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Real Armagedon?
Posted: 27 April 2005 04:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]  
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Only problem is, hydrogen technology is way off.  Not only that, guess where hydrogen comes from - natural gas, one of Bush’s constituents.

Humm, is water (H20) not two parts hydrogen? Or 66.6% hydrogen? Oh NO! 666! water is evil! May oxygen prevail for eternity! rolleyes  Kinda like carbon with its 6 electrons, 6 protons and 6 neutrons. We have been dubbed by ET’s as carbon units, guess that means we’re evil units.  rolleyes  rolleyes  rolleyes

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Posted: 27 April 2005 08:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]  
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[quote author=“fencesitter”]

Only problem is, hydrogen technology is way off.  Not only that, guess where hydrogen comes from - natural gas, one of Bush’s constituents.

Humm, is water (H20) not two parts hydrogen? Or 66.6% hydrogen? Oh NO! 666! water is evil! May oxygen prevail for eternity! rolleyes  Kinda like carbon with its 6 electrons, 6 protons and 6 neutrons. We have been dubbed by ET’s as carbon units, guess that means we’re evil units.  rolleyes  rolleyes  rolleyes

Humerous, I suppose, but pointless.  Currently the majority of hydrogen production is based on reformation of natural gas, methane CH4.  Electrolysis is very inefficient and requires electrical energy that is produced mostly by - you guessed it - burning hydrocarbon fuels.  It takes about 2.5 btus of energy to produce 1 btu of hydrogen (for a fuel
cell) when the source is methane.  It takes about 4 btus for every btu of energy produced by electrolysis.

Here is the real point.  A hydrogen economy is a long way off, and doesn’t alleviate the need to consume hydrocarbons in the forseeable future.

Now what were you saying?

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Posted: 27 April 2005 08:25 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]  
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[quote author=“TheChampion”]Talk to the folks in Colorado who just had a snow storm in April. Global warming….ya right. ha ha ha.

Hey, I heard a report that indeed, a lot of glaciers are melting. But the scientific data was that the glaciers were not affect my mankind’s activity. There was a loss as to explain the dilemma. However, environmental wackos can take it and run with it for the purpose of eliminating the combustion engine. Anybody want to carry your groceries on a bike today????

Serious question: Is this guy drunk or what?  Can anyone else parse his sentences? I mean, he scares me.

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Posted: 27 April 2005 09:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]  
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CA,

First, let me congratulate you on living so long.  Anyone who met Oppenheimer as an adult must be getting up there in years.  I (and I mean this honestly) venerate you for the life experiences you have had.  However, I respectfully submitt on this issue you are mistaken.  I am also tempted to take you on for your tag line, but that will have to wait for a future post.

[quote author=“Conservative Atheist”]Guest # 2

Please go back and carefully read my last post and your response again.

I did.  You said:
[quote author=“CA”]
Global warming/climate change is either a huge problem or…………. it isn’t.

While a growing number of scientists are warning about global warming, only a few years ago, many of these same scientists were forecasting another immanent ice age. Other well respected scientists downplay the current apparent warming trends as part of the natural cycle of heating and cooling that the earth has undergone numerous times throughout its history.

Explain to us who these well respected scientist are.  The oil/coal/auto industry has marched out a few non-well respected so-called scientists over the years, paid them handsomly, and they have “raised questions” in an attempt to obsfucate.  One of the books I referenced: Leggett, J. (2001). “The Carbon War”, gives a detailed account of who the “reputable scientists” are and what they did to undermine the negotiations on carbon reductions.

[quote =“CA”]
I tried to lay out the perspective from the layman’s viewpoint without ANY political spin.  Nothing that I posted came from the Whitehouse.  It was strictly my interpretation of the reporting that has appeared in the main stream press.

Wait a minute. Are you a layman or a physicist?

The verbiage you use is exactly what is coming out of the bush whitehouse.  It was written by the coal and oil industry lobbyists. The mainstream press gets a hardon when they get quotes from that source.  You are extreamly naive to believe that Nightly News or Fox News is a good source of balanced reporting.

[quote author=“CA”]
Virtually every article in the press contains both the global warming lobby position and the skeptic’s views.  I stand by my assessment that, to the man in the street, it looks like science is totally divided on the issue of global warming and, in addition, has relatively little credibility with the public.

Lets try to get one thing straight.  There is no such thing as the “global warming lobby”. There are environmentalist lobbies who you might be referring to.  But the scientists who actually do this work for a living are not lobbying.  The Union of Concerned Scientists comes the closest to a “lobby” but ask yourself, what are they selling.  Survival of humanity is the correct answer.

Now ask yourself why does it seem that scientist are divided.  Is it because scientists ARE divided? No.  The literature list I provided you will show that this is not the case.  The reason “the man in the street” is confused is because the real lobbies (the folks who have something to sell and make a profit from) have coerced, or more likely simply convinced, the current administration that saying that scientists are divided should quell the storm.  You, my friend, seem to be a victim of this propaganda.  Are you a “man in the street”?

The “mainstream media” are easily deluded for the simple reason that they have no one who is capable of making a critical judgement on these issues.  The average “science” reporter is lucky to have a college degree in biology.  They are, furthermore, eager to feed at the trough of the administration news conference.  They will take any bone the admin throws them.  If you want to get science news then read Nature, or Science or Scientific American.

[quote author=“CA”]
One of the reasons that the environmental lobby has so little credibility with the public is that they have taken very strident positions on thousands of relatively trivial issues that the public simply does not take seriously.  How many jokes have you heard about the Gnat-Catcher holding up highways, housing, etc. in California?

So you are talking about environmentalist, not climate scientists, after all. I’ll make no excuses for activists who care about nature.  I think they serve a useful purpose, but can we please stick to science?

[quote author=“CA”]
Their hand-wringing over oil drilling in Alaska while people are paying $3.00 for gas at the pump and the caribou herds are thriving is another example of credibility gone down the toilet.

And your proof about the caribou herds is??? Actually I am rather liking the high price of gas.  At least it starts to be honest about what things cost.  Again, I will not make excuses for environmentalist claims.  But here is a real critical question.  Exactly how much additional oil do you think ANWR will produce?  Do you really believe drilling in Alaska is a solution?  If so then you had better take the time to read more of the books on the recommended reading list.  The ones on oil, incidentally, are by physicists - right up your alley.

[quote author=“CA”]
I am trying to tell you that the global warming science community has failed to effectively communicate and make their case with the man on the street (and with a lot of politicians).  You may want to blame that on Bush and Karl Rove but they have really been relatively silent on this topic.

The burden of proof and the responsibility to convince the politicians and the public rests squarely with the scientists who believe that they have the supporting evidence.

I’ve already responded somewhat to this point.  The scientist have done their jobs, and are continuing to do so.  It is the politicians who have failed.  We elect people we think are smart enough to understand the science and technology so that they can formulate sensible policy.  Turns out to be a false faith! (I had to get us back to Sam’s points!!!)

[quote author=“CA”]
Many years ago when I was a young math/physics student, I had the opportunity to meet and spend a couple of days with Robert Oppenheimer the father of the atomic bomb.  I asked him what he found to be the most difficult aspect of the Manhattan Project.  He said that it was trying to communicate the implications of the science to the politicians and the military and for the politicians, generals and the scientists to mutually understand the military and political impact of the weapon and its potential use. 

He said that, although each community had a sincere and vital interest in understanding the other, they had great difficulty and ultimately failed to effectively communicate because they essentially spoke different languages.

You may want to read “Hiroshima : Why America Dropped the Atomic Bomb” by Ronald Takaki to see why the politicians failed to speak the same language as the scientists.  Take a close look at Harry Truman’s background and motives (as revealed in letters to his mother and wife). The fact is that the politicians are happy to take on the responsibility for formulating policy.  If they are incapable of understanding the science then they should get the hell out of the business.  That is, if we want a world that uses science and technology for the benefit of humanity.

[quote author=“CA”]
You may not like my opinion but, as a relatively scientifically aware layman with degrees in mathematics and physics, I have not yet seen anything definitive on this topic in the public press that was both convincing and unbiased.

Keyword here is relatively. Then read the scientific press.

[quote author=“CA”]
On the other hand, your response to my post was totally political.  It was Bush this, Whitehouse that, Coal/Oil company’s payroll, etc, etc.  It looks like you put my post through your environmentally biased filter and read something that I did not write.  Frankly, I expected better.

Now it seems you should re-read my post!
[quote author=“CA”]
I am perfectly willing to read unbiased scientific studies, opinions and debates on the issues that present both sides fairly.  However, don’t send me one-sided articles from environmental lobbyists who are trying to push their political agendas.

Both sides?  What both sides?  How can there be two sides to a scientific consensus.  As Salerio has pointed out, the facts stand on their own.  There aren’t two sides in a debate.  The science is clear.  The fact that you entertain a notion of two sides speaks volumes (and also explains a great deal about your chosen tag line).

The suggested reading list contains books and articles from TRULY reputable scientists. There are no environmental lobbyists in the bunch.

Frankly I think you are providing evidence of why conservatives are going to be the bane of the world.  Knee-jerk reactions. Wild assumptions before even looking at the evidence.  Pure ideology.

Again I want to know, what is your point?  If you do not contest global warming, then why complain about scientists not convincing the common man?  What about you?  If you can see the problem, why don’t you lift a finger to inform the common man?

Oh, by the way, did I mention that the mainstream news has its head up its *ss?
[quote author=“CA”]
It is still my opinion that the resource contention conflicts are a much more near-term “real and present danger” than the potential global warming or environmental damage that might eventually occur.

And it is still my contention that regardless of whatever skirmishes ensue, that if the world is uninhabitable - in the long run - what the f**k difference does it make?  And, if you ever get around to actually reading any of the analyses that I provided, you might find that the various resourse issues are, right now, being impacted by the effects of global warming.  On the other hand, if you prefer to believe our president…
[quote author=“CA”]
BTW, I predict that if and when I ever get around to telling you my proposed solutions to these difficulties, you will like them considerably less than you cared for my previous post.

Ohhhh. I can’t wait.  For someone who seems not able to recognize the actual situation, the claim that he has a solution seems a bit bizzare.

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Posted: 28 April 2005 12:13 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]  
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Here is the real point.  A hydrogen economy is a long way off, and doesn’t alleviate the need to consume hydrocarbons in the forseeable future.

Now what were you saying?

Please excuse my pointless humour. I think we have to find a way to obtain hydrogen from water in a way that doesn’t leave us with negative btu’s NOW

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Posted: 28 April 2005 02:44 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]  
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[quote author=“Anonymous”]

Here is the real point.  A hydrogen economy is a long way off, and doesn’t alleviate the need to consume hydrocarbons in the forseeable future.

Now what were you saying?

Please excuse my pointless humour. I think we have to find a way to obtain hydrogen from water in a way that doesn’t leave us with negative btu’s NOW

Interesting.  Can’t tell if this is a guest talking to himself or what.

Anyway, my understanding of hydrogen generation is that it always takes far more energy to create H2, whether from electrolysis or from reformation, than you get at the point of use.  No energy is FREE.  The above guest’s desire to get hydrogen NOW without loosing energy would go against the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics.  As I understand it the most effecient method is to reform CH4 and produce CO2 as a by-product. 

I saw a nice little book on the “hype” behind hydrogen technology.  I’ll see if I can dig it up and pass it onto this board.  Bottom line is my reading suggests it is not going to save our behinds.

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Posted: 28 April 2005 04:14 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]  
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Very Nice Guest #2.

I couldn’t have tried to point out better the distinction between the nut case enviromentalist lobbies, the scientists paid by the oil/gas lobbies, and the real scientists.

If you follow the money, which you should always do in the case of US news and government, you will see the majority of the economic forces would be injured by an energy policy that took global warming seriously, and on the other side, no one is making any money by saying global warming is a problem.

Also, in some of the models I have seen, climate change is the better definition, because the overall effects don’t seem to show “warmer” all over, that is a misconception of the general public.

I am no scientist, but in El Nino years we get more whacky weather, mostly rain out of season.  When there are massive fires or volcanic eruptions, we get snow in the winter.  Since they are using Ice cores from the artic and antartic to plot prior weather conditions on the earth back for thousands of years, including air bubbles trapped in the ice to determine the atmosphere, I tend to think this science is probably good and getting better.

It seems from the latest I have seen, the warming of the oceans is the trigger to alot of the climate changes.  More storms, more violent ones, changes in wind currents, changes in ocean currents, that have a myriad of effects on weather.

CA lives in California, he knows all about El Nino.

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Posted: 28 April 2005 03:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]  
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[quote author=“Iisbliss”]Also, in some of the models I have seen, climate change is the better definition, because the overall effects don’t seem to show “warmer” all over, that is a misconception of the general public.

Iisbliss,

The use of the term “climate change”, as opposed to “global warming”, was adopted by some activists for exactly the reason you mention.  There are actually two groups of scientist at work here.  Physicists, and atmospheric and oceanographic scientist are working on global warming which means the global average annual temperature.  They are modelling the effects of the recent history of rising CO2 in the atmosphere.  It is a fact that the arctic region is warming up faster than the rest of the globe,  which might confuse some people, but when averaged over both space and time, the mean surface temperature of the Earth is rising.

The other group of scientist is the paleo- and modern climatologists who are, in the first case, confirming the atmospheric and oceanographic models by showing historical and current effects of warming on the climate.  The infamous predictions about the disruption of the Gulf Stream currents and subsequent cooling of Europe (in the extreme case shown in the movie “The Day After Tomorrow”!) are what these folks do for a living.

So both global warming and climate change are valid terms.  But the activisits have been pushing the latter to emphasize what is going to happen (we think) if the warming continues.

I wonder if CA lives in Southern Calif.  That is where the real effects of El Nino are felt.  This last winter was a good example.

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Posted: 29 April 2005 03:03 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]  
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I promised to post the name of the book that I read re: hydrogen. Here it is.
Romm, J.J., “The Hype about Hydrogen”. In spite of the title I thought he did a very responsible job of covering the physics and technology of the subject.  Bottom line seems to be that we shouldn’t hold our breathes for this as a panacea.

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Posted: 29 April 2005 03:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]  
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[quote author=“Ed”]I promised to post the name of the book that I read re: hydrogen. Here it is.
Romm, J.J., “The Hype about Hydrogen”. In spite of the title I thought he did a very responsible job of covering the physics and technology of the subject.  Bottom line seems to be that we shouldn’t hold our breathes for this as a panacea.

Ed- if not hydrogen, then what?

wind, tidal, hydro, solar, geothermal, what else?

What is going to solve our energy crisis? All of the above?

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Posted: 29 April 2005 03:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]  
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[quote author=“fencesitter”][quote author=“Ed”]I promised to post the name of the book that I read re: hydrogen. Here it is.
Romm, J.J., “The Hype about Hydrogen”. In spite of the title I thought he did a very responsible job of covering the physics and technology of the subject.  Bottom line seems to be that we shouldn’t hold our breathes for this as a panacea.

Ed- if not hydrogen, then what?

wind, tidal, hydro, solar, geothermal, what else?

What is going to solve our energy crisis? All of the above?

Much as I hate to say it, I doubt that anything is going to solve the energy crisis in the sense of allowing us to continue consuming energy the way we have.  We need to develop all of these technologies, certainly, but the sad fact is that we are overpopulated and are overconsuming and I don’t think there is a magic solution.  My advice is to dress warmly and get used to walking!

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Posted: 03 May 2005 04:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]  
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Hi-
I have no scientific background so please don’t think I’m asking questions stupidly!
Can we use cooking oil for diesel engines? Everyone? I know that 100% used filtered cooking oil is used now in diesel engines. Only problem was preheating oil in colder weather/climates. No modification of the engines/design needed.
Can hemp oil or corn oil be used? We can grow that.
Where in our economy is the most oil used?  Are vehicles the biggest problem?
Thanks

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Posted: 04 May 2005 05:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]  
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Willie Nelson is driving around Texas in a bus powered with diesel fuel made from corn.

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