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Posted: 24 April 2005 12:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]  
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[quote author=“TheChampion”]
Poll: 63% of Americans think Bible literally true.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43957

Champ, I fully agree with you…....This is truly a very sad commentary on the intelligence level and rationality of the average American and of Christian believers in particular.

The fact that 63% of Americans believe something for which there is overwhelming objective and verifiable evidence that it is not true should make us all fear for the future of our country and the welfare of our children and grandchildren.

These disturbing statistics indicate that we have “dumbed down” our society to the point where our ability to compete in the world will (at least) be greatly impaired if not fatally destroyed.

I fear that we may already be beyond the “tipping point” and may have lost our ability to recover from the brink of total societal stupidity.

Perhaps we should all join you and your fundy religious crazies and pray for The Rapture to save us from this mess ASAP!!

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Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful…..Lucius Annaeus Seneca, Roman (3 BC - 65 AD)

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Posted: 24 April 2005 01:41 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]  
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[quote author=“Conservative Atheist”][quote author=“TheChampion”]
Poll: 63% of Americans think Bible literally true.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43957

Champ, I fully agree with you…....This is truly a very sad commentary on the intelligence level and rationality of the average American and of Christian believers in particular.

The fact that 63% of Americans believe something for which there is overwhelming objective and verifiable evidence that it is not true should make us all fear for the future of our country and the welfare of our children and grandchildren.

These disturbing statistics indicate that we have “dumbed down” our society to the point where our ability to compete in the world will (at least) be greatly impaired if not fatally destroyed.

I fear that we may already be beyond the “tipping point” and may have lost our ability to recover from the brink of total societal stupidity.

Perhaps we should all join you and your fundy religious crazies and pray for The Rapture to save us from this mess ASAP!!

***
I suggest starting a religious war between Islam and Xianity.  Kind of like the 2nd Planet of the Apes movie where the remaining humans wouldn’t directly kill, but would make others do the killing (via mind control).

JL

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Posted: 24 April 2005 01:50 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]  
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But JL, how astute of you to suggest a solution which is already a given.  Isn’t this the current state of the world?

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Posted: 24 April 2005 03:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]  
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From the National Council of Churches:

  Disagreeing Without Demonizing
NCC General Secretary Challenges Planners of ‘Justice Sunday’ for Attacking Fellow Christians
A partisan political campaign to change the Senate filibuster rules has taken a detour through church-state territory, and NCC General Secretary Bob Edgar has challenged the tactics as “dangerous and divisive” to the nation’s religious and public life. In a statement issued Tuesday, Edgar says:

“We are surprised and grieved by a campaign launched this week by Family Research Council and Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, who said that those who disagree Bob Edgar, General Secretary of the National Council of Churches USAwith them on President Bush’s judicial nominees are ‘against people of faith.’

“This campaign, which they are calling ‘Justice Sunday,’ should properly be called ‘Just-Us’ Sunday. Their attempt to impose on the entire country a narrow, exclusivist, private view of truth is a dangerous, divisive tactic. It serves to further polarize our nation, and it disenfranchises and demonizes good people of faith who hold political beliefs that differ from theirs.

“To brand any group of American citizens as ‘anti-Christian’ simply because they differ on political issues runs counter to the values of both faith and democracy. It is especially disheartening when that accusation is aimed at fellow Christians. The National Council of Churches encompasses more than 45 million believers across a broad spectrum of theology and politics who work together on issues important to our society. If they disagree with Senator Frist’s political positions, are these 45 million Christians now considered ‘anti-Christian’?

“In the spirit of 1 Timothy 6:3-5, we urge Senator Frist and the Family Research Council to reconsider their plan. We will be praying for the Lord to minister to them and change their hearts so that they will not continue to take our nation down this destructive path.”


The 36 member demoninations of the NCC are:

  *  African Methodist Episcopal Church
  * The African Methodist Episcopal Zion Church
  * Alliance of Baptists
  * American Baptist Churches in the USA
  * The Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America
  * Diocese of the Armenian Church of America
  * Christian Church (Disciples of Christ)
  * Christian Methodist Episcopal Church
  * Church of the Brethren
  * The Coptic Orthodox Church in North America
  * The Episcopal Church
  * Evangelical Lutheran Church in America
  * Friends United Meeting
  * Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America
  * Hungarian Reformed Church in America
  * International Council of Community Churches
  * Korean Presbyterian Church in America
  * Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church
  * Mar Thoma Church
  * Moravian Church in America Northern Province and Southern Province
  * National Baptist Convention of America

  * National Baptist Convention, U.S.A., Inc.
  * National Missionary Baptist Convention of America
  * Orthodox Church in America
  * Patriarchal Parishes of the Russian Orthodox Church in the USA
  * Philadelphia Yearly Meeting of the Religious Society of Friends
  * Polish National Catholic Church of America
  * Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.)
  * Progressive National Baptist Convention, Inc.
  * Reformed Church in America
  * Serbian Orthodox Church in the U.S.A. and Canada
  * The Swedenborgian Church
  * Syrian Orthodox Church of Antioch
  * Ukrainian Orthodox Church of America
  * United Church of Christ
  * The United Methodist Church

  Bill Frist is a Presbyterian!

Don’t you just love it? They are like a pack of back-biting pack of wild dogs
Maybe they will start a religious war and kill each other off.

Stay Well

Wot

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Posted: 24 April 2005 09:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]  
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This kind of thing is just sad.

It wasn’t that long ago that the Republicans and the religious right were accusing “liberal” judges of legislating from the bench.  They often ran on “strict constructionist” platforms.

Well, as is often the case, people seem to accuse other people of what is in their hearts.  As it turns out, the right wing judiciary is set to be far more aggressive when it comes to legislating from the bench than their supposed left wing counterparts ever were.

So, for any hardcore right-wingers that might stumble across this, listen well:  Sure, a majority of Americans might seem to believe as you do, inasmuch as they claim that they believe the Bible, but believe me, they don’t actually believe as you do.  They believe the Bible, because they think that it is right, but they don’t actually know what it says.  The truth is, that most of them simply want to go to a somewhat nice home after a not too hard day of work, to a decent meal, and a beer or four, and loving kids who have medical care, and college in their future, and ultimately retire to bed with an attractive supporting spouse who is equally libidinous.

These people, by in large, are already sorely dissapointed with their lives.  When they find out that their cherished cultural traditions have been hijacked by rabid minority who have squandered the nation’s resources to the point of dashing their dreams of pleasant normalcy far into the conceivable future, they are going to be pissed.  Get them pissed enough, and there will be a revolt.  When the rvolution comes, guess who is going to be first against the wall?

Because, you see, these people only believe the Bible because they have a foggy notion that following people who follow what is in those ancient pages is what will give their children the life that they don’t quite have.  So, in truth, they only thing that these people believe in, is their lives and the lives of their children.

Mandate?  You don’t have a ****ing mandate, you have a time bomb!

-Matt

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Posted: 25 April 2005 01:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]  
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[quote author=“TheChampion”] The state should would be wise to keep the gap between church and state very slim.

The wider the gap gets between church and state, the more likely we will remove ourselves from God’s blessing and incur his judgement.

It’s high time that we change “We the People of the United States do ordain and establish this Constitution…”

to something that recognizes God’s power and blessings:

Article 1

The form of government of the United States will be that of a Republic, endorsed by the people of the United States on the basis of their longstanding belief in the sovereignty and truth of the Bible.

Article 2
The Republic of the United States is a system based on belief in:

    1. God and his exclusive sovereignty and the right to legislate, and the necessity of submission to His commands;
    2.Divine revelation and its fundamental role in setting forth the laws;
    3.the return of Jesus, and the constructive role of this belief in the course of man’s ascent;
    4.the justice of God in creation and legislation;
    5.continuous leadership of Jesus and his perpetual guidance
    6.the exalted dignity and value of man, and his freedom coupled with responsibility before God; in which equity, justice, political, economic, social, and cultural independence, and national solidarity are secured.

=======

So, Champ, what would you change in the above?

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Posted: 25 April 2005 02:00 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]  
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The first ammendment nedds change as well. Here is my proposed wording:

Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, nor shall the Government employ any force to quell conflicts among religious factions; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.


Stay Well

Wot

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Posted: 25 April 2005 02:54 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]  
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WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A plane trip to London and Scotland in 2000 by beleaguered House Majority Leader Tom DeLay was charged to a credit card issued to a Washington lobbyist who is the subject of a federal probe, the Washington Post reported on Sunday.

The report adds another question to a series confronting DeLay in recent weeks about ties to lobbyists, foreign trips funded by outside groups and use of campaign funds, and increases political pressure on the Texas congressman.

The holder of the American Express credit card was Jack Abramoff, who at the time was employed by the lobbying firm Preston Gates & Ellis, according to the report, which cited two sources who know his credit card account number and a copy of a travel invoice.

Other expenses from the same trip such as food, phone calls and other items were billed to a different credit card used by a second registered Washington lobbyist, Edwin Buckham, the report said, citing receipts documenting that part of the trip.

The report raises questions about how much DeLay, who was then-House Majority Whip, knew or did not know of the financial and logistic arrangements provided by registered lobbyists.

Under House ethics rules, lawmakers are prohibited from accepting the payment of trips and related expenses from registered lobbyists.

DeLay has denied wrongdoing in connection with other recent questions about travel, lobbyist and campaign funding issues.

He has also been criticized for denouncing judges who refused to intervene in the case of Terri Schiavo, who was in a persistent vegetative state, after a court ordered her feeding tube removed.

‘NO EVIDENCE’

Last year he was admonished by a House ethics committee on three separate matters involving what critics say were strong-arm political tactics.

“As the majority leader has always said, he believed at the time and continues to believe the trip to the U.K. was funded by the National Center For Public Policy Research,” DeLay’s attorney, Bobby Burchfield, told Reuters.

Burchfield said DeLay’s staff was aware that Preston Gates was attempting to set up meetings and hotels for the trip.

In the Sunday newspaper report, DeLay’s then-chief of staff, Susan Hirschmann, confirmed that his congressional office was in direct contact with Preston Gates about the trip itinerary before his departure from Dulles International Airport to London in May 2000.

But Burchfield said: “There is no evidence whatsoever that the majority leader or his staff knew of the logistics of how the funding was occurring at the time.

“That is not inconsistent with what the National Center has said all along, which is, it funded the trip.”

Abramoff was a board member of the National Center for Public Policy Research, Burchfield said.

Last month the Washington Post reported that the nonprofit group was the recipient of donations made by an Indian tribe and a gambling services company that covered most of the expenses declared by participants.

The group opposed the Internet gambling bill pending before the House and DeLay’s attorney repeated on Sunday that his vote against the bill was unrelated to the payments.

The Washington Post’s Sunday story said a copy of the invoice shows that the itinerary for DeLay’s trip was prepared by a travel service in Seattle and was sent to Preston Gates on May 23, 2000, for business class tickets on Continental Airlines and British Airways that cost $6,938.70.

So much for the notion that Christianity= morality.

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Posted: 25 April 2005 03:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]  
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[quote author=“Anonymous”]But JL, how astute of you to suggest a solution which is already a given.  Isn’t this the current state of the world?

***
In a very indirect way, yes.

I’m talking good old-fashioned religious war.  More hyped up talk and action for the spiritual monopoly on the world’s monotheists.

JL

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Posted: 25 April 2005 06:53 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]  
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Here is a VERY interesting and insightful liberal analysis of the current status of the split in the conservative movement with which I (mostly) agree.

http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?i=20050502&s=sullivan050205

It is a fairly long peice but well worth the read.

It describes the widening gap between “conservatives of faith” and “conservatives of doubt”.  Basically between the fundies and the rest of us.

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Posted: 25 April 2005 12:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]  
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[quote author=“Conservative Atheist”]Here is a VERY interesting and insightful liberal analysis of the current status of the split in the conservative movement with which I (mostly) agree.

...the widening gap between “conservatives of faith” and “conservatives of doubt”.  Basically between the fundies and the rest of us.

On a similar note, I saw Kevin Ring, author of “Scalia Dissents” on CSPAN’s BookTV the other day. He gave a very compelling speech, especially with regard to accusations of “judicial activism” that have been levelled recently by christian fundamentalists and members of congress. Recently, I’ve begun developing a grudging respect for Justice Antonin Scalia and this speech helped reinforce it. I would recommend watching this speech to anyone, no matter what your political stripes, so look for it. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to come up on CSPAN’s website, so I’m not sure how to locate it.

The author impressed me as one of those old-school conservatives, not these new power-mad “neocon” pseudoconservatives. I have respect for the old-school conservatives. [rant]I can’t stand this new breed that has taken over the republican party. I remember when Bob Dole was running against Clinton, I didn’t really mind the idea of Bob Dole becoming president. At least both major candidates were clearly intent on bringing the country together, win or lose. These new guys are all about turning our country against itself.[/rant]

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Posted: 25 April 2005 12:51 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]  
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What parent in their right mind would not want their young children in a Catholic school these days? The demand is great for their services.

Who would you entrust your children’s education to? Public school, mostly staffed by historical revisionists who omit the impact of Christianity to western culture, and instill the concept of no moral absolutes.

Or….a Catholic School that gives a balanced curriculum that contains foundational moral and spiritual beliefs? Is not the most balanced people the ones who have all bases covered, including a spiritual and moral foundation?

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Posted: 25 April 2005 02:16 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]  
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[quote author=“TheChampion”]What parent in their right mind would not want their young children in a Catholic school these days? The demand is great for their services.

Who would you entrust your children’s education to? Public school, mostly staffed by historical revisionists who omit the impact of Christianity to western culture, and instill the concept of no moral absolutes.

Or….a Catholic School that gives a balanced curriculum that contains foundational moral and spiritual beliefs? Is not the most balanced people the ones who have all bases covered, including a spiritual and moral foundation?

Most public schools don’t have the funding to buy up-to-date textbooks or first-rate teachers. That’s the primary reason public schools have a bad reputation. It has little or nothing to do with the lack of christian dogma inserted into the curriculum. If you object to omitting the impact of christianity on western culture, then you should object to omitting the impact of paganism, islamism or eastern philosophy on western culture, as well. Of course, I predict you’re going to say something along the lines of “How absurd! What impact are you talking about?!”  And that will perfectly demonstrate my point.

If you want to teach about christian influence on western civilization (or civilization in general), then in the spirit of true academic and intellectual honesty, you have to teach about the impact of all the religions on western civilization. You also have to tell about impacts that don’t show christianity or other religions in a good light. The Inquisition and the Crusades come to mind. Otherwise, you are just proselytizing christianity. Our country is saturated with non-governmental agents freely engaged in proselytizing their religious beliefs, especially christianity, and they are well within their rights to do so. The wisdom of the authors of our Constitution prohibits governmental agents from participating in such proselytization.

If you want to teach the influence of christianity on western civilization, then do so in the context of the influence of all religions that had a significant influence on western civilization.

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Posted: 25 April 2005 03:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]  
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I am not a big fan of commondreams.org, but this piece, new tonight, hits it right on the head!  I love the references to Madison and Jefferson. 

 

And if you slog through that, here’s something on the lighter side:

 

Pete

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Posted: 25 April 2005 05:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]  
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But I think Christianity has by far the biggest impact of the thing you’ve mentioned. So I think it should be given special treatment, extra time, or whatever.

Hey, side note, you mentioned the Crusades and such, I think that history shows there were problems on all sides. Bottom line is that we as believers have to show the love of Jesus to our fellow man. If past generations failed to do so, shame on them. But can’t blame the message of the gospel, it has not changed, though men change like the wind blows.

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Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light. Matt 11:28-29

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