I shan’t apologize for any misconstrued scriptures that somebody pulls out of a hat. God had his reasons for every one of them.
Champ, I know you’re smart enough to get this point: It doesn’t matter what the context is, or who is doing any sort of misconstruing. The fact is that when ancient scriptures are allowed to dominate any society, instructions of horror on a massive scale tend to prevail.
[quote author=“William”]Champ, you are choosing to ignore me.
You’re right and I totally sympathise with you here. That is TC’s modus operandi. I’ve come to the conclusion that his posts to this forum are a form of masturbation for him. Pure self-gratification. For all his big talk of love and brotherhood, he’s just here to get his rocks off.
I’ve decided to just ignore him from now on, just as he ignores everyone else. He is blinded by his own self-righteousness. If he ever starts to entertain doubts about his faith, his pride will never allow him to admit it in this forum anyway. Any intelligent arguments you make will fall on deaf ears.
TC isn’t worth getting worked up about. Just some unsolicited advice from a someone who can relate.
Iisbliss, you said: ‘how about we start holding this one up, “It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven”’
That one is too easy. You should know this one, as an intellectual and all. (I think you guys spend too much time on physics and not enough time on the author of physics…sic, )
Cities in biblical times would be surrounded by high walls, as protection from invaders. At various points in the wall were small entrances upon which you could enter into the city. These were called the eye of the needle. The eye of a needle was only large enough to fit a camel. You had to remove your stuff, which was stored on top of the camels those days, then get the camel through, get your junk, then pack it back on the camel and on your way. A rich man, however, would have to unload many camels, which would be a real pain in the kisser. Get the point? Not impossible, but not as easy.
William, not trying to ignore you. I’v already covered that area in my original topic, “page 18 and already a eyebrow raising error.” If you peruse that thread, the gospel is laid out and many questions answered, including how to interpret the OT and how it fits in today’s world. Please go there and then let me know what you think, ok.
Tyhts: Agreed! See above and we’ll fix this problem for you.
Bulldog:, yes, you are certainly true to your name. I appreciate the intensity of your posts. Don’t write me off, ok. Bless you my canine friend.
Bulldog, you’re right. When I first came across Champion, I assumed, as I do with most everyone I come across, that he was an honorable sort. That is—I mistakenly thought that he would respond to valid ideas and arguments whether or not they bolstered his faith. But I quickly realized that Champion has a mental disorder (sorry to say this so publicly). He will not engage in any argument that makes logically-based conclusions if they betray his scriptures as being antiquated. Here’s what might be happening in his thoughts: “Oh-oh—I see Satan. Time to get out of here because my faith is in jeopardy if I continue arguing with this person.” It’s frustrating because I tend to want to finish a dialog rather than see it get abandoned, but I understand something about Champion’s mental illness.
I still love Champion, because I have friends and relatives who share his mental disorder, and they are wonderful people. I hope that’s not too hard to believe, because it’s true.
I’ll still participate in dialogs with TC because I like the way his nonsense gets exposed to the light of this brilliant panel of thinkers who comment here, and I’m honored to be among such company. I suspect that lots of people have read these posts without themselves posting anything.
Iisbliss, think about it. Let’s say I am a preacher and I don’t make a lot of money, and when I do have money I’ve got 5 preacher friends on the mission field in Africa and South America, who I would love to give a few bucks to, so they could feed their kids, etc.
So the guy does not have a lot of money. He writes a book worth of material which he believes will help folks in a certain way. How does he get it from his pc to the market? Will the printing company give him a bye? Will the US Postal Service say, no problem, ship it free. Will the smart-alecky kid (a future intellectual, no doubt) working on his website work for free?
The wheels of business in this world only turn when greased with money. So don’t fault a preacher for selling a book, I’m sure he needs to eat like we do, I’m sure he’d like to send a couple of bucks or a nice gift to his friends, like we do. I’m sure he needs to keep a roof over his head, like we do. Etc. etc…..(I don’t think you’ll see Annkerberg or McDowell driving around in an Italian sports car, or wearing a $2k suit…).
Champ, I don’t think anyone here objects to preachers making a buck. They do somewhat of a service, and deserve to get paid for it. Here is the thing I have a minor issue with:
Most people realize that if a Police Officer starts extorting money from those he should be protecting, or, if an authority figure takes advantage of another person in any manner, that crime is looked upon in a more serious light than, for instance, if a known criminal performs the same crime. Every single thing that so-called religious people do that takes advantage of those who would trust them is looked upon that way.
There are evil people in all walks of life, but cops and preachers get held to the strictest standards. And, IMHO, that is exactly the way it should be! Therefore, when I go to a web site, and see what Iisbliss saw, I tend to judge, and I think many do. I’m not saying that my judgements are always justified, but they happen none the less.
We all know about the excesses of the TV evangelistists, the Bakers, and their ilk. There are hundreds more travelling preachers, putting on revivals all over the south all summer long. Millions and millions are collected weekly, and not a heck of a lot of it ever feeds the hungry, or cures the sick. A lot of what goes on at these things is pure fraud!
When one is not brainwashed, one sees these things, and it colors our attitudes. If you could see these things as we do, it would color yours too. By the way, about those preacher friends in Africa, etc. They are over there killing people, as far as I am concerned! Refusing to talk about, or issue condoms in countries with high rates of AIDS infection should be a capitol offense! I know it is government policy, but it sucks!
Consider this, Champ, there is a religion in this country that will not allow it’s adherants to partake of ANY medical attention, not even for a dying child! What if this were the law of the land, would you support it? I think not. Why, then, can’t you understand that whenever ANY religion’s dogma or myth is enacted into law it is a step towards bondage? This is true no matter how cleverly it is concealed.
Things are starting to swing back the other way, I am beginning to see the signs. Speaking for myself, I have no problem with anyone practicing their religion. There are plenty of Gods to choose from, and all kinds of dogma. Pick one, and pray your brains out, I don’t care. I will fight in any way I can, however, to keep your dogma the HELL out of the public arena, and out of my life!
[quote author=“bulldog”]TC isn’t worth getting worked up about.
I think people tend to get “worked up” far too easily in general, quite frankly. It’s not just true regarding TC, but in my experience also most things people get worked up over. It seems pretty self-indulgent/egocentric to me—as if how we feel should have some impact on the external world, as if reality should comply with our personal sensiblities, and the emotional response seems to be caused by the dissonance between that ideology and the fact that reality is indifferent to us and our ideologies (or sense or right and wrong and justice and such).
In other words, most people never really quite seem to learn that “life’s not fair.”
You’re right, bad things happen to good people. Life is not fair. Thank God we have an advocate in Jesus Christ, who constantly prays for us on our behalf. Also, thank God we have the comforter in the Holy Spirit, leading and guiding us to truth.
I heard a preacher on the radio the other day. His sermon was centered around some scripture out of Palms. It was very enlightening, but so very true. The gist of it was that he who has clean hands will gain strength and he who does not will lose strength. Clean hands as in sin, he who keeps his way clean and sins not. Think of a person who strives to live a pure life, doe this not strengthen you? Tack on the time spend doing good deeds of helping the poor, spending time on reflection with prayer, etc. Contrast this with a person whose priorities are out of whack, cheating on their spouse, cheating on taxes, getting drunk, over eating, etc. This type of person will lose strength in the long run.
We’re talking spiritual and mental, not just physical. No wonder God calls us to live Holy.
I am a late-comer to this discussion, as I’m just now finishing Mr. Harris’ book.
The benefits of such literature as The End of Faith falter only in the unavoidable blindness of the faithful, who have the most to gain from contemplating the questions the book poses. “Champion” is the quintessential example; when the absurdities of faith are fully imbibed, the capacity for reason is limited.
The universe of someone like Champion is much smaller than that of a truly reasoning person, as, to him, God is always the Ultimate. Thus it is impossible to accept alternate explanations, however based in reality they may be.
What is more astounding is that, even after confronting Mr. Harris’ book, such people can still justify the endless stream of contradictions that any religion presents. To embrace the nice, happy quotes attributed to Jesus and thus decide that Judeo-Christianity is solely a message of peace is to disregard, both in the Old Testament and the New, a substantial portion of the “Word of God.” As this is well addressed in the book, I don’t suppose I need to belabor the point here.
Just as a drug addict may find “Salvation” through trading narcotics for Jesus, a Believer may replace Faith with Reason. It is a similar act of abandoning that which has dominated one’s life for something less hazardous. The difference is, Reason gives answers that endure scrutiny. So, for the deistic among us, a thorough childhood indoctrination need not be irreversible. But the courage to abandon that which gives such simple comfort requires bravery and support.
If one such as Champion can ultimately only defend his/her thoughts with scriptural references, he or she would do best to further consider the conceptual basis for Reason. Basing “reasonable” arguments on faulty premises is self-contradictory. If we are to reason, we must truly reason—and that is the only way to attempt to communicate.
If one writes an analytical essay and cites only one, very old reference, any decent professor would give a very poor grade.
Champion is the extraordinary type of “thinker” who feels strongly that rational thought and action lead one toward Hell. He may not say so in these exact words, but I can assure you that people of his brand of religiosity abhor reason. Hence, they don’t even try to use it.