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9/11 Politics
Posted: 26 April 2005 01:25 PM   [ Ignore ]  
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This news story popped up on my MSN homepage. 

Maggie Gyllenhaal Tackles 9/11 Politics

Gyllenhaal is not the first to mention that the States and the western world bear some responsibility for 9/11.  Our former Prime Minister, Jean Chr├ętien, made a similar statement on the one year anniversary. 

Since we're discussing reason vs causality under the Faith thread, I was curious how you guys view the reasons or causes behind the attacks.

Susan

PS to SkepticX ... if the weblink works, thanks!  Credit goes to your url tutorial smile

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Posted: 26 April 2005 02:25 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]  
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My biggest (maybe only) disappointment with The End of Faith was that Sam did not tie the ends together regarding this issue, nor did he make much mention of the likelihood, however small, that the Bush administration had foreknowledge of (or even planned) the attacks.  (These may be fringe views, but some have been surprisingly, frighteningly compelling.)
Sam makes it more evident to me that Islam has a set of tenets that, when taken literally (as the Christians of the Middle Ages took their wacky scripture literally), spell Holy War in no uncertain terms.  This extremism is certainly a part of the blame, if we are to accept the basic premises regarding the attacks—i.e. that they were perpetrated by Islamists under the Taliban or Bin Laden, and not with impetus from our own extremists here at home.
Regardless, there is clearly a conflict, and extreme action on both sides seems responsible.  Even a rational person could argue that the US and its allies have been responsible for much poorly-directed bloodshed in the Islamic world.  Factor in our cultural imperialism and the paranoid, insane views of religious zealots, and terrorism is not a surprising consequence.
The “blame,” then, is directly on those responsible, but in part on all those who propagated policies that were not only extreme and destructive, but also apparently ignorant of who exactly we were acting against.
We should have known, and we could have worked towards more diplomatic solutions and even economics solutions before the violence to which we have invariably leapt.
Much here could surely be argued, enhanced, or refuted.  I’ll see what people have to say before belaboring things further.

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Posted: 27 April 2005 07:24 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]  
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I think it’s inspiring that she has found a point on which Jerry Falwell, Osama Bin Laden and Ward Churchill can all agree.

Talk about a multi-lateral alliance!

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Posted: 27 April 2005 10:33 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]  
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Since we’re discussing reason vs causality under the Faith thread, I was curious how you guys view the reasons or causes behind the attacks.

I tend to gravitate towards occams razor or ockham’s razor.
Perhaps because of my limited “first shelf” vocabulary. Plus it’s quicker to reply rather than looking in the dictionary for “smart” words. So…

The reason for 9/11 and the cause of 9/11 was FEAR.

Whether it be the fear that leads to religion, fear of not having enough, fear of the unknown. It ALL boils down to fear. Dr. King said it all.

That being said, 9/11 was closer to being caused by the fear of red white and blue.

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Posted: 27 April 2005 11:12 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]  
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My biggest disappointment in Sam is that he even took the time to write The End of Faith. By categorizing people of faith as dangerous, he took a hit to his credibility. Are the ministers and nuns on the mission field dangerous? He should have lauded the sacrifices of the Joe-average people of faith who have gave up their very lifes to help people.

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Posted: 27 April 2005 11:26 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]  
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If you, Champ, could possibly have read TEoF with an open mind, you may have learned to question your beliefs.  And you may have noticed that Sam quite rightly points out that the medium of religion is incidental; in its absence, there would be no shortage of reasons to do good for people—and this good might entail ideas like educating those in poverty-stricken lands of the benefits of family planning.  The missionaries may provide bandaids, but often they are worsening the overall problems with their dogma.
Factor in all the good done by people without the excuse of religion and all the blatant evil done by those in the name of God (a God just as legitimate as the benevolent one in which you may choose to believe), and one should really find a way to at least consider Sam’s arguments.
And I stand by the notion that the fear of damnation is an absurd reason to avoid wrongdoing.  A rational person sees plenty of real, evident reasons for helping/not hurting others.
It is sad that you and so many other seemingly educated people cannot even put their faith-based assumptions aside for a second, and cannot accept that they may only believe the things they believe because of dogma and indoctrination.
Can you not even accept the potential validity of well-reasoned arguments that do not rely on mythology for support?

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Posted: 27 April 2005 11:36 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]  
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My biggest disappointment in Sam is that he even took the time to write The End of Faith. By categorizing people of faith as dangerous, he took a hit to his credibility

I can’t believe that even you believe this to be a fact!  The people responsible for 9/11, the theme of this thread, were people of faith!  Dont you get that?

You fundies differ from Osama only in degree, and if you ever get the theocracy you are trying for, you probably wont have any differences.

The last time you folks were in charge, you burned people like me!  Do you think for a minute I am going to stand by and let you get another shot?  Dont come on with your “kindler gentler” jesus crap!  The popes and bishops in the middle ages spouted the same garbage, and the story is very, very plain. 

Now we even have a nazi pope! 

Pete

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Posted: 27 April 2005 11:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]  
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AA, “The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.”

hampsteadpete, I am not speaking about people of faith in general. I am specifically talking about Christian people of faith. Christians are commanded to do good works. Not for salvation, but because of salvation and to glorify God. How can God be gloried today? Probably by giving food to the hungry, cloths to the poor, etc. Would that be dangerous to you?

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Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light. Matt 11:28-29

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Posted: 27 April 2005 12:03 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]  
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[quote author=“TheChampion”]AA, “The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.”

Why do I feel that fear of a lord is the end of wisdom?

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Posted: 27 April 2005 12:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]  
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But the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to those who are called it is the power of God unto salvation.

My dear Fencesitter, perhaps you should peruse the holy scriptures and familiarize yourself with the basics. It might be food for the soul. grin

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Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light. Matt 11:28-29

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Posted: 27 April 2005 12:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]  
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hampsteadpete, I am not speaking about people of faith in general. I am specifically talking about Christian people of faith. Christians are commanded to do good works. Not for salvation, but because of salvation and to glorify God. How can God be gloried today? Probably by giving food to the hungry, cloths to the poor, etc. Would that be dangerous to you?

I will say again:  that “kinder, gentler, jesus crap” does’nt wash.  Your cults record speaks for itself, as does the record for all faiths.  Ask the early greeks, ask anyone who didnt “believe” during the first 1500 years of the christian church.  Ask the American Indians, ask the thousands of Africans who are being systematically murdered by your “kinder gentler” missionaries who are witholding the devices that could save their lives.

You killed, and are killing them all!  Does that frighten me?  YES it does.  Enough so that I will spend every dollar I have against the election of one more “person of faith” to any position of power.

Do you get it now?  I dont want to hear any more of your rot, you have a record, and it speaks for itself.

Pete

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Posted: 27 April 2005 12:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]  
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The early Christians were mercilessly butchered and murdered by the governing powers. But the early church won the battle by faith, until Christianity was the accepted religion around the world.

When you talk about killing, you must be referring to the dark ages. Yes, there were very bad things that occurred during the dark ages. Once the common man began to read the bible for himself, EVERYTHING changed (thank you Martin Luther). You must be familiar with the reformation?

Thank God for the printing press, eh?

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Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light. Matt 11:28-29

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Posted: 27 April 2005 12:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]  
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[quote author=“TheChampion”]But the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to those who are called it is the power of God unto salvation.

My dear Fencesitter, perhaps you should peruse the holy scriptures and familiarize yourself with the basics. It might be food for the soul. grin

Dude, I don’t have a soul. “Soul” doesn’t exist. Pursuance of the holy scriptures is the biggest waste of time since god. I might as well pursue comic books.

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Posted: 27 April 2005 12:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]  
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Obviously, you’re not even on the fence. You’re lost. But hope is a prayer away.

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Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light. Matt 11:28-29

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Posted: 27 April 2005 12:27 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]  
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[quote author=“TheChampion”]Obviously, you’re not even on the fence. You’re lost. But hope is a prayer away.

Obviously, I’m further from lost than you could even imagine. Reason is just a thought away.

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Posted: 27 April 2005 12:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]  
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Twas not obvious, but I’m not the judge. The mere fact that you call yourself Fencesitter means that you lean our direction. What is holding you back?

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Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light. Matt 11:28-29

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