people.  You don’t care about the planet, ‘cause the rapture’s coming anyway.

There are a growing number of us who see through the BS, and will no
longer tolerate your blatent attempts to turn this country into a theocracy.  Contrary to what the Christians are trying hard to make “common knowledge,”  this country most definately NOT founded on Christian principals!  Our founders made sure of that, in several different ways.  And it is a damn good thing they did.  If you doubt that, see my post above.  That, not the NT, is the foundation of the Christian religion, and it is amusing to watch you run from it as fast as you can.

Out of context indeed! 

William

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