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All in the name of a god….
Posted: 14 April 2005 03:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]  
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I WANT NO PART OF A GOD WHO CALLS IT A SIN WHEN TWO HUMAN BEINGS LOVE EACH OTHER, OR MAKE LOVE TO EACH OTHER!!  WHO THE HELL DO YOU THINK YOU ARE, YOU SELF-RIGHTOUS SON-OF-A-BITCH!!!

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Posted: 14 April 2005 06:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]  
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Just following the words of the instruction manual, the bible. Does that upset you? Sorry, don’t mean to upset you. But I can’t whitewash the teachings, can I? Wouldn’t that be a loss of integrity?

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Posted: 15 April 2005 12:22 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]  
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But I can’t whitewash the teachings, can I?


All you do is whitewash the damn teachings, otherwise you would be recommending that our friend nomoresilence be taken out and stoned. Stop molding the teacings to fit your own lifestyle. If you were a real Christian you would take everything in the bible literally. Now go and find some damn scripture that counters what I’ve written. GO, run along now thumper.

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Posted: 15 April 2005 07:41 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]  
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Champ, I’m glad you have read my post and the compassionate replies and encouragement I have received.  From your reply though, I wonder if you really understand the humanness of this?

I am a living, breathing human being who happens to be a homosexual.  I am not a statistic or a nameless/faceless entity.  I am a human being with flesh and blood and emotions and the need to be loved and accepted…just like you.

What do you, and your god, think I should do?

NMS

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Posted: 15 April 2005 07:57 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]  
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Repent, of course!

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Posted: 15 April 2005 07:59 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]  
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Hi NoMoreSilence, I have to say that I sense a lot of pain in your writing. True or not, I would say there are different types of pain. One being, the pain of rejection. I have felt this pain in my life a few times. I know how bad it feels to be rejected by others, or even having the mere possibility that it could happen, that too can be frustrating.

I am not a professional, although my first major in school was Christian Ministry (I never did pursue the Priesthood, the ministry, or anything like that), so it would be difficult for me to give you counsel on what to do. I think it is a more touchy subject than others. People have feelings and I certainly do not want to hurt them by slamming a bible over their heads. A better way is to sit down with a pro, such as a reputable Priest or Pastor, and let them gently lay out the program. Then you can decide what you want to do.

The important thing is that God loves you regardless of what you have done or said in the past. The measure of forgiveness, mercy, and love that God has for us hard to contemplate. I know the measurement is as far as the east is from the west, and then some. God is aware of every molecule in your body. He knows your heart, he knows your faults, your shortcomings, like the rest of us. So don’t give up, never give up. I know I have at times grown cold and left God behind, but there always comes a day, when strange coincidents occur, and you know that you know God is trying to get ahold of your attention. And when he does, it usually means he wants to restore your soul and set you on a path of joy in knowing him. So please, do go and see the pro’s, and take your time with it.

I’ll keep you at the top of the prayer list! grin

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Posted: 15 April 2005 09:59 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]  
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Champ, thank you for your ‘kinder, gentler’ reply.

Pain?  Oh yea, there’s tons of pain not only in my writing, but in ME, as a human being.  It goes BEYOND pain to actual fear of what the religious zealots will do to me and to people like me who don’t fit neatly within the social guidelines of their infallable doctrines.

When will they stop telling me and who I can and cannot love?

When you pray for me, what do you pray for?  Do you ask your god to make me a heterosexual?  I used to pray that for sooooo many years; quite often in horrible anguish and tears.  It would work for a few days maybe; I would hurt myself every time I had ‘impure’ thoughts about another man.  But, in the end, I was still attracted to men. 

Will your god listen to you more than he did me?  Was I praying the wrong way for all those years?  Was I asking for the wrong things?

Champ, I have a partner of almost 7 years who I love with all my heart.  We live together, sleep together, play together, fix dinner together…not really, he does most of the cooking wink, take care of our cats, feed the sick by taking meals to them every week because they are too sick and/or poor to make their own meals.  We take care of our house and try keep our neighborhood a nice place to live.

Is all of that wrong because I’m doing it with another man?  Does it make it less valid in your god’s eyes?  Do I need to abandon him and live alone for the rest of my life?  Won’t that cause a lot of pain for him AND me?  Should I pretend to be heterosexual and marry a woman, but never want/have sex?  Is that really fair to her?

Those 3000 gay, married couples in Oregon were just stripped of their marriage licenses yesterday.  If that happened to me, I think it would cause a LOT of pain knowing that my 7 year relationship, and in some of their cases 30 year relationship, doesn’t mean ANYTHING in the eyes of the government.  That if I got sick or was injured, that my caring, loving husband could be completely barred from seeing me in the hospital or making decisions for me.  That just doesn’t seem right to me.  I would WANT him to make all those decisions….he is my partner, my husband.  I have entrusted my life to him.  What would your god want to have happen?

Champ, you are such an expert on so many things.  I have read all of your posts.  You have such a wide range and deep knowledge about your god, your bible, evolution, political parties, political candidates, education, biology, and human and primate physiology.  You speak so authoritatively on ALL of those subjects.  Surely, on a matter that is so clearly black and white in your eyes, you can tell me what I should do.  I have asked many, many ‘pros’, ie. pastors and christian counsellors, they all told me to ‘pray about it’.  I DID….nothing happened except that I felt worse and worse about myself because I was still gay!

This ‘program’ you talked about….what is it?  I lived the model Christian life since the day I was born….but I am STILL gay.

For now, I am going to go home to my wonderful husband , give him a ‘honey I’m home’ kiss, hug him, tell him I love him, and feel safe and secure knowing that he loves me too.  Sounds like a pretty perfect evening to me.

NMS

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Posted: 15 April 2005 11:35 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]  
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Well, what a moving and compassionate string of readings on this post.  For another gay contributor to this forum like me it is definitely encouraging to see the empathic and even congratulatory reactions from the host of regulars we have come to know and admire on this site.  There is obviously overwhelming support and acceptance of difference by our fellow earthdwellers and very insiteful comments.  Then, TChamp comes on line and here we go again with the SIN (oh, yes, we are all sinners) and the pointing “this is BAD in the eyes of god” rhetoric.  I guess it’s no surprise, really.  Yet when asked to offer advice, he seems altogether shy and carefully hides behind scripture (not the authentic one, mindyou, but just those passages that agree with his view - seems afraid of the stoning instructions).  So, while we are all waiting in anticipation of what TChamp is going to advise NMS should do - we will proabably never hear anything of real compassion or empathy or humanity come from the bible thumper.  If that doesn’t show us his true colors, nothing further will suffice.

In my eyes, TChamp has committed a SIN against humanity with his stance and I suggest that we send him off to Cameroon, Africa where he will be forced to take two weeks of video footage of a tribe of bonobos.  Maybe he can be taught something from our (and that means his as well) nearest relatives.  It appears that bonobos greet strangers to their troop, not by aggression and violence, but by sex - with as many of the higher matriarchs as possible (hetero and homo sex that is BTW).  How do they solve fractious behaviour within the troop - with sex.  How do they solve heirachical disruptions - with sex.  How do they teach children to respect others - by “simulated” sexual actions.  How do the correct family disputes - sex.  Well, I guess we know the whole story.  Oddly enough, when compared to their chimpanzee cousins, the bonobos are a peace-loving people - their society has no infanticide, no homocide, no violence.  Maybe TChamp will really find god when he spends those two weeks in a natural, Eden-like garden with his digital camera in the presence of these loving and passionate primates.

Bob

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Posted: 15 April 2005 11:36 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]  
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NoMoreSilence, congratulations on your openness. Don’t take any crap from Champion. I’m sorry you had such a terrible church experience, and I suspect that having had that kind of experience makes you vulnerable.

I don’t know what part of the country you live in, and of course it’s easy to find bigotry anywhere. I live in Manhattan. About three blocks from me there’s a lovely Episcopal church, one of the oldest churches in the city, which holds three crowded services every Sunday, and which has a very large openly gay membership. Everybody is welcome in this church, and judging by the crowds streaming in and out of it, every kind of person of every imaginable skin tone, age group, or whatever seems to feel at home, loved and accepted there.

I know this is not unique to the Episcopalians, either. I’ve been reading that the Evangelical Lutheran church is considering whether to have openly gay bishops, as the Episcopal church does. Christian churches that really want to be Christian and really want to practice the teachings of Jesus know that exclusion and bigotry are not exactly acceptable Christian practices.

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Posted: 15 April 2005 12:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]  
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NMS wrote:

For now, I am going to go home to my wonderful husband , give him a ‘honey I’m home’ kiss, hug him, tell him I love him, and feel safe and secure knowing that he loves me too. Sounds like a pretty perfect evening to me.

What, no hockey?  There’s nothing perfect about an evening without hockey !  I’m new to playing the game, just finished my second year with 40 other hockey moms who never got the chance to play as kids.  We’re obsessed I tell you, on the ice two-three nights a week.  The only downer was when I got my first penalty and had to wave at my kids from the box ... smile 

Ah, well, try to have a nice weekend anyway ...

Susan

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Posted: 16 April 2005 06:38 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]  
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Champion, you’re really too much. You don’t know how to frame what you have to say? You’re concerned about not being a professional counsellor? If your posting weren’t so perverse, I’d laugh.

I’m going to take a guess at why you’re reluctant to slap NoMore with your brand of validity. It’s because he has the ability to express his life situation with emotion. I have no doubt that you empathized with his situation because of his ability to express himself about his keen pain.

Champion, not everyone has the ability to express themselves so eloquently. Those people, I would propose, are those who you go after. If NoMoreSilence had verbally drooled about his situation rather than expressing himself beautifully, you’d have pulled out one holy quote after another, perhaps closing with a therapeutic stoning instruction.

But I hope you stay on this site, anyway, and that’s my heresy for the day.

Dave

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Posted: 16 April 2005 12:50 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]  
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Lets have the quotes champ, and not from the OT = )

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Posted: 17 April 2005 06:33 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]  
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NoMoreSilence,

The fact that TheChampion has declined to reply to your post speaks for itself.  So be it.

I am neither a psychologist nor a professional counsellor, so I would not presume to give you such advice.  But as one sentient being to another, I would like to share my thoughts with you. 

I sense your pain is too great to be relieved by advice or counselling from anyone; instead it is something that must come from within yourself.  Your explanation of your life in the church speaks volumes.  To have anything so ingrained in your psyche since birth would naturally have it become a part of who you are, and very obviously a large and critical part.  You stated in your original post that you no longer have need of the church.  I ask you to rethink that.  Perhaps you no longer need that particular church with it’s hateful bigotry, but in rejecting it, you are also having to reject a sense of who you are.  Does that make sense to you?  If I were in your shoes, I would certainly feel a great loss of identity.

Your comment also lead me to believe you have sought primary counsel from the system you were familiar with (pastors and christian counsellors).  Isn’t that self-defeating?  If your God created you, wouldn’t he have expected you to be who you are?  I am not a Christian, but if I were, I would accept God’s choice in creating me above any man‘s idea of what they believe to be the mind of God.   

What if, instead of seeking counsel for how you can fit into the church, you seek counsel for how the church can fit with you?  I agree wholeheartedly with MJ’s comments about finding a church that welcomes you as an individual, rather than pass judgment on any person according to it’s own archaic, dogmatic creed.

Christianity in this country is much more diverse than even most Christians realize.  They tend to live within their own small segment of church affiliation, and don’t explore other churches and belief systems.  There are many churches who teach brotherhood and acceptance and love without incorporating judgment and bigotry.  Another church you might consider in addition to MJ’s references is the Unitarian Church.  Although it may not incorporate the amount of ritual that you were used to, it does welcome all beings who cross it’s threshold, regardless of belief system or diversity of culture.  I would also recommend it as an initial, no-risk experience.  Acceptance of gays is actually a part of their doctrine.  You would be in the presence of a very intelligent and well educated community.  (Many of those highly esteemed and wise forefathers of our country were Unitarians.)   

So if religion remains a part of your identity, why not explore churches with an open mind? If you are not comfortable with one, simply leave.  (It might help to sit at the back of the church).  smile  I know of no church which locks the doors during a service.

You have support from friends and the love of your partner.  Why not explore possibilities to reconnect to the deep inner needs of your nature?  You might find those needs fulfilled by a church, or simply by religion sans church, or you might choose a totally different path.  I think only you can find those answers, but finding places of social acceptance could be the foundation for a personal fulfillment based not on others’ beliefs, but on understanding and following your own personal integrity.

I wish you well in your choices.

Maggie

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Posted: 17 April 2005 08:07 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]  
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Maggie, believe it or not, I agree that some churches have a lot to offer their members. And it’s true that some Christian denominations attempt to live up to the high standards of Jesus of Nazareth. Churches in those demoninations accept people for who they are. I see Jesus as having been a precocious child and ingenious young man who sought to reform much of what was thought to be holy while he was alive. If he were with us today, no doubt he’d target Champion-style fundamentalism with the commitment and enthusiasm he showed in his attacks on Pharisees and Sadducees of his day. My guess is that he’d leave the above-mentioned denominations alone.

Unfortunately, many more churches today focus their energy in hateful directions instead of what is positive and helpful. Their pastors sort through all the myriad sins described in the Bible and largely ignore them—except for those “sins” that personally repel them. Why homosexuality repels these church leaders seems obvious to me, but I prefer not to get too speculative.

Dave

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Posted: 19 April 2005 05:11 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]  
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Well, I’m disappointed that I didn’t get any answers, to my really basic questions, from the resident forum expert on the Christian God.  But, I really didn’t expect any….I know how he thinks.

First off, CanZen…..you’re brilliant…..you must have a very big brain! wink  Glad to know there’s another ‘two-spirits’ member here.

MJ, I’m in Denver…..yup, and ground-zero for the hate-mongers is just an hour south in Colorado Springs with the vile Focus On the Family headquarters.  Anyway, there is an MCC here (Metropolitan Community Church….predominantly gay)....I haven’t attended, but maybe that’s a new growth point for me…...

Ras…..one month until summer hockey league starts…..woohoo!!! wink

Peregrine, time for your own talk-show!  I think the title should be “How to be a Human Being.”  Your points are soooo right on and just plain HUMAN.  Props to you, and a big thank you hug!

I’m glad you all took time to read and digest and respond.  Your encouragement and good thoughts speak volumes about your character, your ability to reach out and be a free-thinking HUMAN.

What’s disappointing and, frankly, sad, is that Champ has not shown the ability, or desire, to answer the really basic questions of his faith.  He has the ability to be an automaton by quoting the thoughts of everybody else (scripture, so called christian ‘scientists’, right wing radio hosts and pastors), but he has absolutely NO ability to think for himself.  He has demonstrated no ability to deal with the realities of life.

There is a cautious saying in the fundamentalist churches, “You can be so heavenly minded,  that you are of no earthly good.”  Champ, you’ve personified that statement.

That was a huge point of me posting this thread here.  I KNOW what his mindset is, and what his capabilities are and aren’t…..I used to be just like him.

What I have learned from my experiences in the church, and more so from being OUT of the church is that “Jesus” is NOT the answer to anything.  “Jesus” is simply an excuse for abandoning personal responsibility and personal growth.

People like Champ aren’t REALLY interested in other people’s earthly well-being.  They are all about ‘storing up treasures in heaven’.  ‘Saving’ as many souls as they can….not because the souls matter to them, but because of the reward they think they’re going to get when they get to heaven.  If they really were interested in the downtrodden, the sick and the poor, they would do all of the kind things that ‘people of faith’ are supposed to do, without the ruse of a god in front of them, or as a way to evangelize the weak for selfish purposes.

I know I’m preachin’ to the choir here on a lot of this.  But we are here to share what’s on our minds in hopes of grasping the true nature of our world, and our universe.

Reading the posts here, helps me daily to push myself into a better understanding of the world we live in by really SEEING it through my own eyes and not the haze of myth, or just what someone has told me it looks like.

A lifetime of being in the Christian church, did not provide me the answers I need.  Only when I began thinking for myself, did I find the truth and the answers I needed.

I encourage every one of you to ‘work out your own salvation’.  If that means attending a universalist or science-of-the-mind’ church, do it.  If that means reading thought provoking books like “The End of Faith”, do it.  If that means studying the history of the world to see how we got to where we are today, do it.  If that means writing your OWN music, do it!


NMS

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